ness

Just on your comments BC4ME re Steve - I guess that was part of my motive for posting. Its no real secret that the initial suggestion re a workshop was driven by my own personal curiosity/interest. I have also been around a number of dog trainers over the past 9 and a half years and had the good fortune of lucking into advice and a friendship with some of Australia's top obedience competitors. I'd have been lost without all of what I have been given to date. I guess I posted on here because I wanted to see if anybody had come across a similar issue and if they had tried anything I hadn't and whether in my quest to have a prey driven dog (my older one has always been super foodie) I was some how using a "drive" that might not necessarily be suited to the particular situation. Everything posted in this thread however has only confirmed my original thoughts though. I guess I thought the potential for using food drive might have been a better idea then I would have considered that. I still think food drive is more easily manipulated then toy drive.

Beans Seekback - Beans Directed Jumping - Beans Signals Heelwork -

Yep Vickie - thats not a surprise as I have heard that before as well and had that discussion with another friend of mine. Something to do with the way anxiety and drive are wired into the brain. Bit of a catch 22 and I do believe that is in part what kicked into her brain in the freestyle in Sydney, and really about 3/4 of the way through the first HTM routine. She isn't quite ready for an agility trial so it will be interesting to see what happens there when it comes to having a strange judge and whether it is reflected in how she performs. I suspect it will be one of these things that I have to work through and have no expectations when she is finally trained to the standard I want prior to entering her. Agility will certainly I hope be less problematic then obedience.

That is on the list of things to do JulesP but at the moment I am biding my time until I am told - well until the seminar but doesn't stop me posing the question does it. I have read through topics started by other people and they always raise interesting questions that sparked my interest further so thought maybe I could post a topic and do the same. And it was consideration of looking at starting some drive work that actually sparked my motivation for this thread - which if we come back to my original post was to do with the use of food verses prey and whether it might be worth trying to manipulate some food motivation if that is what she was happier with when she was anxious. As threads do we sort of lost the original train of argument.

Wahoo go Soaks .

Very true Vickie and if you had said I'd have her first title on her abet a freestyle title (or she would have travelled interstate and actually passed a trial) this time last year I probably would have said nope your having me on, pull the other one . Life is seriously to short to dwell on all the negatives and she gives great cuddles and really does enjoy life most of the time and I couldn't picture my life without her regardless of what issues she might have.

Your totally right there Vickie. I guess I sometimes have doubts as to whether I am assessing things correctly or whether its because I "wanted" a dog with more drive. She is different in personality to Ness - there is no doubting that but I think I had a part to play in encouraging what I wanted in the beginning. She has enough drive to always be up for a game but more importantly has a biddable personality and wants to work which I think is more the point then how much drive she may or may not have.

Tassie.

Ah ok Seita - gotcha. I knew I had also referred to her taking treats off strangers so wasn't sure if you meant that bit. I would say there is a condition response. Sometimes when she takes the food I don't think she is conscious of having made the decision to eat. Towards the middle of last year we did some work of going to the local shopping centre and me getting her out of the car and standing around and just feeding her until I loaded her back in the car. I have also been giving Vickie's comment some more thought and maybe she isn't high drive after all . I suppose drive is a relative quantity and I guess Kenz is more driven then my older one so maybe to me she seems "higher" drive and maybe she isn't really at all .

Nah Tassie you just need me to come with you and I could be the baby sitter .

V wrote: Why do you think it's genetic? Have you observed the same from other dogs with the same breeding? I have been told it probably is. I have witnessed similar behavior in her litter sister but not to the same degree. Kenzie is the worst of them but the rest are also a lot lower key. None of them seem to have her same desire to fetch and are more likely to want to lay around looking pretty. Her half-sister also has similar characteristics again not as extreme though. V wrote: My first response when people talk about a dog's behaviour being different in public is to examine the handlers feelings in public/when being observed. You saw her in Sydney at the comp - well the worst of it but I think you also saw that by the time we got to the freestyle she was much better. Having said that we can be at a park and happily fetching and somebody walks through and she spots them and shuts off. I have changed nothing. She will also happily play at agility training and in a variety of situations the real limiting factor is having a person within her comfort zone. This comfort zone varies - sometimes its less than the width of a footpath. The issue is made worth when she has to walk past a person - i.e. figure 8 in obedience or a stand for exam. V wrote: Will she play with any of your friends at all? I would also be testing whether she will play with your friends that she knows well in the company of strangers. She will not play with my brother who has since moved away from home but who lived here for the first 12-14 months of her life. He could never get her to tug. She won't tug if my parents are around either I discovered one night. She has worked obedience for one friend (Rivsky) on here but she has only ever worked her with food and she met her 2 days after she arrived. The rest if she will approach she just grovels to. If forced to interact she does get over it eventually. S wrote: perhaps the dog knows if she takes food then her handler won't put her under any more pressure so she takes the food to appease the handler. She is never put under pressure to take food from somebody else. Mostly the context is my older one has approached and sat for a treat so the youngster takes her lead and will do the same to the same person. More reluctant though.

;) JulesP yes Ness would fit the screw the tug provide dah food category. Kenz er nope :D .

I guess what I am trying to say is that if taking food is in effect a conditioned response though but at least she is taking it could you then build food drive to the point where its useable versus having a dog who is prey driven but refuses to interact with a toy when she is anxious. Her body language when she is taking treats off strangers is get me out of here. She will often take a treat and then go off rather than stick around for another one. Although there are some people she will continue to hang around after being given a treat. We are only at this point now though. She use to not even acknowledge the treat because it was to scary to approach a strange person. Over the course of the summer while being down the beach she has come to approach more readily and will occasionally of her own accord make a hesitant approach towards a stranger and has a few times tried the working dog trick of chasing after a jogger although comes immediately when called. Previously she wouldn't have had enough courage to even have tried this as it would have involved leaving me to go and approach somebody scarey.

:p - awwww cute little things.

well how old were they. God your not very helpful next time I want to know who they are .

TSD - pretty sure there is a large genetic component with her - no real specific trigger its not a recent problem. She is getting better most of the time I just wondered if maybe I had my training idea all wrong and that maybe I should be using more food in training instead of toys. Lets just clarify a few more things - its not a case of won't play when away from home. She will tug/fetch when at new places and in fact its the first thing she does when I let her out of the car. Switch on to me waiting for something to do. She will play outside a ring at training. She will even play inside a ring. The problem seems to be when you start adding a judge or stewards acting as figure 8 posts. Even people she has met every week since she was a youngster cause problems for her.

Nekhbet - she is now 22 months so has been starting to take treats in the presence of people for around 6 months, not reliably though. Sometimes she still says nope can't take treats. I guess I just haven't forced the issue with her and have continued on our merry way training what she can when she can but as I said to somebody last night I guess I am trying to work out if I should be manipulating her food drive so she is more foodie and using that more in training and not bothering with prey drive. Was just curious as to whether anybody else had had a similar issue with the dogs obviously preferred drive being totally supressed. And I haven't not been working on her anxiety issues either.

Too funny Vickie - the things we do for our hobbies . Well done though sounds like you had a good night and congratulations to Chloe on Shine's Excellent Gamblers pass .

Awww Cruise who did Winpara have with her .

I didn't mention in my original post but she would also refuse treats in situations where she was anxious. The taking treats is only a new thing.

I have yet again been pondering this question so thought I would open it for discussion since there are plenty of people who have some knowledge on drive training and probably more knowledge then I do. The question is this - my logic tells me my youngster is more prey driven. She is a mad ball/frisbee chaser and tugger and will take a toy over food under normal circumstances. For example tonight we were at the park and I had stopped off to get tea on the way. I was sitting on the grass eating my tea - my older one sitting with me hoping I might share, the younger one when offered a chip left it on the ground and then spent all of tea fetching her ball while I threw it for her. She also managed to drop the ball right on top of the few bits I had saved to go and do something with my older one after tea. Food left on the ground she ignored while fetching her ball. For the first 16 months of her life she was never really interested in meals and would often skip meals. However, she is also extremely people timid but in that context she will not play tug or fetch a ball, will totally shut down however will now take food. My thought would be whatever was stronger "drive" would be the last to go and whatever was the lesser drive would be the first to go. So I guess my question is has anybody else observed a similar situation and more importantly does anybody have any explanation as to why this might be the case.

Piper about having local buyers - glad it seems to be working out and as I said Goldies if my fussy midget seems to eat it then it must be ok.

But Tassie your going there in May anyway - I am jealous of you . Definitely keep the videos coming Ptolomy - I just sit Kenz down in front of the laptop for a while and tell her to take note - so far it appears to be working .

Think you and bedazzled really need a trip to Adelaide Ptolomy - how else am I ever going to manage a UD leg if I don't have you standing outside the ring threatening to beat me if I screw up. Never mind the dog .

What I want to know is what Steve did with the email list I sent him - did ANYBODY get one .