jerry lee

Animal rights? Sorry, I don't see it as animal rights propaganda. I see it as telling it like it is.

The vid certainly has the "EEK" factor. The question asked, "what have we done too them'' is answered with one of the opening statements blaming shows for judging dog against dog instead of dog against standard. "Fashion is usurping "function" One shouldn't be able to pick a show dog from a working dog of the same breed just by looking at them, except maybe the working dogs coat wouldn't display the benefit of a regular bath & brush.

yep but only if the owner isnt a cliche member,when they are, then it isnt. What ever, The judge still signs the CC.

Judges sign the CC that in their opinion the exhibit is worthy of the title "Australian Champion" All the exhibitor can do is enter & turn up. The rest is out of their hands.

Or educated & intelligent.

35,000 maltese in S.A? What a surprise. Tell'em their dreamin'

This is the clique democratically elected by all full members that you're talking about? No, this the future clique who kid to you they will do the right thing by the membership & you never hear a sincere thought from them again. & of course there is the laxidasical syndrome of let someone else do the job that also allows it to happen. Once in it doesn't take long for them to toe the "us & them" line though. Like they say, the only person to ever go into parliament house with an honest intention was Guy Fawkes.

Disagreeing with a post isn't censorship jerry lee. Have you ever been on the committee of a breed club? 'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing'. Attributed to Burke :) Attacking an opinion & attempting to disparage it because you don't agree with it is attempted censorship, same horse, different cart. If you actually did own maremmas & that was you honest opinion, it would be fair comment. But the wording suggested it was only malicious hyperbole. In my eyes, I saw evil....well maybe not exactly evil, but naughtiness none the less. So I spoke against it. Mr Burke should happy don't you think? Have I ever been on the committee of a breed club? Yes. It didn't take long to figure out all issues were well & truly sorted before any meetings were convened. Meetings were merely a vehicle to record the prearranged votes. The clique ruled...& still does as far as I know. I attended three meetings. Same old same old at each. I then served only as a volunteer if needed. HW, Uncomplimentary is not necessarily defamatory. It could be in relation to a matter published in a previous issue for e.g. Which is an actual example. It was a statement made by the president which I personally know of four members who disagreed with so strongly they all wrote in. I would image there were many more. None were published. Once upon a time there were many ''uncomplimentary" letters complaining about poor facilities, or suspect handling, suspect judging etc, etc. Not any more. Only thank you notes these days. Censorship rules when a clique rules.

I don't think its unfair to suggest that one person's (or even more than one persons') negative experiences shouldn't colour the entire debate JL. I also haven't had experiences that put me off club membership. All breed clubs elect their Committees. They are required to under ANKC regulations. If people care enough about how things are run, there are methods of changing them. Fact is most don't and they get the Committees they deserve as a result. You're struggling to get a turn out to a lot of AGMs. I enjoy the activities of the clubs I'm a member of. So do a lot of people. Sure some folk don't but they can change things if they choose to. It's the Marvin attitudes of some of those within the ANKC fold (and those swiping from outside) that put a lot of newbs off the purebred dog world. People should be given a balanced view and allowed to decide for themselves rather than deterred by a heap of negativity. Censorship of opinions, such as Steves, or indeed attacking the opinions with misquided hyperbole should not go unchallenged either HW. Try getting a true but uncomplementary missive printed in your state bodies journal & see how far you go. The three monkeys gig doesn't cut it in a democracy....or at least it shouldn't " If you always do what you have always done, You will always get what you have always got"

Please don't generalise Steve, a lot of breed clubs do their very best for their members. Even though we are a minority breed we run a very successful club and have a large membership. Not all breed clubs are the same, the fact that you had a negative experience with one club doesn't give you the right to tar all clubs with the same brush. Miranda Im not going to get into the crap here because I dont think its in the best interests of purebred dogs but my experience with breed clubs is not just about the ones I have been a member of and I get why some people don't have a great experience with them generally. Steve, just suppose I posted: 'I owned a couple of Maremmas and I'd rather own just about any other breed than ever go there again. Nasty temperament and where you see some of the worst traits in dogs' Would you not have replied requesting me not to generalise and tar all Maremmas with the same brush? And what would you think if I replied 'Steve I'm not going to get into the crap here because I don't think it's in the best interests of purebred dogs but my experience with Maremma is not just about the ones I've owned and I get why some people don't have a great experience with them generally' Need I say more? Anyway my apologies to all for going OT, I will now bow out of this thread :) The difference is Steve is speaking from personal experience while you are speaking as a person in denial. Oh dear it looks as if I'll have to bow in again :laugh: Of course I'm speaking from personal experience, I've been a general/committee member of breed clubs for nearly 40 years :) Which, in many cases, is the problem. Your club may just be the bestest little club on the planet. Obviously Steve didn't have the enlightening experience of membership. She must have been unforunate enough to experience the same despotic attitudes lots of other clubs display. As have I.

Please don't generalise Steve, a lot of breed clubs do their very best for their members. Even though we are a minority breed we run a very successful club and have a large membership. Not all breed clubs are the same, the fact that you had a negative experience with one club doesn't give you the right to tar all clubs with the same brush. Miranda Im not going to get into the crap here because I dont think its in the best interests of purebred dogs but my experience with breed clubs is not just about the ones I have been a member of and I get why some people don't have a great experience with them generally. Steve, just suppose I posted: 'I owned a couple of Maremmas and I'd rather own just about any other breed than ever go there again. Nasty temperament and where you see some of the worst traits in dogs' Would you not have replied requesting me not to generalise and tar all Maremmas with the same brush? And what would you think if I replied 'Steve I'm not going to get into the crap here because I don't think it's in the best interests of purebred dogs but my experience with Maremma is not just about the ones I've owned and I get why some people don't have a great experience with them generally' Need I say more? Anyway my apologies to all for going OT, I will now bow out of this thread :) The difference is Steve is speaking from personal experience while you are speaking as a person in denial. It's not just dog clubs that suffer the little empire builders syndrome, it happens in all types of clubs, not to be confused with only clubs of any particular persuasion.

I can see how non terrier people would think that. Terriers are fiesty. That is what makes them terriers. Which appeals to those who want a sturdy little dog with a bit of get up & go However, I was interested as to why Sheridan thinks as she does. There appears to be a lot of negativity about Sheridans posts. & a comment for comments sake. Maltese aren't terriers. Just for anyone who may have been wondering.

I'm going to reply just this once more, because it's extremely unfair to the OP by going so off the original topic. My goodness, jerry lee, please read the words that I have written again. Did you actually digest any of it? You're preaching to the converted. I KNOW how good Staffords can be at agility! lol Jeebus. I wasn't trying to prove nor disprove anyones point, particularly your point in regard to the Staffords ability to take part in agility. In fact, if anything, I was agreeing with you on that point.... So why the heck you're telling me about construction and conformation, Lord only knows....! Obviously what I typed went straight over your head. I'm simply stating that in THIS case, the Stafford is not necessarily the best breed for the requirements of the OP's daughter. But they will make that decision themselves, no matter what you, I or anyone else says. Let that be enough, that you've given them information about the Staffords abilities. Hopefully you're confident enough in your own knowledge to let what others think of the breed to let it go :) Read HW's reply. I wasn't preaching to the converted, I was trying to explain why I was hanging in. As for whether the breed would would suit the purpose? We have to agree to disagree. HW, For what it's worth I thank you for your upfront reply & say the same. Let's just agree to disagree & move on.

Particularly the terrier breeds. Terriers are just too much hard work for most people. Just curious. Can you eloborate on why you say terrier breeds are to much hard work? Most terriers are very low maintenance, so I'm assuming you mean temperament wise. High prey drive & hyperactive..... that sort of thing? Since the taildocking laws were introduced there has been a drop off in some the previously docked breeds such as rotties & dobes....the O.E.S is pretty rare sight these days as well. High travel costs & entry fees are hitting country shows pretty hard. The smart ones seem to be gravitating toward three shows on the one w/e as a way of attracting entries. Which is a good plan, it makes the trip worthwhile. As for breed clubs, the feifdoms that develop within some clubs is responsible in no small way for the fall off in memberships.

Tessies Tracy. Great vids. Helped me prove my point, again, whether you meant to or not. Thanks for that. I never reply to the "what breed should I get for a pet'' threads by recommending staffies. ( I am a staffy person & happily so ) old school I guess) This was an exception due to the variety of challenges. & the suggestion by a previous poster that I follow up on. I thought then as I think now the staffy is a good choice to get the jobs required done. Firstly, as I stated earlier, it is my experience a staffy introduced as puppy will bond with whatever other animals are already there. Secondly, it is a doggy home with a definate goal for the dog & I figured with the subsequent early training the dog would bond with the young girl & be easily managed by her because of the regular training. When I had plans for agility the dog had to reach a certain level of obedience before the club would allow it to start agility training. Next, believing in the puppy bonding I mentioned earlier I don't believe there would be an issue with the three dogs living together. The reason I kept on is more to do with the ridiculous reasons given why the breed isn't suitable for agility. Because they are three times heavier than other breeds of a comparable height... Their constuction is all wrong, because their toes point slighty out at rest their pasterns wont stand up to the jumping & landing. Their chest are too wide or too narrow, I'm not sure which it was, both are equally ridiculous anyhow, to manage the beam. The jumps are too high for them. Well the vids have conclusively dispelled all those misnomers. I obtained my first staffy in 1985. He lived with my one rottie first & then a second later, without any trouble. In fact he & my rottie male were inseparable. The rotty died in 1996, the staffy a year later. my other rotty a year after that. I had a break from dogs for a while & have been back with staffies since 1999. I do get a little annoyed when I read misinformation offered as fact by those with no experience of this wonderful breed. They didn't become the most popular terrier in the country without good reason.

I took your question of what height do staffies run at in as mean the height of trialer. seeing heighty & weight seems to be the issue with some critics. Sorry about that. The jumps height for the staffies, as medium sized dogs is, I believe 400mm/16". My dogs can jump over each other at full run with out any problem. That is, both parties running at speed. So 400mm is not a problem. I keep saying but nobody seems to believe it. This breed is an athletic breed. Hey, I don't eat macca's, I reckon it's crap. But at least I tried it BEFORE I reached that opinion... If you get my drift. HW. The reason you don't know the weight of a beagle is because you can't reference it by reading their standard, unlike the SBT, the beagle doesn't have a listed weight parameter. Surely there are beagles doing agility somewhere, so your ''three times the weight'' claim is still a nonsense. Funny how out of all the suggestions offered the only one to draw comments & predominately from people without any first hand experience of the breed, is the SBT. Go figure. The key board experts are present & accounted for. Would anyone care to critique the video link I posted? Did the little guys do good or not? Surely the ''they aren't any good for agilty'' push must feel a little silly after watching the little warriors rip it up. & how much did they enjoy it? I thought they were all particularly impressive across the beam, despites HW claim their chest size would count them out on that particular apparatus.

The point is HW's point is an uninformed point. It's the uninformed point of those who think that SBT's are muscle bound house bricks. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Muscular? definately, but athletic muscular. Have a look at the video & see the ''build'' that is ripping the course up. Not only ideal. Pretty well perfect. Seeing is believing. There are plenty of dogs suited to the activity. The SBT is one. I do agree with you tho. Larger breeds like the GSD aren't suitable. They would struggle in the tunnel for a start. & the sharp turns would test them. It is a time trial after all. It's the smaller more athletic & agile dogs forte. you say HW makes an uniformed pont. So do you re GSD's in agility. I've been around since Agility first started in this country and I titled a GSD with no problems. At the same time there were several reg. staffies also competing well. Then you played agility with the breed/dogs you already owned/bred. As things have progressed and Agility has become more "serious", then yes that's when the BC's/Aussies/Kelpies became more popular. I have known people get rid of their chosen breed and buy an "agility" dog. My suggestion to the OP is get a dog that you daughter can cope with and enjoy, winning is not the be all and end all of anything. If it was I wouldn't be showing a greyhound :laugh: People are missing the point. The request wasn't for an agilty breed. full stop. It was for a breed an eleven year old girl could train & handle for agility which could also cope with living with two rough house dobermanns. & may I add also be the perfect companion dog for a youngster. A staffy fits the bill perfectly so I suggested it. Then I have had to defend my suggestion from criticism by people who no experience of the breed. wouldn't know an SBT from a TAB. One wonders if the breeds being touted as better than a staffy at agility could meet the rest of the criterior? Or if the daughter would even want any of the breeds suggested anyhow. Btw, given the request, I thought some of the breeds suggested were ridiculous. But I didn't need to say so. The O.P. appears to be pretty savvy, they can sort out the wheat from the chaff. What height would staffies doing agility be?...how long is a piece of string? A well bred dog would be around the 40cms, give or take & weigh maybe 16-18 kgs. A bitch would be a couple of cms & a couple of kgs less. HW Comparing a''fine'', slightly built breed like miniature poodle to a robust atheletic breed is a bit beyond the pale don't you think. I can see why you wouldn't suggest a M.P It wouldn't survive the other bit of the equation. The right type has to tick all the boxes. Was it a M.P. you had to retire early? Knees couldn't go the distance? You didn't answer my question regarding the beagle....a breed of similar height & build to the SBT. Do you really think a SBT would be three times heavier than a beagle? Seriously?

Sorry, however, this is a bit of a generalisation. Mine's nothing super-human in the Pug department, but can do all of the above plus Obedience, Rally and gain an 20km Endurance Title.. It's just that they're generally not owned by dog sport folk :) Don't sweat it. The put downs are from those with little or no actual experience of the breeds they are putting down.

. I have seen enough young handlers in tears of frustration or that simply fade away to recommend any dog that is going to impede, rather than encourage, an interest in agility. I'm sure most agility folk have seen the same. It's not fun at all with a dog that's simply not "into" it. I've had to retire a dog due to soundness issues. Not a fate I'd wish on anyone, let alone an 11 year old. the O.P. asked for opinions re a suitable breed for an eleven year old to train for agility that could ''survive'' living with two robust dobes. My advice is a staffy. Your contribution was to denigrate a breed you obviously have no knowledge of or affection for. A question maybe two. how much does a coursing fit whippet weigh? Similarily, a beagle? According to your rational they would only weigh a third the weight of a agility fit staffy. Which would make them around the 6kg mark. Ridiculous. Like your uninformed anti staffy posts. Btw....the staffy standard was written on the ideal model for their pit fighting ancestors. For them, agility, & a couple of frisky dobes is a doddle.

No it isn't just about the dedication of the owner. It's about the structural suitability of the dog for the job asked of it. The fact that they'll try till they break shouldn't mean you ignore that some breeds are not ideally suited for some dog sports. Staffords carry three times the weight of some dogs competing at the same height. Some will be jumping 400 - a big ask for such a breed. Constant landing on slightly turned out feet stresses ligaments and joints. Their stifle construction can make them prone to cruciate ligament rupture so tight turns and constant wear will challenge their structural integrity. Some of their fronts are narrower than the dog walk plank they have to negotiate. This is a job they are NOT built for. I'd no more recommend a SBT as a likely agility prospect than I'd recommend taking up weight pulling with a Whippet. Horses for courses. Braccy breeds like Pugs struggle in agility in all but the mildest weather. It's no insult to a breed to point out that some activities will be challenging for it. I've seen enough dogs and owners struggle in classes to steer folk away from some breeds and towards those better suited. And that's not an insult to the dogs - its an interest in their welfare. Uninformed? How many dogs have you titled in agility Jerry Lee? How many handlers and dogs have you trained? The ONLY purebred SBT I know of that commenced training couldn't get across the dog walk. Too narrow for it. Of course that was before you could just do jumping. I appreciate that people are passionate advocates for their breed of choice but no one should be blind to the limitations that certain structures have. The dogs can suffer as a result. Absolute & utter rubbish.

I know pugs with agility titles too, doesn't mean every pug is suitable for agility. Same in this situation. Just because some staffys have titles and are suitable, doesn't mean they all are. Assuming we are talking about healthy sound animals. The only ''some'' would be those whose owners aren't interested. They are a robust, athletic, agile breed. They are all up for it if their owners are. They love to please, they love to run & jump. They're built for the job. No reason why every sound healthy pug couldn't do the job either, given the chance. It's all about the dedication of the owner, the dogs are ready & waiting.

The point is HW's point is an uninformed point. It's the uninformed point of those who think that SBT's are muscle bound house bricks. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Muscular? definately, but athletic muscular. Have a look at the video & see the ''build'' that is ripping the course up. Not only ideal. Pretty well perfect. Seeing is believing. There are plenty of dogs suited to the activity. The SBT is one. I do agree with you tho. Larger breeds like the GSD aren't suitable. They would struggle in the tunnel for a start. & the sharp turns would test them. It is a time trial after all. It's the smaller more athletic & agile dogs forte. I have a little girl at home, who when she was five months old could jump onto a regulation height table from a standing start. Looked up, jumped up....did it easily..not a problem. I soon put a stop to that.

The tone of your posts suggest you don't think very highly of the SBT. That's o'k, not everyone likes every breed. But you comments regarding height to weight show you don't know enough about the breed to comment on them at all. Look & learn. Kinda have to agree here. (And so glad someone put up the clip of my old breed club :)) I was just about to say - what Staffords have you been observing Haredown Whippets? :) Height to weight? Really? :) I can name several Staffords that have gained top agility titles. But I have to agree with Sandra777. A Stafford probably wouldn't be the best choice in this particular case. Did you listen to the commentary? That was very interesting. Most, if not all dogs live in multi dog homes, & not just staffies only homes. What would be of interest to the O.P. is one lives with a dobermann & two chihuahuas, interesting combination. Another was usually handled by an eleven year old girl who was unavailable on that day. As a staffy person you must have been impressed by Mouse, the white boy with the black eye patch. He has junior warrants in both agility & conformation. A little girl, Mia from memory, is a member of GB's agility team. Not bad for a breed ''unsuitable'' for agility. There was a couple of oldies in there also, both past ten. Bloody marvellous. Plus three or four rescues. edit. Forgot to mention. One has been trained as a gundog & has featured in a couple of gundog mags. Like I said earlier. A foremost all rounder is the SBT.

The tone of your posts suggest you don't think very highly of the SBT. That's o'k, not everyone likes every breed. But you comments regarding height to weight show you don't know enough about the breed to comment on them at all. Look & learn.

On the contrary, a staffy was the top agility dog in the U.S.A about ten years ago. As in numero uno in the entire United States of America. Staffies are athletes. They're agile, quick to learn & bidable.....not to mention super fly ball competitors. The image of a house brick with muscles is not only ridiculous, it's offensive..to the informed.