Muttly

Thanks again for the input. Using light taps on end of her nose I had her in stay for up to three metres this morning. She is very very bright and she is highly responsive. She is starting to get the idea that good things come from sitting and will work on the drop now. I agree I think I really overdosed her last night and she lost the plot. Might try the squeal when I feel teeth. She hasn't done it to me again today, but one licks I could feel the teeth gently graze against my hand.

Only a week today. She has been much better today and is sitting for pats without being asked. Think it is mostly excitement and lack of socialisation. Think it is smiling and she gets mouthy when excited. She had too much focus on her from me yesterday evening. Keeping it simple and briefer was working better beforehand and is again now, thanks for all the input. The leg hugging is reducing and you could be right about it being related to avoiding being hit. She had a meeting tday and behaved very well. The people have experience with working dogs.

No lip curling, no hackle etc. More looking like the gums are dry and the lips got stuck up. She does this when she is sitting for me but wants to jump and as she approaches me looking like a loon but with tail out and usually wagging. Feels like it is frustrated excitement and a fair dose of anxiety - accompanied by strong gripping of my thigh if I let her - like she is melding into me for confidence. Yet she seems pretty good with the doggy crew, takes umbrance when she should and is generally very submissive, good at freezing and lowering to submissive posture. My third dog in rank is usually lower than 6-8 month olds when I foster them including males (strong rank drive but no skill), and she has it all over Lula. If she is anxious about me, she stays away. It seems like she is wanting to be close as possible and frustrated with the limit setting.

Thanks Erny, that is validating. I am a leadership-Nazi. But I do know in the last day or two I have been letting her explore more and me enforcing more of her limits within close proximity if that makes sense. If she starts the hugs or teeth chatter I am out of there from now rather than tussling with her around her sit. She only gets pats for sitting, and only positive attention verbally when not a loon. The teeth chattering and displays are not like I have seen for this breed type. Weird. Adds to her Hanibal Lector quality She is soooo bright and agile, leaps up to grab high limbs from a couple of trees in the backyard as she whizzes past burning off anxious energy. She needs to be working and will in time be a brilliant dog sports candidate. Because of quarantine she hasn't had a walk yet. And her recall under distraction I know will take some time so it is hard to burn up the energy she requires (and she was desexed on Wednesday). So far with toys she herds my avatar, being hairy she seems to always cop it. ACD traits of nipping legs. Otherwise in look and behaviour and temperament she is mostly a BC type girlie. Super smart and keen, but just really anxious about this yard and house lifestyle. She had indents on scruff from chain or heavy collaring.

Girl in question

The other thing she does which is disconcerting is the Belgian type smile - full front teeth displays and chatter her jaws....

Thanks Labsmum you posted when it was a year Time flies but heart-dogs we miss.

BC x ACD foster 12-15 months, think she has been chained, either working or failed worker. Undersocialised and been hit and hauled by collar/chain/scruff. Lots of mouthing and jumping with front legs hugging my leg. Quite an anxious girl. Wants affection but gets over-excited. I think because largely it is all new. With jumping I turn back and on third occassion give a low 'ah ah' in growly tone. This largely works now. The first couple of days giving a growly tone (very moderately) saw her leave proximity and no recall for an hour or so. Had her 6 days now and seems her confidence has increased in that she is figuring I won't beat her Just had her in repetitive sits and she would maintain while I was patting, stopped patting if she went the leg hug or jumped. Was telling her she is a good girl and she jumped and nipped my chin! Didn't break skin but it hurt. Her mouthiness is increasing not decreasing and her eyes are looking a bit wild.... Will look at using rescue remedy. She is bright and active as they come. Anyone else found mouthing increase with time, I wonder confidence but also stress that now she has more of a 'pet' report that is increasing her stress levels. I have had a lot of dogs with 'issues' and a large number of workng breeds, but there are aspects of her behaviour that I am a little floored with. Usually I see the stress levels decrease each days and I am seeing a more manic and active dog. I left her when she nipped after telling her 'bad dog'. She is ultra submissive so am not seeing it as aggression, just ill-informed bite inhibition. She will be a brilliant dog in the right hands.

Thanks Kaywoman, he was and I do.

;) to both of you. It does get a bit easier in time. My heartdog's passing just clocked 2 years. Have had dogs all my life, but he was my boy. Some are just more special and connected with us (not in the universe or with someone else), but the tapestry weaved them to us. Remember her happy and well times and how lucky we are to have been enriched in the time we had with them. She wouldn't want you to be so sad.

2 years a few days ago since Mr Troy passed somewhere between 16-17 years old. Miss you beautiful boy.

R.I.P. Kuta

So sorry Ivy, that is a long time. She must have had a wonderful life to hang around that long

Regarding rehoming dogs with aggression issues, my own PERSONAL thoughts on this are that if you have had an assessment coupled with significant skill in the handler which not all rescues or individual foster carers have (nor should as a prerequisite), worked on a program and at the very worst outcome (as many can be completely rehabilitated) you are aware of the triggers, you are aware of the issues as aggression in my mind is not unpredictable once you know the dog, and have a plan in place to successfully MANAGE the issues and continue working on them over the long term,and can find the appropriate home who will continue that work, then that is feasible. Wow that was a long sentence. It is late.... Handing a dog on that you have not sought professional advice from someone who actually knows what they are doing re/ working with aggression issues (and in my experience that is fewer rather than greater behaviourists), do not have a grasp of the issues, and handing on what you feel is 'unpredictable' is not o.k. at all. Some dogs sadly cannot be re-homed. I suspect without the commitment to them required, there is a far greater number being pts than not. Pragmatism re/ cost and time is a feature of rescue that does not see a percentage of dogs given opportunity. And that is sad. Some rescuers simply are unable to afford it and don't have enough skills themselves. I understand totally that there are tens of thousands of dogs dying each year. I would not personally knowingly take on a dog with poor presentation re/ aggression. But once in my care if issues surface, then I have a commitment to that dog. In one case I had to consider that I may have to adopt them myself as the fear aggression issues were going to be to some extent ongoing but managable, and that is a dog that a very small number of people are interested in adopting. But he got his home. They have worked with a behaviourist when needed, and they are marathon runners, so he gets a lot of exercise ;) They have made a number of adjustments about how they are out in public with him and he has a good life and enriches theirs. And in years I feel pretty confident that he will be rehabilitated. I also feel that we are guardians of these dogs when we rescue them and that involves caring for them as we would our own. I have had three out of about 70-80 odd dogs in my care or with other people looking after them day to day for me, but with their responsibility still resting with me. In each case the three warranted professional intervention, and I remember one of them I emailed K9 about and got some wonderful and free advice which confirmed where I was heading with that dog. At no point in that interaction did I feel condescended to, called 'girl', insulted, and generally abused. Wouldn't expect it would you, and you shouldn't if you go into the rescue forum here and offer advice. But I think that if people feel challenged indirectly and in this case vicariously about their own ethics and whether as guardians the world should be black and white for our dogs.........

thread has been removed now, guess it became more obnoxious than when I last saw it, which unfortunately through visiting this forum for a couple of years, doesn't surprise me.

Fingers crossed for him. If it is epilepsy, it is very treatable:)

Thanks Erny. She has always been extremely protective, particularly when I am not at home. Over the time I have had her a number of dog-savy people who have known her well for months have stated that they would not have entered the yard when I am not home. She has just turned 4. She was removed from mum and litter at 4 weeks and her fourth home was me when she was 8.5 weeks old:( She has been an initially reluctant alpha but increasingly gained convidence with pack changes (had to), this might have heightened her overall levels of stress and stimulation. I think the laneway next to me is a large part of the problem. She barks quite aggressively and I have previously found apple cores at gate and heard someone bang on the fence which is colourbond. My neighbour has said she has been quite bad for a long time. He cannot work on the side of his house or roof when I am not here, several metres away. Diesel the howler-in-crime will lie and watch him work when separated from Bella, only joins in if she starts (which is when I am out). Diesel joins her and unfortunately they have discovered the mutual joys of howling. He isn't otherwise very territorial and welcomes people at the gate.

vet certificate we could certainly explore/obtain, thanks. Meanwhile they have had a week to themselves, and more exercise than usual. But it has been an interesting process of confirming what I already thought, one of the BC's is the source of the problem, remove her (or her vocal cords) and problem is really not a problem. If putting her inside when I am not home doesn't work then will need to look at collars I think. Thanks for all the suggestions people.

Thanks. I have had an update..... not going as well as the first few days. Going to now have to look at some inside, some outside when I am not home.... naughty dogs.

Still going well. I think that I just have to keep separating the howlers while I am not away. The worst fared so-far has been some discontented barks from Bella on deck-land. And after a second snake on my property, keeping her on the deck is good for me:( Means Diesel who happens to need more leash training and car training, will get that in the short-term. Thanks for everyone's suggestions and validation, this is looking better than mace and de-barking:)

That is what I have seen them like with visitors that are exciting. When they stop they look like nothing has happened out of the ordinary.

Sas I think fostering continually is a factor, but not the only issue. Giving them a break will help. Adopting a third dog, ironically to balance my pack has been the source of this behaviour (well the howling anyway). I think I am having to continue to implement different management plans, especially whilst living on a laneway.

:p 4 days in a row, no howl/barking. I know it is a bit early, but one day at a time. Separating them seems to be working which I thought it would as they can'f feed off each other. Also a zero tolerance policy with yipping. Also have had them oput 3 whole days in a row and no foster since Sunday:)

Thank you Vickie, I posted after I saw your post. I agree. I am far from one of those 'blame the kids' but I know that some of the kids that pass by throw things, have caught them doing it. No doubt they don't feel very happy having the tenacity of Cujo x 1000 expressed at them either. I will never live on a lane again. I am in a country town of 530 people. But the laneway is the way to preschool, short cut to pub.... They don't do the howl or bark when I leave aside from Diesel Kelpie going yip, yip when I leave and return. Same as ball excitement. This is very particular to territorial; guarding and then lurching into a cacophany of noise. They are very well behaved when I am here. One of my BC's shows that she would not let people she knows quite well into the yard when I am not here. Always has been like that (the one removed at 4 weeks). That problem existed (very territorial) even when she was out a couple of times a day every day, living with other dogs etc. I think that I have strong working drives in a pet home and overall seems she has met up with a howler....

i think you are right Erny. It is really bad here, several dead dogs already. I am just juggling dogs, toddler and fosters. I am now having a break from fosters. i think as I first posted that exercise is a big part (they have interactive toys, each other, and me). But reality is that I have three rescue adopted dogs, 1 at 8.5 weeks on her 5th 'residence' that was removed from mum and litter at 4 week, from property Bendigo BC! Working lines.... Second is BC from Hawksbury Pound also clearly working lines, third silly black Kelpie, really not silly adult that I suspect if put on sheep would trump them together - and they show fantastic eye and all indications of being great workers. So it is a handful. Have managed the balance to have healthy, smart and obedient doggies who I think have been pretty happy. But Kelpie-boy has only been here since August and the lane as Mita noted is fair-game. And the propensity to howl/bark a new phenomena. I really am not out for hours... I study and do contract work largely from home. Honestly when I heard it for the first time, it was so severe, debarking crossed my mind:( I am now with only my three and will try more snakebait exercise, and bones and separating them when I go out. But any barking collar type experience is great to hear about.