Rocketeer

No legislation is fool proof. Guns don't kill people. People do. But do Guns laws have their place? I think so. Same goes with dog legislation. Society needs protection from it's own creations. Guns aren't intrinsically "bad". So aren't dog breeds. But some breeds are better off not being pumped out to the public . Some breeds are better off underground in smaller circles for the time being.

Really? I think the opposite. If a dog has such a good temperament that it remains well-behaved and not aggressive even with a clueless owner, I think that is a good thing. These are the sorts of dogs that we should be encouraging as pets. A bad dog, no matter how good the owner is, is always a risk and it only takes 1 accident, 1 slip of attention etc for a disaster to happen. Obviously it depends on how "bad" exactly the dog is... But I don't think there is any place in today's society for a dog that would kill another dog or repeatedly and seriously attack a human with little provocation given the chance. I don't think you can entirely blame either party- there are some dogs born with bad temperaments and some owners that cause dogs to develop bad behaviours. Although technically, I suppose, you could blame people for breeding dogs with terrible temperaments- either purposely or accidently (just by not placing a high value on temperament in their breeding program). I think a "good" dog with a clueless owner can turn into a nuisance in a short time. Give a responsible owner a "challenging" dog- they'll do what's necessary to rebalance the dog, give it to some trusted/expeienced or pts the dog themselves .

Human. It's the human that creates the breeds, breeds the dogs, the dogs, sells the dog, buys the dog and owns the dog. The human calls the shots. Doing one or more of these irresponsibly is what leads to problems. Give any dog "good" or "bad" to an irresponsible owner and you can have a troubled dog. Some dogs are more of a challenge but it's up to the owner to take care of that. For example if someone bout a wolf hybrid for a small suburban backyard. And this dog killed got out and killed the neighbours cat. Is it the dog's fault that he was bred? Is it the dog's fault that he's half wild dog, half domesticated dog? Is it the dog's fault some air-head bought him and put him into a small suburban yard ?

That is a really, really intriguing idea. It would definitely take a while, and wolves probably wouldn't adapt to a human's modern lifestyle as they did oh so long ago (considering the issues people have with living with hybrid wolves already), but still, definitely interesting. A solution like that though, it gives no room for improvement. When people conduct a trial and then make a mistake, wouldn't it sometimes be better to try and fix the mistake, rather than to scrap the trial and start from scratch again? What if people forget protocol during the restart, and make the same mistakes again? Finding a better detection system for the illnesses common in the Cavs, or even better, finding a cure, I think that would be more beneficial all around, especially since a new scientific discovery, especially in the area of health, can have a positive affect in so many other arenas. I guess I'm trying to say something along the lines of, human innovation reaches its peak when the problem is pressing. In an idealistic world, this would be a flaw too, but I think to start talking about human nature would be a little too off topic :laugh: I agree, Starting over is a bit of a stretch. I think going back in history to undo all the wrongs of the past is counterproductive. I think focusing on the direction you want to go from where you stand is more productive. If a car of today doesn’t pass today’s safety ratings. Should we go back to a car of the 60s and begin there? And start pin-pointing all the problems we made all along the way? Or should we begin with what we have today and focus on improving it? People love to talk about the ‘good old days’ and how good everything was. Yes things may have been great, but great compared to what was available and accepted back then. The cars back then were great, compared to the horse and cart. Then some people love to beat the drum about all the social, economic and health problems of today and how ‘bad’ everything has become. I know the world is not a perfect place. But on a whole everything has gotten better. Life expectancy, intelligence, health, wealth, technology, quality of life and world peace has improved greatly compared to 40 or so years ago, as a whole. If you take a person in Australia today who is living under the poverty line and compare him to someone living in the 60s. They would be considered very well off in terms of what they have and what they have access to. The same applies to dogs in my opinion. Going from the chain dogs kept in dudgeons of past, to the fleabag chained up in the yard. Nowadays dogs as a whole are healthier, more intelligent, more trainable, more sociable, and more domesticated. And just more widely accepted in the community. Then you see a dog riding a skateboard and you think to yourself ‘ Shit, I can’t even ride one of them’. That’s when you know we’ve come a long way. And what has allowed expansion? It certaintly wasn’t conformity. ( and also, what do you mean when you say "human innovation reaches its peak when the problem is pressing. In an idealistic world, this would be a flaw " ?? )

Hi Ricey, I do see your point about working dogs being generally healthier than non-working dogs. But I do believe a working dog doesn’t always equal a suitable family pet. In some cases it equals a nuisance dog. For some dogs the only work they have is being a pet. And I do agree that health (mental and physical) should be the first priority. But that’s not always the case in both Show and Working dogs. In terms of breeding for the original purpose- Not every Apbt, Amstaff , Sbt and BT want to breed their dogs for fighting. Some people just want them as pets. Not every Belgian/German Shepherd owner wants it to guard livestock/ herd. Some people think they are great for police/service. Not everyone wants a Golden/Labrador retriever for flushing and retrieving game. Some prefer them as guide dogs. Dogs can be very versatile and I believe they can serve many purposes. I think if every dog was bred the ‘one’ way they were intend for, most people in the suburbs will be stuck owning little lap dogs. And all working breeds would only be kept in small circles. But I believe freedom to choose is the basis of who we are.

Amstaff seems to be the new "unidentified bull type breed", especially in Victoria. Seems like the case. Look at all the so called "Amstaffs" on gumtree. Majority of these so called Amstaffs are also from the shitty areas of town.

Ricey- Who knows what happened to the Bulldog and why it is the way it is today. As for the Apbt I can see you are passionate about the breed. I too have an interest in the breed. But I believe there isn't just one 'right' way for the breed to be bred. Now as for performance and non-performance bred dogs. Non-performance bred dogs can also be very strong, determined , reliable, trainable, head-strong and tough. There are many dogs out there who aren't bred from working dogs that display these qualities and make excellent pets. Yes performance dogs can display one or more of these qualities to a higher degree. But I believe some performance dogs are way too much dog for the average owner. Some working dogs should never roam free with other dogs/animals. Some need 2 hours or so of exercise a day just to keep them happy. “Season 4 episode 30” of the Dog Whisperer is great example of the degrees of energy/drive within the same breed. The couple has two dogs- Sandi ( the more laid back one) and Trinity ( the higher drive/energy/dominance one). Now Trinity is on a level different to Sandi ( and Cesar’s Petbulls). I would recommend Trinity for the more experienced owner.

Thanks for clearing that up. Sounds like a fun yet simple activity for the dogs, and owners. Keep up the good work. Would love to check it out in the future.

Yep; me too! I think that most pet dog owners really don't want a working dog. This is why I'd never recommend someone with a small back yard and a laid back personality get a border collie. These are working dogs that need to be worked. I think that a balanced/functional APBT is not a massive dog and should not ever be a massive dog. As for your question and statement "How many of todays purebred dogs resemble the original foundation dogs of the breed? Not many I believe." I'd have to say that the breeders have probably gone way off track. My personal belief is that many fine dog breeds have been totally stuffed up by breeders who seem to want to breed dogs that do not conform to the breed standard. And then they manage to get the breed standard altered to match their view. To give an example of what I mean, the British bull dog originally was a fine athletic dog and an example of what this breed was can still be seen by viewing google images of the Dorset Old Time Bulldog. Granted, not quite the same but close. But the British bull dog got f*cked over when breeders around 100 years ago chose to breed their athlete dog with pugs. I think that if the individual dogs of a particular breed now look nothing like like the foundation dogs then the breeders have stuffed up. Stick to the programme and breed dogs that meet the breed standard. If you can't do that and want a dog that is totally different, just call it another breed and move on. Do not call your bastard new breed the previous breed. I'd have to say that performance breed standards result in far healthier dogs than conformance breed standards have, and I like that APBTs have traditionally been bred to a performance standard. Should a dog owner really care about whether their dog is blue fawn or grey merle, or should they care about what their dog can do or how their dog behaves? I'd like to say that I am really enjoying this discussion and I hope I am not offending anyone when I put forward my views. I'd like to continue this discussion with you all. Ricky (I'd better shut up now before I say something that will really shoot me in the foot) Working dogs have their place and so do non-working dogs. Yes performance bred dogs are healthier. But performance-bred dogs also carry certain characteristics that not everyone wants in a dog. There's something for everyone. In terms of dog breeds changing. Nothing in life stays the same forever. As for the Bulldog, I guess when bull-baiting phased out then so did the Bulldog. People change and things change. Many things have been adjusted or discarded as society changes. Then some things are brought back. It's like fashion I guess lol. I'm not interested or bothered by the Bulldog of today. If I wanted a working dog there are many capable breeds out there now days. Change is inevitable and change is what created many of the great breeds we have available today. The Apbt itself was an offshoot of the Staffordshire dog. The Americans made the dog more leggy, more functional and more capable. In terms of what dog is called what I think it's just all politics. In saying that I do believe it can be confusing if you out a 70kg dog next to a 16kg dog and call it the same breed.

So if you need an attendant to get the trolley rolling is it a disqualification?

not when you talk about excessive drinking, smoking etc, our pets aren't really into that, well mine aren't :laugh: My old lab once licked up a bit of spilt beer... after that you couldn't be around him with a beer bottle without him drooling at you. I'm sure he would've been an excessive drinker if he was allowed to be But yea... completely OT lol. My friends Chihuahua tried some beer. Then turned around and kicked it over.

That's a bargain. I'll take TWO please!

Sail_Away: I'm not here to make a call on anyone's life. Everyone see's the world through their own eyes. Rebanne: I think Health and Pet Insurance are related topics. If you think a thread is getting off-topic you should contact the forum administrator.

I think you'll find most people here go out of their way to feed the best diet, give the most amount of exercise and stimulation and do everything they can to focus on their dogs health and well being :) Sickness and injuries are a part of life, noone is foolproof. I have a breed that is accident prone, and unfortunately for the most part not their fault. If I can spend $1 a day to NOT think about it, for me that is cheap as chips Yes Sickness and injuries are part of life. I don't know anyone who's free of challenges for life. But I have come across people who always seem to be sick or injured. Then you see them around telling the same stories; "poor me", "why is life so cruel" etc . Then they look at people who are happy and healthy and think " They just must be one of them lucky ones" (Lol). Anyone who understands dogs (or animals) will know how sensitive they are to energy. They can feel assertive calm energy and respect that. They can feel fear and panic then become fearful themselves. They can feel people's energy- positive or negative. I have nothing against pet insurance or people who use it. It's just not my thing. Fair call, its definitely not for everyone. I only have it for the accident side of things really, in terms of illness that is lottery in life anyway, you can only eat well and do the right things and hope for the best and even then it can still go arse up at any time. I don't know any people who live by "poor me" and always get sick. I work with sick people and for the most part they are good, normal people who got struck by bum luck. Some did the wrong things (drunk/smoked/ate their way to the grave) but I can't think of many that sit there and think "poor me, I'm always sick, why is life so cruel". "Poor me" , "why is life so cruel" lol, are only vague examples. I don't imagine people use the exact phrasing. And often excessive drinking, smoking and eating are just attempts to drown out underlying fears, worries, and anxiety. I think if people rested more, exercised more, got out more, laughed more, ate better foods, and just chilled out, let go and enjoyed life more they'd boost their health and vitality a whole lot. There is nothing wrong with wanting to cover yourself. I do have car insurance (for the accident side of things).

I agree with you that people have their preferences and there is nothing wrong or right about that. People's preferences change overtime and so do the dogs. How many of todays purebred dogs resemble the original foundation dogs of the breed? Not many I believe. As for the Apbt, Yes they were bred to be a working dog ( and many other breeds) but not everyone wants or needs a working dog as a pet these days. And I wouldn't recommend it (for most people) anyway. So to answer the OP's question. What is a Pit bull Terrier. To me I believe every purebred dog bred directly from purebred Apbt blood can technically be called a Pit bull Terrier. Now everyone has their own definition of what a 'Real' Apbt is. At the moment I'm more interested in balanced/functional types of Akc/Ankc Amstaff.

I think you'll find most people here go out of their way to feed the best diet, give the most amount of exercise and stimulation and do everything they can to focus on their dogs health and well being :) Sickness and injuries are a part of life, noone is foolproof. I have a breed that is accident prone, and unfortunately for the most part not their fault. If I can spend $1 a day to NOT think about it, for me that is cheap as chips Yes Sickness and injuries are part of life. I don't know anyone who's free of challenges for life. But I have come across people who always seem to be sick or injured. Then you see them around telling the same stories; "poor me", "why is life so cruel" etc . Then they look at people who are happy and healthy and think " They just must be one of them lucky ones" (Lol). Anyone who understands dogs (or animals) will know how sensitive they are to energy. They can feel assertive calm energy and respect that. They can feel fear and panic then become fearful themselves. They can feel people's energy- positive or negative. I have nothing against pet insurance or people who use it. It's just not my thing.

Im all for taking care of your family and furry friends. I don't wish sickness on anyone. However I believe we as a society are far too Problem focused. We have insurances and plans to cover up every perceived vulnerability we have. We are so focused on preventing sickness/injury that we forget how to be healthy and well. And just it seems like sick people are always getting sick. Injured people are always get injured. Sometimes you just need to listen to what people speak/worry/fuss about, watch and read about. I wish you and your pets all the BEST!

No. Its not like Im at home waiting for an accident to happen.

Variety is not only more fun it also drives creativity and growth. If no one ever went outside the lines I think we'd all be walking around with purebred, true to type Wolf Dogs. Imagine if there was only one type of dog, one size, one colour. How would you know you prefer Small dogs? There will be no 'Small dog' because there is only a one Dog Size fits all. What a boring world. I think the BT wouldn't be what it is today if someone didn't say- " I want a smaller, solid,strong/lean, short furred Dog with an egg shaped head". It would be the BT it was before. And some will say that todays BT is ugly and impractical. But hey variety is the Spice of life.

Not eating for 1 hour= 7 dog hours. That one is true.

I have to agree you Rocketeer; nearly all the rescue APBTs from NSW that I dealt with were red nosed fawn. I guess that all the council rangers found them easy to identify and so over breeding this type of APBT was not good for them. Most Australians seem to think that all APBTs are buckskin with red noses I agree with you about sizes of APBTs; the UKC breed standard for APBTs allows for a huge range in height and weight The ADBA breed standard does not even mention weight or height , but emphasises balance in all aspects I think we both agree that when the APBT is not agile and athletic, they become lesser examples of the breed. 35 pound lower limit for males is a touch under 16 kilos; 60 pounds is a touch over 27 kilos.. In my dreams I think of when the breed restrictions are finally repealed that both ends of the APBT spectrum will become available. Unfortunately that is not likely to happen anytime soon. It is good talking with you. Cheers, ricey There is a range of shapes, sizes, colours, types, drives, abilities, energy levels within the Apbt breed. It's is a breed that is not well defined and everyone has their own idea of what a 'real' Apbt is. I think variety is the spice of life and with pets in general; you pick the right type for you.

Here we go. Media beat up. Frankly, I find it hard to not get passionate about someone being bailed up by several large dogs. Hard to imagine a much more terrifying situation. What a shame the man wasn't mauled to death, then maybe it would be worth getting a bit heated and passionate about it, hey? Why don't you try it and see how you fare. Good point but not admissible in Court based on the evidence presented here. It could have been set up. Maybe he hurt his arm somewhere else, knew the dogs, and is stiching someone up to pay the costs. Lol, Now where is the sensationalism?? Seriously leave it alone Hun lol. Just agreeing with OP's comment about sensationalism on DOL.

There's nothing wrong with bully type Amstaffs or blues. Everyone has their own preferences. Each to their own. True, but the American Staffordshire Terrier is a terrier as well as a bull breed so it should be both. And while there is nothing wrong with blue AmStaffs, there certainly is something wrong with breeding a dog just because its colour is popular and worth a bit of money. Also, I have seen AmStaffs whose legs are so wide apart that they can hardly support their barrel chests or massive heads. The AmStaff should be an athlete, not a body builder. Like you, I like bully type AmStaffs but not when it is over done. Primo is the dog that the AmStaff was based on; when AmStaffs look nothing like Primo, they are not as AmStaffs should be. ricey Yes the Apbt/Amstaff is Bull and Terrier. Some Apbts are small and thin, they look almost like Whippets. Yet some can look like mastiffs. Who's to say one or the other is wrong. Everyone has their own preference and that's great. Yes some colours have been overbred (like red-nosed Apbts), at least that lets the better breeders know what they don't want to aim for. Although conformation was not a big consideration in breeding of game-bred Apbts I do believe in a balanced body for a healthy and happy pet.

Here we go. Media beat up. Frankly, I find it hard to not get passionate about someone being bailed up by several large dogs. Hard to imagine a much more terrifying situation. What a shame the man wasn't mauled to death, then maybe it would be worth getting a bit heated and passionate about it, hey? Why don't you try it and see how you fare. Good point but not admissible in Court based on the evidence presented here. It could have been set up. Maybe he hurt his arm somewhere else, knew the dogs, and is stiching someone up to pay the costs. Lol, Now where is the sensationalism??

Just check DOL pages and visit the Breeders for yourself. Go with your instincts. You know whats best for you.