Rocketeer

I'll agree that this is amazing and to be valued. I think calling it 'heroic' debases the word hero. It is possible that this dog had a strong response to something going very wrong. It's also possible that, had it been 20 mo old instead of 10 mo, it would have killed the kid because he smelled funny. We just don't know. Pit bulls, like most of the breeds with a history of blood sport, are a mixed bag. Some people go way out of their way to label the whole bag as angelic or demonic. Both extremes are equally destructive. And the newsmedia involved will do whatever draws readers. As for the breed question. If you cry foul when someone labels the breed as 'pit bull' in an attack case, you also need to question the breeding when the dog does something good. Sensationalism does not help understanding and proper care/management. I agree. How do we know this dog is a Pit bull? is it a pedigree dog? do they know it's history? And sensation works both ways. For "good" and "bad" stories. Either way... sensationalism.

If you renounce all possessions move to a small town in a remote part of Australia it will sure feel like 1969. No internet, no HD tv, No entertainment, No services, no restaurants,no hospitals, no doctors no worries .

You obviously feel my last post was aimed at you, it was aimed at everyone who feels its ok for off leash dogs to be walked in on lead areas, if you fit into that description then I guess you are part of my target. I have not picked apart your posts, despite the fact you seem to have picked apart mine earlier on in his thread, and called me contradictory, which is a lot nicer than when someone on this forum called me crazy, but to be honest none of those labels really bothers me. What I'm attempting to point out is that the very people you support, could be the very people who help stricter dog laws be put in to place, its very simple for you to be part of those restrictive laws all you have to do is NOTHING. Let all the perfect off leash dogs sail passed you and say nothing, or you could go one step worse and congratulate the owners but if you really want to help society, you could compliment the owner and say "You do realise this is an on leash area don't you, I wouldn't want you to be fined". By doing nothing you are enabling the off leashers to take away our (and your ) freedom to walk our dogs. It will happen, google dog attacks and new dog laws, I am not making this all up, it will affect us all. Its not to late if everyone abides by the current law and makes sure our dogs are kept secure and on leashes where required and that stops most of the dog attacks it can only help us stay with the law we have. I'm not attacking you I just think there may be a downside to walking off leash dogs that may not have occurred to you. I know this is a small forum and does not reach a lot of people but its been worked out if you tell one person, and that one person tells another the word will spread like wild fire. In political circles its accepted that if one person writes a letter or an email to an MP on a subject that means 500 people feel the same way, which in their eyes is 500 votes. Taking that a step further if a group get together to try to stop dog attacks and get new laws made that make parks no dog allowed, we are all sunk. Off lead dogs don't just piss off other people with dogs, its not just dog walkers that get attacked. If you see an off leash walker, ringing the police won't help or the council, they want a name and address, just reminding nicely that this is an on lead area puts the thought in their heads that people are watching and caring what they do, they may tell you to F off but they still heard you, words that are said or written that you know apply to you are never forgotten, human beings are very susceptible to suggestion. All the off leash walkers I've encountered I've said very nicely (apart from the ones with scary dogs, I haven't been too nice then) "Are you aware this is an off leash area" and I haven't seen them since. They don't know who I am, perhaps I work for the local council, what do you think? You can't make people care about the law but they do care about being fined. Steph don't take this personally its not meant that way. You quoted me - if you were not responding to me, then don't quote me.. Edited to add - in my opinion, there isn't a downside to walking a well trained/behaved dog off lead. I wouldn't do it but I have seen a few and to be honest, they are a non issue. You don't have to lecture me on the problems of outdated dog laws - I have been a dog owner and a member of this forum long enough to know what is and isn't OK.. So you spend your spare time making sure all the off lead dog walkers in your area are aware it is an on lead area or they can be fined - good for you.. I have much better things to do with my time - like enjoy my walk with my dog, instead of worrying about something that is of no concern to me (remember I am talking about well behaved/trained dogs who don't run off to meet me and my dog - they simply go about their walk like I do).. If the dog was off lead, menacing and appearing dangerous - it probably wouldn't have an owner with it in my neck of the woods. So in this case, I would put a call in to our local ranger and let them know there is an off lead dog at such and such location. Now that owner should be fined.. Not the one, causing nobody any harm, minding his own business.. No wonder we can't take our dogs anywhere anymore.. If you have aren't too concerned for you dog. I'm happy for you. But some other people on the forum are more vulnerable and have more fragile dogs due to age, illness, size etc. SO I do see why they would be concerned. I've had a dog that was very capable of defending herself. She could easily kill smaller dogs if she wanted to. But breaking up a fight is just an inconvenience on my walk. Nobody wants to deal with this stuff every time they duck out for a walk. I just think we shouldn't have to go out of our way to make things more convenient for people who want their dogs to be "free range". Why some people believe they deserve special rights? I don't know. I'd like to see what happens if there are NO leash laws- may the best dog win... losers can R.I.P. Where the hell did I say I am not concerned for my dog?? Where huh? I am very concerned for the well being of mine and every other dog/animal.. I have on more than a few occasions put myself in front of my dogs and between a charging dog and my dogs. I would do it again in an instant - I am not afraid of a charging dog. My experience tells me that in my town, where I walk my dogs, that the off lead dogs that come running at us are invariably tame and a growl and get lost is enough to get rid of most of them. Just a couple of weeks ago, I lifted a GSD off my staffy cross and tossed her.. It isn't the first dog dispute I have broken up and I dare say (because I own a dog) it won't be the last one.. My staffy cross is extremely submissive - he tried to out run her but she caught him and he just curled into a ball.. My last dog had mast cell cancer for over 6 years, we lost him in October 2011 after a good long fight with chemo, holistic therapy and finally just palliative care... So much for me being not concerned about my dogs. Also where did I say that I wanted leash free laws - I have never said that either.. I agree that people are flouting the law by not leashing their dogs. No one wants that but you can't make people do something they are not going to do - law or not... All you can do is dob them in.. I am not going to repeat any more of what I have said a dozen times already. You are going to choose to pick out of my posts what suits you and your argument.. I've highlighted your post above. If you are not concerned about dogs running up to you (and your dog) thats great . Some people are and I can't blame them because I don't know what their circumstances are. And not everyone lives in your town. Also. I'm not congratulating anyone who puts others at risk. When some one runs a red light I'm not congratulating them for being a 'good driver' and getting to the other side safely. And even though we can't make people follow the law. I'm not going to support that behaviour or congratulate anyone for breaking the law 'safely'.

And not once have you stated why you think your above the law even tho it has been repeated asked Listen, I've repeatedly answered what my motivations are and the way I go about doing the things I do in an effort to show that there is another side to the coin. Not everything is black and white. To the sanctimonious, holier that thou attitude, OMG it's a by-law brigade. Unless you have never in your life broken/ignore a rule, give up on the lecturing. Okay I change my view point now. I believe in stronger enforcement or leash laws, registration, dog containment on all dog owners (except for Razorblade). Case closed.

You obviously feel my last post was aimed at you, it was aimed at everyone who feels its ok for off leash dogs to be walked in on lead areas, if you fit into that description then I guess you are part of my target. I have not picked apart your posts, despite the fact you seem to have picked apart mine earlier on in his thread, and called me contradictory, which is a lot nicer than when someone on this forum called me crazy, but to be honest none of those labels really bothers me. What I'm attempting to point out is that the very people you support, could be the very people who help stricter dog laws be put in to place, its very simple for you to be part of those restrictive laws all you have to do is NOTHING. Let all the perfect off leash dogs sail passed you and say nothing, or you could go one step worse and congratulate the owners but if you really want to help society, you could compliment the owner and say "You do realise this is an on leash area don't you, I wouldn't want you to be fined". By doing nothing you are enabling the off leashers to take away our (and your ) freedom to walk our dogs. It will happen, google dog attacks and new dog laws, I am not making this all up, it will affect us all. Its not to late if everyone abides by the current law and makes sure our dogs are kept secure and on leashes where required and that stops most of the dog attacks it can only help us stay with the law we have. I'm not attacking you I just think there may be a downside to walking off leash dogs that may not have occurred to you. I know this is a small forum and does not reach a lot of people but its been worked out if you tell one person, and that one person tells another the word will spread like wild fire. In political circles its accepted that if one person writes a letter or an email to an MP on a subject that means 500 people feel the same way, which in their eyes is 500 votes. Taking that a step further if a group get together to try to stop dog attacks and get new laws made that make parks no dog allowed, we are all sunk. Off lead dogs don't just piss off other people with dogs, its not just dog walkers that get attacked. If you see an off leash walker, ringing the police won't help or the council, they want a name and address, just reminding nicely that this is an on lead area puts the thought in their heads that people are watching and caring what they do, they may tell you to F off but they still heard you, words that are said or written that you know apply to you are never forgotten, human beings are very susceptible to suggestion. All the off leash walkers I've encountered I've said very nicely (apart from the ones with scary dogs, I haven't been too nice then) "Are you aware this is an off leash area" and I haven't seen them since. They don't know who I am, perhaps I work for the local council, what do you think? You can't make people care about the law but they do care about being fined. Steph don't take this personally its not meant that way. You quoted me - if you were not responding to me, then don't quote me.. Edited to add - in my opinion, there isn't a downside to walking a well trained/behaved dog off lead. I wouldn't do it but I have seen a few and to be honest, they are a non issue. You don't have to lecture me on the problems of outdated dog laws - I have been a dog owner and a member of this forum long enough to know what is and isn't OK.. So you spend your spare time making sure all the off lead dog walkers in your area are aware it is an on lead area or they can be fined - good for you.. I have much better things to do with my time - like enjoy my walk with my dog, instead of worrying about something that is of no concern to me (remember I am talking about well behaved/trained dogs who don't run off to meet me and my dog - they simply go about their walk like I do).. If the dog was off lead, menacing and appearing dangerous - it probably wouldn't have an owner with it in my neck of the woods. So in this case, I would put a call in to our local ranger and let them know there is an off lead dog at such and such location. Now that owner should be fined.. Not the one, causing nobody any harm, minding his own business.. No wonder we can't take our dogs anywhere anymore.. If you have aren't too concerned for you dog. I'm happy for you. But some other people on the forum are more vulnerable and have more fragile dogs due to age, illness, size etc. SO I do see why they would be concerned. I've had a dog that was very capable of defending herself. She could easily kill smaller dogs if she wanted to. But breaking up a fight is just an inconvenience on my walk. Nobody wants to deal with this stuff every time they duck out for a walk. I just think we shouldn't have to go out of our way to make things more convenient for people who want their dogs to be "free range". Why some people believe they deserve special rights? I don't know. I'd like to see what happens if there are NO leash laws- may the best dog win... losers can R.I.P.

Yes there are always people out there who are less considerate of others. Doesn't mean we need ignore it. Doesn't mean we need to down-size our lives and to give other people special treatment. Sometimes all it take is one person to stand up to an injustice to make a difference. Not only is it great for our own sake. You never know, you may have made a difference in other peoples lives as well. Dobbing in a suspected drug house could make a difference. Calling the police about a suspected domestic violence case could help someone. Calling the ranger about an off-lead dog harassing passing people can save someone.

And those unleashed dogs & their owners are strangers to other dogs & owners approaching. There's no bubble floating in the air with the voice of God coming out, saying.... 'This is a totally bomb proof dog that stays by the owner's side, no matter what.'. But even God knows that the one thing which is predictable about the future, is that it is unpredictable. I don't mean to be rude. But people with this attitude believe that what goes on their own heads rules the world. It even has a name, ego-centricity. A dog owner with leashed dog, who see another person & dog approaching ... bleedingly obvious not on a lead. And made rightly cautious by previous bad experiences .... has a normal stress response, as body goes into alert for fight or flight. So a problem exists . First rule of problem solving.... who has the means to prevent or solve it? Answer, in this case, the person who only has to snap on a lead, when out in public with their dog. And pssssh! to stuff about dogs still being able to lunge. It wasn't a lunging dog on a lead that gave such horrific experiences to those of us whose dogs have been attacked when being walked in public places. Shouldn't even be debatable as it tends to be a council by-law in most areas. In areas where it isn't a council by-law, then it becomes a case of Russian roulette to walk your dog. And it's up to individual dog owners to calculate risk. For me, it's a no go.... far too likely to meet some with an ego-centric view on containing their dog in a public place. Again, I am not disagreeing with you but what so many in this thread fail to realise is that there will never be a safe place to walk their dogs because not everyone respects the law or is morally obliged to do the right thing. You have to accept that you can neither prevent nor solve people who let their dogs run amok - they don't care what you think or want.. I don't understand the issue with walking past an off lead dog that is well trained and doesn't approach your dog - why is that a problem? It isn't doing anything to you or your dog - in fact a dog that well trained is probably so interested in its owner that it doesn't even see you and your dog.. Just because you have an issues with something, doesn't mean it is a problem.. I have issues with off lead dogs as much as the next person - but I really couldn't care less about a dog off lead that is walking calmly by its owners side minding their own business. If the dog is way out in front of the owner, I tend to go in the opposite direction or cross the road - I don't trust them any more than the next person. AGAIN, this thread is about off lead dogs that are not like this - it is about being afraid of off lead dogs that do run up to you and your dog (friendly or not).. It isn't about good dog owners, with well trained dogs that do no-one any harm at all. I think your sentence above answered your own question for you. Can we count on all off-lead dogs to be 'well trained and not approach our dog" ? The fact stands not everyone out there is an aware and intelligent dog owner. Like you have tried to communicate, there are people out there who don't care and don't have a clue about dog ownership. The vast majority of incidents and accidents that occur involve off-lead dogs. Yes we can work towards improving awareness about dog ownership. Yes we can take preventative action like Education, Promotions, Training etc . But sometimes immediate problems require immediate responses. When we have dogs rushing up to us are we going to just politely walk up to the owner and try to 'educate' him while his dog is rounding up our dog? So I still stand by my suggestion of stronger enforcement on leash laws, dog registration, impound release fees, dangerous dogs, dog attacks etc.

This thread is going round in circles and is getting TIRING. We have discussed the things we can do to prevent and minimise incidents with off-lead dogs. I don't think yelling at people over the internet will make them put their dogs on-lead. We can't control what others do. So what have we come up with so far, things that we can do: - dog repellant spray - whistle - hypersonic dog repeller - Report menacing off-lead dogs - Have phone numbers handy; Ranger and Local Cop station - Takes photos of dogs/owner for evidence - Take a stick with you - Choose safer areas to walk

Now what about if those 'out of control' dogs were off-lead?

I've never seen a ranger where I live, only after my dog attack. You shouldn't have to spend your family walk ducking, diving and weaving around other people's off leash dogs but it seems to be a way of life for all of us these days. Being a dog owner for some is about no care taken and no responsibility accepted. We are all going to end up being policed to death with dog laws, where barking at the Metre reader man through a closed gate will be considered menacing, all because of the few messing it up for the rest of us. For many people its also about taking all care and accepting all responsibility. This is what I agree with. If people want to break the law they should accept all responsibility.. Anyone who breaks the law should cop the consequences. Off-lead in On-lead areas, dog attacks, roaming dogs, accidents caused by dogs etc. They should take all responsibility. As for off-lead 'bonding'. Why not save it for off-lead areas? where you won't be disturbing other people who don't welcome it. We can use street-racing as an analogy. There's race tracks out there for people want to 'bond' with their car. The road is not a race track. Should people be racing on the streets just because they find 'value' in it for themselves? Even though they disturb and put other road users at risk?

You must have trouble with written comprehension. Why don't you go back over my post slowly and you might be able to figure out why I'm not one of those. It was a good attempt at insulting me. He may not have an addiction. Maybe just watched the movie Red Dog too many times :) .

I agree that being on 'red alert' doesn't make things easier. But who knows what other people have been through or are going through so I can't blame them. And now why do people who walk their dogs OFF-lead become all defensive and aggressive if someone hits their dog. THEY are the ones putting their dogs at risk. THEY are putting their dogs at risk of being hit by cars, attacked by another dog/ or a person or stolen even. I've seen a dog hit by a car. Blood and Guts everywhere, which also put the public at risk because it was a busy road. As for "friendly" off-lead dogs. Not everyone appreciates them. One of my dogs I had didn't like ANY off-lead dogs rushing at us. There were times where dogs rushed us, but luckily I took swift action and avoided a fight. Some of these people's dogs could have been dead. Now if people want to walk their dogs OFF-lead I think THEY should buy a treadmill or an acreage and not put the public at risk with their law defying behaviour.

Yes accidents happens. But we don't need to go and drive on the wrong side of the road just because we're confident drivers. If people want to live on the "wild side" they should do so in their own little space and shouldn't be putting the public at risk. Now I know people who've witnessed off-lead dogs tear up an on-lead dogs in front of it's owners. Guts flying everywhere. I've had many close calls myself. Little dogs rushing at us. My quick thinking has saved many off-lead dogs lives. So yes I do scan a head and I am aware of my surroundings. So I'd rather be aware then ignorant.

Maybe I'll grab a group of "nicely behaved off lead dogs" and release them into the neighbourhood. Just to let people know what a pleasure it can be to have a dog rush up to you..

Applying this logic , if i am a superb driver and have a high performance car, I should be able to drive it at any speed I deem appropriate provided I accept the consequences of my driving. And bugger what other people want eh? Bugger the fact that I may cause concern to others who don't know me or my car or my driving. What about the consequences of your risk assessment FOR OTHERS? Did they get any consideration? I hope at least that you carry a leash with you and use it if requested to by oncoming dog owners. I've never been at fault in an accident. I have aftermarket performance brakes which were quite expensive. My tyres are also up there as well. I have a good solid suspension set up. I also have a great relationship with my car. So I think I've taken precautions. Weighed out the risk. Now it makes it more safe for me to speed??

I carry a citronella spray called Spray Shield, it puts off the medium aggressive, I also have a personal alarm with me that emits a terrible loud noise, not sure if that will scare the dog off but it will get attention from passersby. Carrying a stick or umbrella is a good idea but you tend to run out of hands and start feeling like you are going into battle, when all you want is a relaxing walk with your dog. : ) However whatever works for each individual. If I had a cattle prod you can bet your life I'd end up shocking the wrong dog or myself. Using pepper spray (illegal in NSW) has the problem of getting a dose of it yourself. If someone could come up with something that doesn't harm the dog or cause the walker to look like a pirate bristling with weapons, I'd be very interested. The closest I've found is Spray Shield. Alternatively it would be nice if all dog owners took responsibility and kept their dogs under control, observed the leash law and had dog secure yards. Seems simple doesn't it. You can buy an ultrasonic dog deterrent off ebay. Good if you are walking alone and a dog charges you. But if you are walking with your dogs it may put them off as well.

Taser. Capsicum, spray. Something non deadly? The effectiveness of Pepper Spray on a dog (or even Humans) is uncertain. And tasers are another story. So what do people expect? People don't always have time to run through all the options and find the 'appropriate' action to take in a situation like this. It's not like the Officer had time to stop and think " Oh, lets try a kick", " whoops, not working. I'll hit him with my baton". "Dam, that didn't do it, okay where's the Pepper Spray". " Shiet, anyone got a taser them on them ??".

soooooo1?1?????? well the very fact that it now seems to be OK for people supposedly known to the shooter and the police makes this sort of acceptable behaviour??? i dont think so! H I never said any of the above. My point is you hear about this stuff on the news all the time. People get scared and think it's happening everywhere and to everyone but statistics show its always the similar scenarios. Some people out there always seem to be in trouble. I think the average person in Sydney has a better chance of dying by crossing the road or driving to work.

It was directed at anti-police posts. Sometimes Police Officers have to make a call when on the job. For the safety of other and themselves (yes many don't wish to die on the job). It's up to the courts to decide if they've acted reasonably, based on the evidence. So for those who think the officer didn't take the right action. What can police officers do in a split second to respond to a charging dog? I wish we could solve all violence by sitting down and talking about it. But thats not gonna help when it's already in motion.

I think people need more appreciation for the police.

Exactly. There is plenty of legislation, but until councils step up to the plate and regulate and enforce them, we will still be having this conversation in 50 years time. AND- I will say it again- it's up to the general public to report instances. The council don't know unless we inform them. In my situation, after my dog was attacked, I asked around the local dog park (which many dog walkers would have to walk past the roaming dog to get to) if anyone else had had any issues with the Dally. I was unsurprised to discover yes, several other dogs had been bitten by it. Had any of the owners reported it? Nope. It's the old "someone else's problem", which then means the council never finds out. My council was very supportive when I contacted them, but still had to rely on my constant reporting to actually fine the owner & subsequently slap a nuisance order on the dog. Following that, the guy still insisted on sneakily let the dog off, so every time I saw it, I reported it & he got fined. (Much to his disgust- he tried to intimidate me too, but I'm a lot tougher than I look.) It took about a year, but t's been a while now since I've seen the dog unleashed. So we can't blame the councils if we don't report these dogs. And if at first you don't see much action, keep reporting & keep records that tou can email the mayor if you still get no joy. Squeaky wheels & all that. I applaud your persistence and bravery. We need more people to take action like you do.

great idea. ring your local police station. Glad they go their fence fixed.

Yep. Different faces, different places, same shiet.

90% of these shootings in Sydney are targeted. More than likely the victims are known to the shooter and the police. So I am not alarmed at all.

Your experience is similar to my own. I'm also amazed at how many people on a dog forum are so passionately advocating greater restrictions on dogs instead of better education, training and promoting responsible ownership. Sent from my iPhone while sipping my morning coffee at my local cafe with my dog asleep under the table. Education, Training and Promotion- we can use the same 'ideas' towards Drunken Violence in the CBD, Dangerous driving, DUI, Gun violence etc. But until there is a shift in awareness regarding these things do we need legislation to reduce the risk of these things in the immediate moment? Yes we do. OR should we lift the legislations on speeding, drinking, guns, violence etc and ONLY focus on education, training and promotion?? I don't think so. The same goes for dog ownership. Until there is a shift in awareness towards dog ownership do we need legislation to reduce risks?? Yes we do.