zayda_asher

Unless he actually has adverse food reactions to those specific items, then not adding them to the diet wont make a difference to the secondary yeast infection he gets on his skin... Monica Segal discusses the myth of not feeding "sugars / grains to feed the yeast" in chapt 18 of Optimal Nutrition... I can type out the bit on yeast later if you want... need to get off the comp for a moment now though (sore neck!)

If its easier for you to assume that I don't see or don't want to see, then whatever, ok...

Nope, I don't think you are being insulting to my derm... I do see what you are saying, I just don't agree with it

I think this is a really good example about how a piece of information taken out of context can be easily misconstrued. I've worked with this particular Derm practice for ≈ 8 years and never once have been given false hope about a "cure". They are always very clear about treatments, how they work and what to expect from them. They have always stated that "success" with immunotherapy is a reduction of symptoms, and they quote the standard accepted rate in the research literature of ≈70% who see this success. Again, that's fine....I'm talking in general....a few people here seemed to think 70% was the going % and success to people could mean a fix. That's all I'm pointing out is terminology and that information could be misleading with the defination of 'success'. 70% is the generally accepted level of dogs that will see improvement according to the research literature on the topic... there are studies that show both higher and lower, but this is the accepted mean average. Yes, terminology can be subjective, but that is where it is important to define what is meant by any terms such as "success" and also make sure that you understand the context in which they are used. I think its important to remember that the consumer also has an obligation to research and make informed decisions for themselves and not just blindly go into things... Yes, the Dr has an obligation to inform their client, and we as the client expect that as a right, but we also have the obligation to be informed for ourselves and not just blindly swallow what is fed to us... its a two way street.

Absolute life saver here!!! Zayda I have resigned to the fact that she will be a lifer with immunotherapy, but I'm still aiming to get her to the largest interval between injections that I can. We actually give her's orally as she started reacting to the injections (very bad swelling). In the time she was off it (we trialled this first before moving to oral), she fell apart and we had a return of symptoms that were like the "bad old days". Then she developed more allergies and we retested to do immunotherapy for them. Whilst we are on immuno for her I see: * Almost no itching, unless exposed to a high load of her allergens, which means she's not ripping and chewing herself to shreds * Virtually no yeast, unless she gets a food she shouldn't have * Reduction in rhinitis, eye & ear problems * No hive outbreaks (we have had one very small one and two almost ones since she has been on her new one and, again, I think these may actually have been food related) Asher sensitised to his and we had to take him off it, however, it was still successful and I believe we've seen long term results. We have a much easier time controlling his staph infections since he's done immuno: they happen less and are easier to clear when they do. He doesn't chew at his feet as much either. Unfortunately we've had a bad patch with him in the last 6mnts or so and he's developed some adverse food reactions and I think he may also have developed some more atopy. However, because he had problems with the last lot of immuno we're holding off retesting him and seeing if we can bring him back into control by eliminating specific foods and other topical treatments etc. If not, then we will look at retesting and doing immuno, but starting with a much weaker solution and acclimatising him slowly. I've absolutely saved a boatload of money by forking out for the immuno... Keeping Zayda particularly in condition without it was an exercise in $$$$$ and frustration.

That doesn't mean that they do everything exactly the same as the Derm they learned from or that they explain things in the same manner, sometimes seeing someone different can be very useful. One of the derms at the prac I go to was trained by the other and they are remarkably different people, use differing techniques on occasion and explain things in very different ways. Both are fabulous, but some people find they work better with one over the other due to personality, etc. That's really unusual... I've never heard of that in all the stuff I've read on immunotherapy... I'll ask my derm about it next time I write to her and see if we can get some more in put on this usage of IDAT. I'd certainly talk with your derm about it... but it may give you an idea of what you are seeing. Did you keep a symptom diary so that you could track her symptoms / improvement with treatment? Raff posted the info sheet on this I think... Basically the RUSH treatment with immunotherapy means that you don't have to do the build period where you start on the lower doses and close together injections. The dog goes into the clinic as a day patient and they are put on an IV to have the initial "uptake" of the immunotherapy: you then go home with the final strength vial and begin the injections at (I think) the 3 weekly gap that you are on once you go up to the final strength vial. Saves all those early injections etc. and gets it into the system quicker. A lot of derms are finding it helps with compliance, as people aren't as confused about when to give what dose etc. I personally haven't done it, as my dogs were started pre this being intro'ed, but I know several now who have done so. So it sounds like you are still in the "up take" trial period where you are ascertaining what level and period of time works for your dog. It took us more than a year to get through this period with Zayda, we're now out to 6 weekly with her Alternaria ASIT. We did push it out to eight weeks at one stage, but had some complications and went back. I think we will soon trial her at 7 week intervals and see how we go. Its a bit hard to say if it is effective or not if you have not yet settled into a specific dose at a regular interval... Perhaps you need to wait until you have found what level and duration between injections works for her before you can make a call on its efficacy? You might try bathing in Episoothe and only using the malaseb when she flares. I have found (and both derms at my practice confirmed this to be their experience too) that the medicated shampoos are often very drying and give the skin a hard time when used so regularly. I bath weekly for both my guys atm, and that is with the episooth, which keeps the allergens off and their skin in very good condition. We've recently had a flare with my boy with Staph, and are now doing every 4th bath for him in Pyoben. This can help keep the bacterial load on the skin in control, whilst not causing other problems like drying the skin further by using the medicated shampoo so often. Conditioner can also help if you are seeing scurf, and helps form a protective layer on the skin. There is also a lot coming out now showing that omega six in the diet is helping with skin barrier function: evening primrose, borage (starflower), safflower or sunflower oil can be used. Same dosage ratio as for omega 3. Do you feed dry food to your dog? This is a major source of exposure for storage mites and you may consider swapping to home prepared if you have the time to do so (made massive difference for my guys). Skin oil treatments are also now being used with some success. Our dermatologist is importing these: http://www.sogevalus.com/derm_spot.html However, many people just used Kerri oil after their bath. If you find you are still getting a lot of itching, you may consider trialing different antihistamines. Some will suit some dogs better than others and you will also find that the dog can develop a tolerance with long term use of one particular type, so swapping can sometimes help if you see a flare. What do you get skin infection wise? I've had great success using lamisil on yeasty feet / tail bases. Resichlor lotion can also be extremely useful for both yeast and staph. If you get staph I've had great success using Pau D'arco (herb) orally to help keep staph down. Dermotic is great if you're having yeasty ears and you can also rub it into the flap if they're read / inflamed. Vinegar and water can also be used to maintain paws and as an ear wash to help keep them from getting reinfected... from memory the dilution is 1 part vinegar to 3 water. YOu can also make a rinse for the coat from Pau D'arco tea and rinse them with this in between or after baths. Of course, as you say, keeping as many of the allergens as possible out of the immediate environment is really helpful (the bit I hate most - house work! ). There are some studied showing the probiotics are helpful in general for allergy dogs. I also no longer vaccinate, as there was a study (Frick and Olsen I think it was, I can check that if you want) that showed regular vaccination will worse the symptoms of atopy. If you get GI issues then digestive enzymes and aloe vera caps can also be really helpful. I'm sure there's more I do, but that's all that's come out for now! There's some stuff coming out now that is looking at Tumeric and yucca for inflamation as well, I haven't researched this a lot yet, but that may be something you can follow up. I assume you did an elimination diet? No problems

I think this is a really good example about how a piece of information taken out of context can be easily misconstrued. I've worked with this particular Derm practice for ≈ 8 years and never once have been given false hope about a "cure". They are always very clear about treatments, how they work and what to expect from them. They have always stated that "success" with immunotherapy is a reduction of symptoms, and they quote the standard accepted rate in the research literature of ≈70% who see this success.

What other treatment and management protocols, besides the immunotherapy, are you using?

It sounds to me like you need to talk to a derm and get it explained to you fully, do you have a derm you normally see besides the registrar? I have never heard of doing a further intradermal test to determine if immunotherapy was working, it doesn't make sense to do so imo and I don't think it would tell you that it was working (I could be wrong, but we've been dealing with allergy dogs for 8 and a half years and never had this suggested, testing is only to determine what they are allergic to and what should be avoided / go in the immunotherapy). Are you sure that's why she was retested? It wasn't just because she was having more issues symptom wise and they wanted to make sure there was not more allergies developing (which there was). Dogs can develop more allergies as they age, not all do, but it is not that uncommon for it to happen either. Both mine have... Humans do it too... and symptom patterns can also change as you age, sometimes a change in symptoms is also indicative of new allergies forming. The immunotherapy "vaccine" will not make the dog's system less prone to developing NEW allergies, it doesn't in general make the immune system cope better. What it does is force the system to deal better with the allergens that are in the vaccine (so in your case that would be storage and dust mites), which means you should see less symptoms even though they are exposed to those particular allergens. I don't think this would necessarily translate to a lower score on the intradermal panel though: My girl's original immunotherapy was for alternaria mould, and in her second intradermal panel (because she developed more symptoms and more allergies) the alternaria reaction was still a 4, however, if we take her off the immunotherapy she falls to pieces and becomes much more symptomatic, so it makes a huge difference for her. Now she is on her new immunotherapy as well and we don't see her new symptoms either, as long as she is not exposed at a very large level, biggest of these being mass urticaria (hive) outbreaks. I think it depends on the individual and how responsive they are to the immunotherapy and also how sensitive they are to their allergens. Some dogs are very sensitive and end up being on immunotherapy for life, where as some do see a dramatic improvement with a shorter course. You have to try and see... Some dogs are not responsive to immunotherapy at all, but they are not as common. Have you taken her off her immunotherapy and seen if you have a return of symptoms that you do not have when she is on it? If so, then the immunotherapy is beneficial and worth continuing. We actually have Zayda's old immunotherapy separate from her new one, as her old one we can maintain her on at 6 week intervals, where as her new one we are only on 3 week intervals at the moment. Ideally you want to get them to the largest interval in between that you can maintain condition on... some dogs can be weaned off all together eventually, but I believe this is not that common. What interval are you currently giving it at? I don't think putting her old one in with the new ones would be as efficient, because you would also go back to the lower dosage as you introduce the new one, unless your Derm does the RUSH treatment, in which case it may make no difference. We are certainly not 100% symptom free with immunotherapy, but we see a dramatic reduction and it helps to keep her under a level where we do not get major symptoms like yeast infections. My boy was on immunotherapy, but he became sensitized to his, so we decided to take him off and try other things to control his symptoms. In summary: if you see improved condition whilst on the immunotherapy, its working for you. If you see absolutely no change in symptoms, then it may not be the best option for your dog. Often I find people don't realise how much improvement there is until they see the back slide that happens with withdrawal. Immunotherapy isn't a cure, there is no cure for allergies and nothing will stop them potentially becoming sensitized to new things unfortunately, but immunotherapy can help control symptoms by helping the immune system learn to cope with the allergens in the immunotherapy a bit better.

Oh, I also meant to mention that in the last couple of years they have also found that some foods cross react with some atopic allergies, an example being apples cross reacting for those allergic to birch pollens. If you do a google you can normally find the list and they can then be added into the re-challenge on a food elimination.

Gastro-intestinal problems are common with Adverse Food Reactions, so that may be what you are seeing with the Lamb and it may also be a part of why he has problems digesting some bone....

Staffordshire Bull Terrier or American Staffordshire Terrier (AmStaff) puppy? People often say Staffy and mean either, If pup is AmStaff then drop me a PM....

I'll have a read tomorrow, when I'm not so tired!

Erny, just letting you know the GFDs response doesn't appear to be up any more... I had a quick cruise around the site and couldn't see it?

You guys certainly have a rough go of it and I really feel for you We're certainly not under control with out meds either, we're just lucky that we're antihistamine responsive and can use them, instead of pred. And I'm really thankful for it, as it appears both my guys may have negative reactions to pred now.

Yep, I know what you mean, that's the stage we scrub Asher at too... he really enjoys it, must feel nice getting all that crap off Poor fella, I have memories of Zayda being like that when she was younger and we didn't have everything under control yet

Maybe I should've called the support forum "Puppy Inna Bubble" Apparently its when they have the staph that avoiding the massaging is good, irritates the pustules I think We always scrub Asher, same as you say, but he doesn't get irritated by it, so not something we've had to deal with. Poor Orbie... sorry to hear he's got the owies.... I try to tell Zayda not to lick, but she just ignores me too PS: How strong is the water flow from the hydro? Some of them are pretty strong "massage" flows, that could irritate too??

Great to hear he is doing better this week

Well that's a good sign hopefully!! They need atmosphere controlled bubbles We used to joke that Zayda should be the "puppy inna bubble" when she was little... My husband was joking around the other day and said that Mason should also be in one of those bubble suits lol. It'd be really funny if it wasn't so close to the truth, hey? :rofl:

I meant to say too that one of my friends had similar problems with her dogs and was told to just smooth the shampoo through the coat with as little massaging as possible, as it stops the skin irritating so much... You may already do that, but it might help if not

Well that's a good sign hopefully!! They need atmosphere controlled bubbles We used to joke that Zayda should be the "puppy inna bubble" when she was little...

How's he going now? Does he normally get itchy after a bath?

Try to keep the living environment warm, but not humid and that will help prevent mould spore growth! I've found keeping Zayda rugged up so she stays warm helps too, esp. when we go out.

Actually, you can show them You might not do any good, but you can. We have no disqualifying faults. Tri colours are listed as "not to be encouraged", not as a DQ. In fact one of the Tri colours listed on that photo page belonged to ToTheMax kennels and, I believe, did quite well in the ring. ETA: I'd put in a formal complaint about that ranger's behaviour

Yes, exactly.