zayda_asher

Hi JennyWA... Westies are another dog prone to allergies - bummer isn't it??!! OK you say you are in Perth so I am assuming that you have been referred to Murdoch dermatology clinic and have been dealing with either Mandy or Sharon? If you are you are in great hands... if not get there quick - they're the experts!! You say that you have changed his diet to roo meat and veg... Does this mean that you have done or are doing or are going to do an elimnation diet?? This is the best way to determine any food allergies.... If you are giving him anything he is still allergic to in his diet this will still be effecting him and making him ichy! I'm also assuming that you have done intradermal skin testing to work out what he is allergic to as you are doing immunotherapy injections. What is he allergic to? You'll still have to make best effort to keep him away or out of contact with whatever this is too.... you'll work out the little tricks to keep him comfortable depending on his allergen. Yep they have to be on it for at least a year before they can tell weather it is making a significant difference. Zayda is allergic to Alternaria Mould which just hangs around in the air and is very prolific in any damp weather. So in humid or wet weather she gets very hayfever like symptoms: running eyes & nose, sneezing, itchy skin, makes her car sick when it is really bad... and if she chews at her paws a lot from it she gets a secondary yeast infection. Zayda has been on it for 2 years now (which is said to be the average minimum) and it is working very well for her. We started in January the process of moving the injections back out to see how her immune system is coping. If we find a gap of time is too long we move back to the last gap that worked and keep her there. Then we'll try again after a while. Some dogs will reach a point and that is all they can ever cope with, others successfully leave the treatment all together. Ok this is what has improved in Zayda: 1) Her medicated baths have moved from twice a week, to once a week, to once a fortnight to once a month!!! 2) We no longer have secondary yeast infections in her ears and no longer have to treat with Dermotic 3) She has had no antibiotics in well over a year 4) We no longer have to use antihistamine eyedrops when we go out in damp weather 5) She doesn't throw up as often in the car 6) We rarely need to treat her paws for secondary infection (all though this one is a bit more common as their feet get wet - we have to dry her paws) 7) Dramatic improvement in her concentration - even when not feeling 100% She is still on 5 Chlorpheniramine (antihistamine) a day (half morning / half dinner) and we are hoping to cut this down.... Some of those changes for Zayda will be a combination of food allergy control and immunptherapy... which is whay I say it is important to sus out what your dog is allergic to food wise (I am assuming he is due to diet change).... We test Zayda on anything new too.... The most important thing is to be really dedicated and consistent: you can't skip weeks or such when you are dealing with this sort of problem.... They can't have a little taste of what they are allergic to - people say "it wont hurt them" but it does!!! All of this will skew your results..... Listen and follow closely the instructions they give you at Murdoch - keep in contact on any thing that doesn't seem to be going well so that you can work out an alternative way of doing it. Oh and depending on how long he's been on it: they sometimes get a bit sicker before the body adjusts.... By bathing Zayda more often and sorting out her food allergies etc. we managed to keep Zayda off corticosteroid injections, which was my preference as in the long term their use is not good... She has only had one lot of oral and one injection: for a bee and a wasp sting! Oh and just for a complete picture zayda's food allergies (that we know of so far) are: Beef Lamb Corn Sardines Tuna and an intollerance for eggs It took us around 9 months to a year to test for all her food allergies. I don't think there is anything in naturapathy that actually works the way immunotherapy does.... there are things that are supposed to boost the immune system etc and they may be a good adjunct to the immunotherapy.... but I don't think that there is anything that will actually address the specfic allergy... could be wrong though.... Make sure if you try natruropathic stuff you let the other Drs. know you are doing this so that they can take into account any changes - sometimes things will work in conjuction with each other in strange ways.... its important the left hand knows what the right hand is doing! Let me know if you have any more questions... good luck! Dan ETA: For Zayda it has been well worth it.... All of her allergies had her looking like a skinny, patchy haired, scabby thing. She now has a glossy coat, wieghs healthy instead of way under and is prepping for competition!!! Also Zayda is considered an extreme case due to her many allergies and her sensitivity to them... All her Drs. are very impressed with her improvement... She is used as a case study for lectures by her dermatologist....

It still depends on the dog: Zayda has extreme allergies and sensitive skin.... but she's fine on Frontline.... where as Asher is only allergic to proplyene glycol and has a sensitivity to such products... Sometimes the only way to find out is through trial and error...... Dan

Yep.... the allergy its self is more painful for the dog....... Once you know what they are allergic to (if it is an allergy) then you can control it and the secondary infections they get from it.... a much happier dog ETA: This is one of those areas where taking short cuts and not seeking professional help can and will end up costing you much more money than doing it right the first time.... the cost is not only financial but emotional and physical in cost too.... Dan

Yep, they sure can be... We've spent well in excess of $12,000 on Zayda... But I suppose it comes down to if you think it is worth spending the money on them.... My dogs are my kids and my responsability and I would never shirk their treatments for considerations of money (they get stuff at my expense - "I can live without X because Zayda NEEDS this..."). Not everyone can do this... but that is just the way I feel.... seeing Zayda happy and healthy only confirms that for me Cheers, Dan

I just don't see how this would work.... If she is allergic to anything in the food this person recommends then you will stil see a reaction.... Better to consult with your vet and get a referral to a dermatologist.... Don't rely on steroids or other things that treat symptoms without adressing the underlying issue... Dogs often don't develop allergies until 1.5 years or older..... I have an extreme allergic dog - pm me if you want more info... or talk to Rappie who is a vet intern with dermatological experience.... Dan

Mine get a chicken wing each morning and their training treats as well as their kibble..... they also get fish oil and a joint suppliment. They each get a half stick of roo jerkey each morning too.... Dan

Just make sure you get an all wormer that does hydatid - not all of them do.... Dan

Zayda's command to come back to heel is "in" - this is from any spot. She has no command to heel off - she follows my left leg Her command to look at me is "ready" (when the judge says "are you ready?" I say "ready!" and she looks to me!). She knows "look" for outside the ring. She knows "drop" (down is to get off) She knows the difference between "Wait" (another command is coming - use this for recalls) and "stay" (don't budge missy!!) "Return" is to come back around me to heel. I use my left hand for signals (I'm left handed!!), my signals are mostly standard but look slightly different because I use the opposite hand. We will hopefully start trialing later this year, our teacher is a judge with many years experience and these commands have all been vetted as suitable :D Our agility commands are an entirely different kettle of fish!! We're in WA - some things a different in other states...... Hope this helps!!!! Dan

We use Advance Turkey & Rice and Supercoat Special Care (chicken and rice) - Zayda can't have any of the others - they all have things she is allergic to in them!!! Dan

Oh Jacqui, congratulations! That sounds like a huge improvement already!! I hope it continues for you..... I have my fingers crossed! Dan

Wow! I had no idea you had to do stuff like that!!! that's pretty full on! Hard work for you guys.... can it make the other dogs sick as well as people? I never really thought about the chemicals coming out of their system like that... but it does make sense when you stop and think on it... How long will it take of Molly being on the chemo for you to see if its making a difference or not? I hope she's doing well Dan

I don't have an experience of chemo with dogs.... Why the bleaching etc.? Is this just to ensure she has as clean an environment as possible to be in so she doesn't pick anything up? I hope things continue to go well for you.... Dan

Good luck Jacqui..... we'll be thinking of you Dan

I agree with all of this assuming that there are no underlying food allergies and they turn out to be allergic to any of these things ;) A lot of these suppliments etc. are great and do help, but they are only treating / allieviating the symptoms if the underlying immunological problem is not treated.... If the dog does turn out to be allergic to any of these things then it is only exacerbating the problem. For example: Zayda (my girl) is allergic to sardines and tuna... to feed her these as a source of omega 3s would be a disaster!!! However, she's not allergic to mackerel, herring or salmon and gets all 3, as well as a cold pressed salmon oil suppliment for the EPA which is great for their skin! Working out what exactly makes their immune system crappy is enough to drive you crazy but in the long run it is easier and less insane making than only treating symptoms and the dog will have a longer, healthier life. If it was me I'd be taking Rappie up on their wonderful (and extremely generous) offer to PM them and have a FREE chat to someone with vetinary and dermatological experience... IMO that's an "offer that's to good to refuse!!" (*sigh* there's no "God Father" emoticon ). Dan

Perhaps if this was a few years ago they used to think that it could be transmitted? All our vets, including our dermatologist, stated that it is in no way contagious to any dog as its their own immune system and micro fauna that they are fighting and the mites cannot actually be transferred from one dog to another.... This was approx 2.5 years ago so maybe its just one of those things where we've improved our knowledge of how demodex works.... RazzaMaTaz: I would try getting a referral to a specialist to work out what other immunological problems you boy might have.... All the suppliments that Goldchow suggests are great: unless of course it turns out that he has an allergy to any of the things used in the suppliments!!! The fish oil is crucial to the condition of their skin and immune system and they will probably be on it for life - esp. if they do have allergies.... I would certainly be following Rappie's advice as they are a Vet Intern, whom has done training in dermatology and are certainly giving you the right professional course of action. As Rappie says its just quite probable that you didn't "nuke" the demodex well enough to solve the problem and if other immunological problems are not treated you may well continue to have flare ups with the demodex. As demodex is not contaigous there is no need for you to go through the expense of new bedding etc. again.... They can't be reinfected in this way.... Zayda's allergy & demodex treatments had cost us $12,000 BEFORE we stopped counting (and that was with some substatial discounts!!)- we've actually spent a few more grand on her immmunotherapy, antihistamenes, suppliments etc. etc. since then and will continue to do so for her life.... Because we have her allergies under control and are treating them the demodex has cleared and is no longer an issue... She is truely the most expensive dog I have owned, but man she is worth it!!! As they have demodex I personally would be desexing both of them as dogs who develop demodex should not be bred from as there are strong herditary links to demodex and immunological problems.... I know you haven't said that you have any intentions of breeding from them, but accidents do still happen ! Good luck Dan

Most manges are highly contagious, however, Demodex is NOT contaigious.... "Demodectic mange is caused by a microscopic mite called Demodex canis. All dogs raised normally by their mothers possess this mite as mites are transferred from mother to pup via cuddling during the first few days of life. (After the pup is older it is unable to pick up demodex mites. Puppies raised by hand, do not ever get demodex mites.) For some reason, conditions change in certain dogs to allow demodex mites to "gain the upper hand;" the mites proliferate and can cause serious skin disease." http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_demodectic_mange.html Do a search for "demodectic mange" on google and you can find a wealth of information and treatments. As stated in the quote above all dogs have demodex mites, but on some dogs they get out of control.... often this is seen ins dogs with immunological problems such as allergies and getting these problems under control will also help with the treatment of demodex. A referral to a dermatological specialist may be in order to help determine what these pup's underlying immune system problems are. Staffys and other bullies are prone to allergies and also prone to demodex.... Do a bit of reading about demodex on the web and decide what you want to do next.... specialists are expensive, but all their knowledge really helps!! Took us a year and a half to get Zayda's allergies and demodex sorted.... its a long and expensive road but worth it when you have a happy healthy pup Good luck Dan

Dogs with food allergies often get colitis..... Zayda used to be a mucous poo girl Its all part of the "fun" of dogs with such problems..... Colitis is a bit of an "irritable bowel" type symptom for such dogs: it happens because the bowel is inflamed by something they are allergic to. Colitis can also occur because something has irritated the bowel without necessarily being a specific allergen. As Inspector Rex says its not worth messing with go and see thy vet!!! Yep, you can just rock up with a mucous poo and a fecal float is not too expensive..... Aren't you glad you aren't the one that has to do a test called a "fecal float" though Good luck..... hopefully they've just eaten something a bit odd ;) Dan

*sigh* She sounds like my poor Zayda..... Some pups live a whole life time of troubles in a short few months don't they?? It took us almost a year to sort out all Zayda's problems and get her system in balance.... so it can take a while, but once you are there it is so worth it ;) A lot of vets don't seem to conversant on demodetic mange, so it doens't surprise me that your vet wasn't worried..... Keep an eye on her for the immune problems (like allergies) that dogs with DM often have/develop.... A lot of vets aren't too good at spotting allergies either!! I'd love to see some photos of Roxy's face.... I'm sure she's a pretty girl! Dan

Some people do react as you can to anything.... I've never had any sort of reaction... but I do know that some people can get nausea... I think they are more likely to constipate you but am not sure.... You can probably do a check on line for an ingredients and reactions list..... Dan Forgot: they wont hurt you if you don't have worms..... unless, of course you do get some nausea or something from them :p

It works... its a chemical worm killer like puppy all wormers are.... I've seen kids with worms and it certainly gets rid of them.... Fortunately I've never had them myself... Dan

Iarns, I also want to let you know that dogs can recover beautifully from this condition My beautiful girl, Zayda (the blondie in my avatar), has severe allergies and had terrible generalised demodex..... We worked really hard and got everything under control: now she is in beautiful condition and has been healthy for 2 of her 3 years of life...... She has recovered so well that the vets are all amazed: our dermatologist uses her as a case study of severe skin problems and how well a dog can recover (esp. with the determination and care of loving owners).... What breed of dog is roxy? Good Luck..... Dan

*sigh* my Am Staff, Asher, has exactly the same reaction with Revolution and Epi Otic (ear cleaner)..... It turns out that he is allergic to the propylene glycol which is the waxy carrier agent... It burns him severely and he is now scared of anything on his neck and in his ears... its turning into a long, slow desensitisation process for us now. We tried him on the frontline (which we had intended to move him onto anyway)... but he was too traumatised by his previous experience.... But now I'm wondering if he is actually sensitive to it as well, like your dog Pitchick... We have him on program now and capstar for when we've been at training.... Still looking for alternatives... with all the problems its caused us and Asher I'm not really happy with any of it anymore Dan Oh: forgot our dermatologist (Zayda's got allergies - argh!) put us in touch with pfizer and the vet there was very good and we filled out a lot of paper workfor their data etc.

Good point..... I only feed human grade...... Dan

Yep, if you have tape worms combantrim is what you want.... The thing is you have to have the worms to kill them.... It is not a preventative and wont stop you getting them in the future.... The only time I have ever wormed myself is when I knew I had been around worms and there was a possibility of having picked some up.... Otherwise there is not much point... Unless of course you are doing the kids regularly as a precaution as you do get them mostly in kids and they hang around in kindys!! As far as hydatid goes we use an all wormer that covers this because we do feed Roo to the pups and it does come from culled sources... However, most of the roo I feed them now is cooked training treats so its not a big risk at all..... Dan

Mine get frozen chicken wings with no problems.... In fact I've seen friends who have had problems with gulpy dogs move to frozen bones with success because they have to chew them more when they are frozen.... Helps teach them to chew properly..... And, as everyone else has pointed out, my dogs love their "chicksicles" on a hot day!! Dan