zayda_asher

Hmmmm 5mnts might be a bit old for "puppy staph", you'd have to check with your vet, or if you do a google you can probably find the info... Its def Staph infection, so just a matter of why he got it then... how long was he on the antibiotics for? Typically staph needs a 30day course at least to get it under control... anything under that will show improvement until the course is stopped... Like I said: if it becomes persistent or he gets them regularly then you need to start looking at other things. Does he itch a lot or any of the other symptoms I mentioned before?

I've heard of people using the Heska ELISA as a ground point and getting the dog under better control, then doing the intradermal later for a more precise picture if needed... so that may always be an option too... If you have people you are working with that you trust, then that's great... its the most important thing to trust your health profs and that's a personal thing and I apologize if I gave offense So did he come up allergic to any foods in the elimination? Did you retrial the salmon? I'm just not sure why you link the salmon to the hives if you think there's no food allergies (which is what I think you mean when you say "we know its not food allergy"), or did you mean we know he has food allergies, but that's not what we're dealing with now... Sorry... getting tired now, long day and I may just be confused

Oh and that's 1000mg containing EPA (the fatty acid) per 5 kilos and in plant based products the body had to convert ALA (from memory) to EPA, so often a higher dose is needed on plant based omega 3s... Oh, yep... found a link: http://womenshealth.com/health-library/71-...n-flax-seed-oil

How old is he? If he's young still I'd be very wary of adding new things whilst he is potentially still developing allergies... you could just be adding more things to the list that he will end up allergic to and limit your options!! Asher is allergic to tea tree because of skin products and I know a dog who is allergic to oatmeal because of skin products... Hmm, personally I wouldn't be satisfied with that... second hand info through someone that doesn't know the intricacies is just not as good.. good recipe for confusion. Have you done an elimination diet or not then? And if you are eliminating and clearing now, she wont see his full symptom pattern which gives important clues... I think I'd be concerned with this too... many dogs don't do well with antihists, but many do and a Derm should see both and know how to trial appropriately, what ones would work better with "hard cases" etc. They should be keeping up with modern research on such things. I guess I'm just used to my derm who is a "the more things we have in the arsenal to try, the better!" kind of person, in other words because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it wont work for someone else.. why limit yourself? But if they haven't really researched them and keep using the same "game plan" regardless of the dog, regardless of dosage size etc. they will probably continue to not have successes... its not a "one size fits all" thing... I don't mean to sound harsh, sorry if I do. Also often a dog in Orbit's condition may be hard to see the full effect of the anithists with because they are so over threshold, so find out what they are allergic to, get their environment cleared and the antihists can work more effectively... Omega 6 is already high in most diets and it causes inflammation so is good to avoid extras, some people find EPO doesn't work for them for this reason... What's the supplement you're using made of? Many dogs react to flax and alfalfa with chronic itching regardless of allergies or not - just seems to be something many don't tolerate. Try the Borage oil (star flower) then... its the other one found to be very good with allergies. What dose are you using - remember: 1000mg per 5 kilos of body weight for therapeutic dose. Have you done elimination diet: remember if you haven't specifically tested salmon and had a reaction it may not have been the salmon, but the potato or any of the other things in that diet. If it works it works ! Just thought I'd mention it as I know the pyohex is very strong shampoo... No worries! Good luck! :cool: Yep, it does suck... but those are the breaks hey? I always say: I can laugh or cry, so I'll choose laugh (although there's been a fair share of tears too lol)!

That sounds like a good routine... Question though: did you test goatsmilk when you did elimination? Even though he's not eating it he could still be reacting to the protein... Are you working with a Derm or just a GP vet? They should be stepping you though this antihistamine trial... Ok, Pau D'arco might work for him then... you can get it in tablet form or tea (and make a rinse)... 1000mg a day may help when he has an out break. Do a bit of research on it... it is a blood thinner so be aware of that also. Are you on Salmon oil? If not, why not?? That's the other thing that helps immensely to bring the inflammation under control in the skin... Or you can try the EPO of Borage oil. The grape fruit seed extract rinse I mentioned before may also help. And also the olive leaf extract (don't give with antibiotics though, it will stop them from working). I think the resichlor would be milder on him than the pyohex lotion though so not as irritating for daily use - would have to check that with your vet though... Yep. lamisil used similarly - our derms have been having great results and there's a spray that a lot of people and dogs find easier in application. Yeah, twice over! <sigh> Gotta love em but! If you search my user name and "allergies" I think there's some photos of Zayda in a thread from bad times... We've had reactions to treatments, hives (I came home to Zayda covered in half golf balls all over her the first time we had hives - looked liked she'd been mutated!!! Scary!), every bacteria, sudden and violent out breaks... the whole works and jerks!! But what can you do? Have to give them all the best and damn to the money... they're worth it! And when you have it under control they are happy kids! :cool:

What shampoo do you use on him now? A milder one would be fine as long as it works for you guys! Also we use a conditioner as well too because sometimes our guys will dry out when we have to up baths when they react, so we use the aloveen conditioner too. Some dogs respond really poorly to anithistamines unfortunately: what dosages are you using? We've had times where we've dose 3 x daily with 25mg phenergan, so there's certainly room to explore much higher doses sometimes.. I find the non-drowsy ones don't work anywhere near as well... Clorpheniramine, Pehenergan and Polaramine have all worked well for us (they will build a tolerance with long term use)... The resichlor is a god send... as is the lamisil. What sort of infection does he get on his skin? I have some other things that I use too depending on the thing... And don't get me wrong, Zayda had messy arm pits, terrible mouth and a big patch on her head... she was missing fur everywhere (also had generalised Demodex) and couldn't put on weight from the food allergies... bad yeast infections... so it wasn't all roses and wine... but we kept to a level we could live with to do the skin testing... So it wasn't a walk in the park... but we lived!

We actually weren't using cortisone because I am stubborn and didn't mind the extra work it meant to keep her comfy off it. She was (and still is) on antihistamines 2 x daily and the period for them to leave the system is much quicker from memory and then you can dose again as soon as they recover (in fact looking back at her admissions forms it doesn't say to withhold, but I'm sure we did). We bathed 3 x a week in Pyohex (didn't use Malaseb til later and we've also used Pyoben and Sebazole). We used Dermotic for her ears, which has a very low level topical dose of steriod, and again has a shorter withholding period. We also used antihistamine eye drops for her eyes. We bathed the areas 2 x daily that she scratched in clorhex rinse (now I'd use the resichlor lotion). And I kept on top of her to stop her scratching. You could also rinse daily to get the pollens off. Keep them in a jacket so they can't scratch themselves as much and that helps keep the pollens off. Keep them dry too (as in dehumidify if its humid and dry paws / keep warm if its cold) that helps if there might be mold allergies. In fact much later when she reacted to her immunotherapy (before we trialed it orally) she had another hideous patch and we again went back to the same routine... I've always saved oral steroids for the "big guns", like when she is stung... At this time she developed hives and we tried steroids and they didn't help her at all... So I did some research and we use olive leaf extract now.

Because your pup is so young it could be what they commonly refer to as "puppy staph" (Which is the bacterial folliculitis your vet mentioned) - sometimes they have staph outbreaks as their immune system is growing and developing... so its not something I would worry about yet... If it clears up and never comes back that's probably what it was. So fingers crossed that's all it is for you! If it persists or reappears and becomes an issue when he is older then its something to worry about... Staph lives on all our skin, but sometimes things go out of whack and it over grows and causes issues... Allergies is one cause... QAYC: I'm still working on getting that pic for you!! Its hard to photograph!

How do you get the epi-otic in his ears?? I'm surprised he lets that near him! I suppose it may not have helped if they were already irritated... Let us know how you go!

good luck with him.... I've been crappy this season too with my allergies... Could he have got water down his ear in the shower? That can cause infection too... You might be interested in this thread: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...p;#entry3105678

Meh. Me too! lol... ok then... as long as you know Hasn't made a bit of diff to my guys... But allergy dogs often have digestive issues anyway... as long as they are healthy in the gut we get the occasional fart like most creatures... no sweat. My guys are on full raw and eat veg. Yeah, she looks like she's got some mild ectropian (eye lids roll out)... that's heritable too... and they will get eye issues from it... Asher does too... Hmmm, could be blocked pores... or hives perhaps... Staph infection comes up like pimples too and sometimes their hard... I think I'd get that vet checked to make sure... You asked for it! For anyone who happens to look back at old posts you will prolly see we've added to the list since I last posted most likely <sigh> Zayda Food: Beef Lamb Corn Tuna Sardines Alfalfa and an intolerance for eggs Atopic: Alternaria mould Insect: Wasps Bees (Possible Anaphylaxis developing) Asher Atopic: Dandelion (All daisy family) Melaleuca (Tea Tree and related family) Fleas cocksfoot grass Johnson grass Yellow dock weed Deer Flys Dust mites Fodder mites Contact: Propylene Glycol (used in shampoos, ear cleaners, spot ons, vaccinations, semi-moist foods etc.) Sensitivities: Many chemicals and preservatives Both dogs also now react to Malaseb Shampoo

I'll try and get one today... might have to wait until Glen gets home to help out

Could've been staph infection, hives or bites... On his tummy are they round spots? Did he have the lumps there? Yes, they sound like scarring from staph infection... that's typically what it looks like, poor Asher has them... I can try and get a pic if you want... or you can try for pic to show us!

Yep, heaps! And no worries Yep... big wars! My guys are both extremely sensitive.... Zayda came home at 7 weeks scratching (extremely unusual) and was a mess before we sorted it. Asher had a more regular pattern of development and was tested at 1.5yrs. Zayda is 7yrs in Jan and Asher has just turned 5. We found both ours had a sensitivity / adjustment phase around 4.5yrs, although our Derm says that just goes to show our guys aren't normal as they've never seen it happen like that bang on cue before and not with the same severity! They are both used as case studies for her classes which is an odd honour!! Have you ever seen the list of their allergies - I can post if you want. Atopic dogs do tend to worsen with age, esp. if not treated or poorly treated. Well she is in the prime age for symptom development: normally 6mnts to 3ish yrs... although it can obviously be earlier or later too. Zayda is a whoops cross from an idiot and Asher is purebred, from a breeder. He was our attempt to avoid allergies <sigh> It happens to both and does happen to the best sometimes... Allergies are poorly understood by most and many deny or fail to understand that they are heritable so breed with allergy dogs... Or don't even recognize or know that its in the lines... I think its slowly becoming something responsible people are talking more about. Interestingly enough I hear a lot of AmStaff people saying their dogs do really poorly on Euk... you may want to ask on the AST forums... And you could try freezing the dried food as that kills storage mites... I have a paper from the study done... if you want give me an e-mail and I can send it on with some articles from Dr Dodds... Its pretty science-ish so a hard read though... (Dodds articles are nicer!). Dr Dodds called it a "landmark" piece of research when I spoke to her... She recommends to avoid revaccination for the atopic dog! Thanks... I am always happy to share knowledge and help those who care...

Apparently you can only quote so many times in one post so this is a two parter! Definitely try not to let them get that bad!! Prevention is better and all that... make sure you dry their toes well if wet too, that helps. And be aware that sometimes you need to repeat course if it gets that bad... with Staph for example a standard 7 day course isn't enough, it will bring it under control, but it will just break out again normally unless you do a month long course (horrible!)... so they can be quite stubborn. Hah! Well there's a behviour issue for you to have fun with... licking can be OCD - its one of the things we ask about on our Behavioural questionnaires - common with anxious dogs. Certainly could be her tail... but something to keep an eye on... and look for the other things as an escalation in symptoms (although certainly dogs display their own patterns and may not have all or even most of the "classics" while others have the whole kit!). Do here eye lids droop (bottom ones)? Its something that they shouldn't do and I find it helps get things in and irritate the eye... Asher really suffers... Cool... we used to use it straight... cream is much easier! Consult with your vet re: antihistamines... always good to do in consult... but be aware a lot of local vets know not much about allergies and don't treat that well... that's why specialists are good.

Oh and was she vaccinated recently? Vaccination has been found to effect a dog's ability to cope with atopy.

No worries! Malaseb daily is pretty harsh (would dry and irritate). I do that fortnightly (or weekly if BAD) with their bath and use the resichlor and a Pau D'arco rinse in between. Actually I don't use Malaseb at all any more because my guys started reacting to it and we couldn't work out why (Derm was stumped as well!) so now we use Episoothe and Aloveen conditioner (can't use ES conditioner as it has propylene glycol and Asher has a severe reaction to it). If they are that bad antibiotics are useful too sometimes depending on the the grade of infection and the bacteria - they would have helped you clear it quicker for future ref. I use Elocon .1% cream only if at the end of the tether. I always save steroid treatment for the "big guns"... Grape Fruit Seed extract rinses (about 70-80 drops in 24foz (don't ask me to convert that sorry)) works well. Its helped with Asher's staph infections a lot. Hmmm, interesting that it's localised in that sense... watch them... see if they ever come up like her belly. I'd keep an eye on both their ears then... I spoke to my vet and colleagues (Behvaviour consults) at length about this sort of behaviour and a bit of grooming is normal, but if its obsessive / compulsive it an often indicate a change in ear (or mouth too) health (unless Angel is just OCD ) Learn what they smell like when normal (and breath too) as these can change with infection. Mm-hm, she is starting to sound pretty symptomatic Keep and eye on the colour of the snot too... that can indicate infection as well. We use Patanol antihistamine eye drops when the eyes are bad, you need a script. Their human and the best ones I've used too! Does she ever get a discharge from her vulva and what are her poos like (sloppy, jelly coated, nice etc.). Scratch at her mouth / rub her eyes? Both Its basically Chlorhexidene (antibacterial - you know the pink stuff they use at surgeries?) in a lotion... much more soothing and it coats the area. We've also had success with Lamisil (depending on bacteria) for tail and toes. Right... Fish oil daily and at therapeutic dose or you might get a shiny coat and not much else! Antihistamine dose is prolly too low too. For comparison Asher is 31k and Zayda is 23k, we split the diff on the caps and they get 5 each (4 Salmon oil and 1 EPO) daily and 25mg Phenergan 2 x daily. I can tell when the antihistamines wear off before next dose too... Sorry Not a nice thought is it? Sad thing is though that one flea bite will trigger reaction in an allergic dog so you may not even know its happened! And You guys are having issues with fleas over that way aren't you? Our guys are often sensitive to chemicals so that's something to bare in mind... Also daisies are a common allergy and Pyrethrum is daisy family... I actually don't use anything on my guys unless I need to and Asher is flea allergic... He's horror sensitive to chemicals though and allergic to daisies so no pyreth either Sounds like she's developing a nice symptom pattern there... good luck with her... feel free to ask away with any questions Oh and what do they eat? Storage mites are turning out to be a major trigger for a lot of dogs (dried food stuffs) and many insects trigger allergies so you can try repellents (again be aware of whats in them: we use neem and lavender oil when needed).

The areas certainly sound like atopic (air borne) allergies... Have you looked at her feet too? Both tops and bottoms and all feet (dogs seem to be personal in where e.g.: Zayda's is top, in between toes, with the right rear worst, but all feet where as Asher is underneath and only rear feet). Are her ears red or does she shake head a lot? Snore? Runny nose? Snotty eyes? There's a product called resichlor that is great for doing places like feet / tail... yeah, they will lick, but just try and prevent them for a little while for it to soak in... my guys give in pretty quickly now as long as I'm persistent in stopping them to start with. What does of fish oil and what does of antihistamines are you giving... remember she's a bigger dog than the others... The important thing to understand with allergies is they develop over time so they are most likely to be allergic to the things they are most commonly exposed to... how old is she roughly? Therapeutic dose for fish oil is a 1000mg per 5 kilos. Some people also have success with Evening primrose and Borage (starflower) oils. Check her for flea dirt too as that's a common allergy... and often is near the back end where they are bitten. Its hard to know unless you actually fork over for the testing... and its hard to treat too because sometimes they are actually developing allergies to the things we use to treat them (for example Asher is allergic to tea tree, which is in 99.9% of alternative skin care products)...

Its been crappy up and down weather like that here too Given he has had other skin issues its worth keeping this all in mind, as ear infections can be connected... so if you get a recurrence it may be something more, but certainly could just be the weather too - fingers crossed! How old is he now? If it persists or gets worse it is worth getting it cleaned properly as if he starts really scratching and worrying at it you may end up with yeast infection as well (and other damage too if he shakes a lot). Sometimes they find out it was worse deeper down too... might be worth having a good look if it persists... but I'd try clear it first certainly!! And yeah, get teeth done at same time... We will be doing that soon... <sigh>

Oh, and be careful not to push air into the ear canal... that can hurt! Good that his skin seems good... What's the weather been like there? That can effect things like bacteria growth...

Ok, its worth knowing that rod shaped are the harder of the three to get rid of often... Ok, since they are viscous you can try what I find works: load a cotton ball and then you can get that in the ear and squeeze... Gets more of the drops in. Helps if the dog is used to having their ears cleaned with plain balls / tissues so you may want to practice that as well if he's not. As you approach with the cotton ball feed him a really high value treat as you put it in his ear keep feeding and when you remove it stop feeding (two people help for this, or you can smear paste like liver, peanut or cheese on the fridge in a thick line for one person). This way you are starting to associate it with good things and desnesitise the process. Practicing continuously when you don't have to do drops will help too. You can do the same with it on your finger too if that's easier. Pau D'arco can work orally for bacterial infection and you can make an infusion of it (buy the tea) and put it in mineral oil as an ear cleaner (I can dig up instructions probably). Some people also find that Grape Fruit Seed extract orally (or again as a topical application on skin, I wouldn't use in ears) can help... I've mostly used these for Staph, so that's my experience with them, but you could try for Rod Shaped.

Did she say what sort of bacteria (yeast / staph / rod shaped)? What's the drops? Are they runny or viscous? Will he let you near him with anything like cotton balls? ETA: and what's his skin look like atm? Welcome to 20 questions with Dan lol

Yep, I couldn't agree more... best option is to go see a Vet Derm and get a proper diagnosis... It may not *just* be atopic allergies either, could be food, insects, contact etc. A Vet Derm will help you determine all this, or if it is allergies at all (as said could be thyroid or other things too)... I have two allergic dogs and you have to know what the dog is actually allergic too or you can make them worse, for example my boy is allergic to Tea Tree, so using anything with Tea Tree (which many skin care products do) is a big no-no as it will actually make him have a reaction! Vet Derms are specialists and know much more than your GP vet on this issue... For example a dog your size should most likely be on more than half an antihistamine and one fish oil cap a day (as a comparison my 31kilo and 23kilo dogs get 4 fish oil caps and 1 EPO cap a day and 2 antihistamines a day)... The other nice thing about knowing what your dog is allergic to and clearing out the environment etc. is that you can often ditch the steroids in the long term (i.e.: daily use) and only use them as "the big guns" if they do have a big flare. And you can also look at other therapies like ASIT (allergen specific immuno therapy) If you do a search of the health forum for "allergies" and my user name "zayda_asher" you should find lots of allergy threads with info... Good luck

Oral fish oil and vit e should help as well too... nice glossy coat and help with the skin inflammation...

I agree ILA... buy a brand you know is preservative free and mix it yourself I don't like VIP myself; their treats smell really odd and we had a really hard time with them when we were trying to get more specific info on the ingredients in them. They absolutely REFUSED to tell us and our Dermatologist what the magic mystery ingredients were... that's not something to inspire confidence imo!! :D :shakehead: If you were over here I'd recommend some good products... but they're local companies...