zayda_asher

Blimey! That's crap... makes me glad my Derms do everything in house!! I hope they are giving you a refund / retest!! Right, gotcha... Any news? Yeah, it is a start... how painful for you all though!!

For the elimination diet you need to be on it for AT LEAST 7 weeks with NOTHING else... the vet did tell you that right? No supplements or anything... they could all be things she is allergic to... you haven't a clue what she has had in the past and you need her on totally novel foods for elimination so in her case Z/D probably is best option... If you are giving her extras on top of the novel food then it ain't gonna work... Fish are a common allergen and most EFAs have fish oil... Make sure your antihistamines have no additives like lactose or soy fillers. Yep, I would expect improvement too... and if you talk to the top nutritionalists (like Monica Segal) they say "detox" is not a real effect anyway... Intradermal (prick test) skin testing is the gold standard for assessing atopy. The HESKA Elisa blood panel should only be used in conjunction with intradermal or in cases where intradermal can't be done for some reason. Blood tests SHOULD NOT be used to assess food allergy... a derm will tell you that they do not work well for such due to the nature of food allergy in the dog. See this info from my Derm: If you want to do this all properly I would outlay the money and consult with a good Derm... they have all the skills and tools you need to do it properly the first time and save you money in the long run! It would be very rare for a dog to have one true allergy in isolation, so chances are if there's one there are others. Yes there are true food allergies and also intolerance as well, it can be hard to tell them apart, they are grouped together correctly as "Adverse food reactions". If this were my dog I'd get a ref to a Derm and start with them... Sounds like Atopy to me and maybe some other things. How old approx do you think she is?

I'm wondering if anyone has any idea of where in Australia I might be able to obtain food grade Borage (Starflower) oil? The one I can get here locally is the Nature's Own brand and they only do a bottle of 30 caps, which is not very economical when you use 4-5 caps a day! So I'm looking for a bigger bottle of caps, or loose oil, whatever... I'm in WA, but will order interstate if that's not an issue for the company... Thanks. ETA: use is for EFAs for allergic skin disease

Man, that's crap! I really feel for you guys... Have you been able to dig and ask any more questions? I thought that was odd about the withholding when you said it, have you been able to find out about that? Why don't they recommend immunotherapy? That all just seems odd Our derms do everything in house, which is great from the POV of knowing that the person you are dealing with did the testing!! Hope you have some answers soon...

Thanks... She is settling down with the colitis now... but we are more itchy: so we're trying borage oil for EFAs seeing we had to go off our regulars for the elimination diet... Also I think the immunotherapy is causing some itching now too as we are on to the next strength vial.. Allergy dogs tend to go in cycles, so you have a good run and then a not so good one... Did you get him in? What suggestions were made? Hope you got some good starting ideas... No worries... glad to support and help other people in the same boat who want to do the best for their dogs Climate and area you live in certainly do seem to make a difference... and some dogs seem to be more prone to flea infestation... It is said that dogs in good health / condition will be less attractive to fleas... maybe its one of those old wives tails, but maybe you will see an improvement as you get the allergies under control and get his system functioning better too... Maybe then you can try using other things again! Never hurts to retry stuff when you are in a better / different position to what you were... You too...

Hey Stormie, any news on Orbit's HESKA results? Fingers crossed for you they come soon! Zayda has been pretty good, but we had a reaction yesterday with her third dose of ASIT (0.4ml on the lowest dose vial). She had an injection site lump on her left shoulder, probably about the size of a bean. We've been doing each vial in the same shoulder each time so we know which is causing the issues if it continues. She was also perhaps a bit more sooky than normal (following me around a bit) and was also licking her lips some as she does when she is feeling ill (although she also did this last night too so it may be general allergy reaction and not the vaccine). And also some lethargy... The lump concerns me as this is the reaction we were getting when we took her off her alternaria vaccine, along with urticaria. No urticaria this time so far, although the lump is also not anywhere near as big as the ones we had with the alternaria ASIT (that was at full strength when we had those reactions). That's why we went to oral dosing with the alternaria... So I canceled our arvo client as I didn't think it was fair to expect her to work on the back of a reaction and I'm waiting to hear from the Derm... Today she is fine... lump has gone and she is up and happy... so have to see what we do now... ETA: and we've also been colitis-ish since the testing... could just be from the extreme reaction to the intradermal testing though, have to check what our poops are like today...

Meh. No worries... my brain is shot these days too!! Certainly that is where you tend to see fleas, and I suppose she says those spots for contact allergies because a dog would lie on those areas more I suppose... but Neck, shoulders and sides are all spots my dogs itch with atopy... and contact allergies will be where ever there is contact so with Asher's it tends to be neck / back / ears because of the products involved, or all over if its a shampoo or in his mucosal linings in his mouth (where he sensitised to his oral immunotherapy), or on his feet when he has reacted to some lawn chemicals... so really they can be anywhere... again I often wonder if I do this myself! Interesting... we've had Asher done when he is all scabby... but maybe his infections were worse than Trixie's and, even though scabby, there were more open sores there too... I would've still thought they could test to see if there was bacteria on the skin... I know we've had it run to be sure and the result has been negative, so its not black and white I don't think... Of course I'm not a vet either and can only go on my own experiences with this stuff... Cool... just seems weird to raise it as a possibility if its not really a possibility if you know what I mean! :D Its certainly worth going armed with a list of questions / things to ask about... I very rarely go to out appointments with out a sheet of questions to help jog my poor brain!!

interesting post here: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=117892 and here: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=150567 on atopica

Aw, sad face! Such performers aren't they?

Ok, there's a few things I don't get in the info the vet has given you... so I'll run through them: Ok, ever heard of interdigital cysts? Quite often linked with atopy... They're not really cysts, but a deep pyoderma. http://www.barkbytes.com/medical/med0025.htm http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/INTERDIGITAL-FURUNCLES.HTM Always nice to hear! Fleas are quite common for allergies, as are other insects like horse flies and even house flies... and can cause secondary bacterial skin infection! We see staph with Asher.... What makes her say contact allergy? They aren't all that common... Absolutely possible... Now this makes me wonder... Atopy is by far the most common form of allergy in dogs... its really uncommon to see a dog that has other allergies and not atopy... Until her retesting Zayda was considered an oddity because she had one known atopy and all food allergies, very uncommon... as we can see she developed a boatload more! If a dog has allergies its normal to suspect atopy as the top culprit and work down from there depending on symptoms... Also I would suspect that atopy would be the most likely to respond and be kept in check with only antihistamines... so that fact that she's responded so well with antihistamines could be a big clue there... Did she do the simple and cheap cytology to check for bacterial infection on the skin (rub a slide on infected area and look under microscope - my vets do this all the time, take half a min and I have the results straight away)? For staph infection the standard course is 30 days... its stubborn to treat and may clear whilst on a shorter course, but will often reappear as soon as you stop it. But then if she didn't do the cytology you don't know what you are treating either (staph, yeast, rod shaped bacteria...) That would be the start of an elimination diet (probably was z/d ultra)... does she suspect food allergies? Why? Why go through an unneeded elimination diet? Esp. if you may have to re-do it with a derm anyway!? And I wouldn't do it with kibble anyway, use a novel protein and carb, she'll be much more interested in that - z/d is boring bland!! No derm worth their salt is going to whack you on atopica without testing to see what the cause of issues are... Atopica is just another drug (cyclosporin, which is an immune suppressant), so if they put you on it without knowing if its suitable I would run away very quickly! And why would she suggest atopica if she's sure she's not atopic??

Well good to hear she is feeling better They can always do the cytology to see if there is a bacterial infection in the skin, even if it has subsided... so you can ask about that too if you need to ETA: Make sure you mention it responded to the malaseb... that's a pretty good clue as its a medicated shampoo for bacterial infection...:cool:

Good luck with her and let us know how you go... I know we have had horse fly bites precipitate a staph infection here with Asher, so its possible that one has caused the other too... but if it is staph then that's probably a good clue that it might be time to start looking deeper at what is causing it...

Vet check and find out what it is... that does sound like it could be staph infection, which can creep up over time, so she might have all come up yesterday, but its been brewing for a while (or she was exposed to more pollens being out)... or it could be bites: my guys are allergic to some things like horse flies etc. so yes, that's a possibility... need to find out what it actually is, then you will know what you need to start doing from there... Time to find that vet!

Thanks heaps Stormie... that means a lot to me I've always said that I hoped that what I've learned with my guys could be shared and help others who found themselves on the same journey, so I'm really happy that its made a difference for you There's heaps to learn, its a fascinating topic, although it would've been nice not to have to have so much up close experience! A plan of attack makes such a difference, for me anyway... I have a chart and list of "to do" things written up now, what foods we need to re-test, our immunotherapy schedule... it all helps to have a plan, keep a reaction log and know from that what might need tweaking etc. Support is really important on this journey... it makes such a difference to talk to people going through the same thing... So feel free guys to drop me a line if you ever need someone to talk to or vent at etc. :D That gave me a laugh! Our Derms ask that as a question on the intake forums "do you find your dog makes you itchy"... I find you acclimatise or get used to your own dogs... now my guys only make me itch or welt if they are really bad... but friends or clients with allergic dogs, they will set me off real quick, I've even been able to suggest some clients check their dogs out after they've made me itch and I've asked more about it and there are some "classic" signs present... Its much the same as it is with people... Here's a definition of the difference (human example though so symptoms will be different): http://www.disability.vic.gov.au/dsonline/...ce?opendocument In dogs intolerances will often resolve if the food is presented differently (raw vs cooked for example)... This is where you often hear people claim their dogs "allergies" were cured by a raw diet or similar (of course we know there's no cure for the true allergy). I find with Zayda that she is so sensitive that a kibble sized piece of food will trigger a major reaction and its within that immediate time after eating (digestion time), where as the things she is intolerant of are definitely on that build up to threshold point. So what is described in that definition rings true for us. Symptoms of both are quite similar so its up to actual testing to see if there is the immune response... so it all tends to get grouped together as "adverse food reactions" (in both people and animals). Yes, definitely... this is a lot of how I've managed my guys and kept them in condition. Some people / areas seem to have worse problems with fleas... Both my guys and myself are flea allergic and we never treat!! Never had fleas, and believe me, we would know if we did!! I do keep capstar and program on hand in case... Heartworm is the only thing I give regularly. And its not that my dogs don't go out either: we do sports, dogs come with me to do consultations, visit parks and canine for classes etc... I Do know some people here who have had flea issues, but I'm certainly not amongst them... when we did tracking (in the bush) I would spray with neem & lavender and check them over closely for tics / fleas, we've never had a one... we don't have paralysis tics here which makes things a bit easier... ETA: minimal chemicals are good for allergy dogs... effects their immune system and they can also sensitise to them... its worth reading up on the different chems too and seeing what else they treat, for example some heartwormers do cover other worms etc. Obviously area and proliferation of fleas or whatever will effect what you can and can't do..

Oh Ruth, seeing you've had paw issues this might be one to look out for too: When Asher has a bad reaction sometimes his paw pads will crack, peel and come off... that's one that we haven't seen in a while so I forgot... that's normally if his feet do get bad and he starts chewing at them, that's actually when we had to put him on antihistamines...

No worries.... I didn't think you were Yeah, allergies are a lot more complex than people realise... its worth doing some research to have a look at symptoms etc. because there are plenty besides the itching... there's some good stuff out on the web if you search... also there's a difference between allergy and intolerances which most people don't realise either... At the end of the day I suppose the important thing to remember is that a dog that has true allergies has an immune system that isn't working properly.

Thanks! Yep, and staph overgrowth means that the immune system is just not coping, so you're leaving the dog prone to other issues too whilst they are trying to fight off the staph... Another one to watch out for if we didn't mention it back there somewhere is that sensitive skin people will often itch from contact with allergy dogs: you cross react to each other (I'm itching at the moment from Zayda)! So my reaction sometimes lets me know if the dogs are having an out break and I can get on to it even if I can't see any symptoms on the dog yet Good early warning system sometimes.

Itchy certainly isn't the only symptom of allergies either... One of Zayda's for example gives her massive digestive issues, no itching... she is in so much pain with it, and normally ends up throwing up and with colitis... Another gives her ADD type behaviour and again digestive issues... so its not always itching that causes the discomfort either... ETA: And even recently with Zayda's hive out breaks she has not been massively itch before as she used to be (she used to rip her skin apart), but we've been having the huge hive outbreaks and then she is really itchy whilst she has them... and they are painful and stressful for her too... but she's certainly not deteriorated again into the stereotypical "itchy allergy dog" again like she used to be, although she's been a bit worse since the hives... I guess my point was just don't think that "if the dog's not 100% itchy all the time it can't be allergies" because it surely can and there's symptoms just as bad as itchy and they aren't always as obvious if that makes sense

Because you're seeing other symptoms like the staph infections. I mean obviously if you were seeing NO symptoms then you'd never even know... What I meant is that some dogs go from nothing to everything with out the in between stuff... So for example Asher's last out break took three days to develop: day 1 hives, day two hives not resolving, day three the worst Staph out break out derm has pretty much ever seen... So yeah, when he's symptomatic its often massive, but the build up to that is not much... And the staph infections are hugely uncomfortable: with that one Asher was in so much pain he couldn't move without whimpering (and bear in mind we are talking AmStaff and high pain threshold here), he will also then get itchy with the staph infection (but isn't generally without), lethargy, oily horrible skin, peeling skin, pussy staph sores etc. etc. What I was meaning was not "hey, great I have an allergy dog with NO symptoms" but rather that some might only have a few of the whole gamut of symptoms that there can be. For Asher is symptoms are quite mild until crisis point... so its treatment and maintenance to prevent that from happening. So Asher's "normal" symptoms would be: Snotty eyes and nose mild itching (face, ears, paws) Then his "threshold breaking" symptoms would be Mid range itching (face, ears, paws) Change in smell of breath and coat Low grade staph infection, reasonably treated at home Colitis Full symptoms Diarrhea / colitis massive staph infection, as described above So it is managed and only treated as needed... but compared to many dogs he has very low symptoms... Zayda for example has almost the entire range...

Yeah, someone on here may know a good vet... its a good place that way Right, so at two you would expect her to pretty much have a full symptom pattern (or close to any way)... Some dogs can be quite allergic with quite few symptoms though (Asher is like this) so that's worth bearing in mind too... To add to that: Asher hardly ever scratches for example... so its not out of the realms of possibility to have a high allergy, low itch dog! If he does start itching its normally in his seasonal time and it will be eyes and feet and that's a really good cue for us that he is really reaching threshold and its time to knock into emergency management to fend off worse reaction.

Sorry to hear you're going through this... Ugh! I sympathize... we certainly have a pair!! The thing that was such a big shock for me (if I didn't say this already) was that her original test way back only came up with one positive, so I was expecting maybe a few, but not the whole damned thing!! Yeah, they are different depending on location... Has he been getting ear infections from the allergies? Zayda used to get bad ear infections... Poor little blighters! Yeah, we certainly kept a log of all the stuff we did with the first elimination diet and will do so again this time around too... I'm about to write up a list of all the things we will have to test, some will be done top of the list as we want to know about them sooner and some will be more likely culprits (because they are more common allergens)... so those will probably be an early test too... We are also keeping a log for her immunotherapy and reactions too whilst we are in the induction phase... its a bit of a pain, even for an anal retentive person like me , but it is a huge help!

Yeah, someone on here may know a good vet... its a good place that way Right, so at two you would expect her to pretty much have a full symptom pattern (or close to any way)... Some dogs can be quite allergic with quite few symptoms though (Asher is like this) so that's worth bearing in mind too...

Well it might be worth a trip to the vet for a check if she smells yeasty... always good to make sure we are treating the right thing! For yeast we find the resicholor, bathing and lamisil all work. It could be that she is getting worse as she ages (how old do you think she is?)... or it could be unrelated incidents too! Or she could be allergic to several things and one lot is worse at one time than the other...

Same here, that is bad enough without them telling me what they really think!

Right... well watch and see if she scratches there... Zayda actually has lumps from scratching at the base of her head... Does she smell different? My dogs both have distinct changes in smell with the infections... Yest is beery or fresh yeasty bread smell... I find Asher gets a sort of fishy smell to his coat and a coppery blood sort of smell to his breath. If it is staph we have had good success with Pau D'arco as both an oral and topical treatment. You can buy a cream to use at the health food store or make a tea and use it as a rinse. The resichlor or lamisil also works topically on the staph too.. Orally for the PD I give 1000mg daily for maintenance with Asher (but she doesn't sound that bad so you may not need to do this) or 1000mg 2 x daily for 2 days then 500mg 2 x day for one day and this will often knock a small infection off. Also soaking in Malaseb or episooth helps. If its a hugely bad outbreak then antibiotics and its a minimum 30day course because staph is hard to knock off Look in her toes both tops and bottoms and see if they are red stained at all too... that's the other place we see a lot of infection on Asher... its often a good first sign for him...