Seanbuzz

It sounds like you've had a tough time, I really didn't mean to upset you or anyone, and I'm truly sorry to have done so.

Thank you all for the info, I'll read that paper and go through skeptvet.com tonight It is a tricky situation, I'm also looking into the compounding effect of possibly traumatic events. As she is already 1yr old, has traveled from the US, leaving her known family behind I'm afraid adding another potentially traumatic event, right as she needs to start bonding with us could cause her to relate all of those traumatic events with us. I worry this could potentially prevent her from properly bonding with us. Especially when you consider in relation to desexing we will be dropping her off and picking her up, so of all the scary events, the one that happens right as she might be starting to settle down is instigated by us. In all honesty, I hadn't thought about just how scary such a journey could be for a dog, especially when they don't get to reunite with their known family/pack at the end of it, I'm feeling like a monster. All I can do now is put my best effort in to helping her settle in, in every way I possibly can.

@Rebanne I hope not, perhaps if we leave out the "early" part and say desexing before growth platelets have closed which is often between 16-24 months. The Alaskan Klee Kai is prone to certain health problems that are statistically significantly linked to desexing dogs before they are fully developed. The Alaskan Klee Kai has developed by mixing four breeds of dog, the Schipperke, and American Eskimo along with the Siberian and Alaskan Huskies. Both the Schipperks and American Eskimo are ranked quite highly on a worldwide scale indicating risk factors for Patella Luxation which can lead to tears in the Cruciate Ligament. The other serious condition show to affect populations of Klee Kais that's statistically linked to early desexing is Hypothyroidism. Due to the inclusion of the larger dogs, and given that she is on the large side for an Alaskan Klee Kai it is reasonable to expect her growth platelets close at a later stage than in other small dogs, therefore should not be desexed before 18-24 months of age. From a psychological point of view, this dog is just coming out the end of a series of Traumatic events. Including being taken from the only family she has known, treated as a piece of luggage, on three occasions transported in dark noisy plane cargo holds, one such event stretching for 16 hours. She has undergone numerous Vet checks from strange vets, twice stayed in temporary accommodation, once in LA and then in Australia at the Post Entry Quarantine facility. She has been passed from stranger to stranger more times than I care to think about, and now after 10 day’s, probably just as she was starting to get used to life at the Quarantine facility she will be uprooted again to finally meet her new family. To immediately include the trauma of major Surgery just as she needs to be acclimating to her new family is likely to mean she associates that trauma along with everything she has just gone with to her new family severely affecting her to bond with her new family causing serious future psychological problems. Due to a dog's limited perspective and ability to comprehend things around them to the same degree, along with their reliance on the humans they know and trust it is hard to argue that most of this, especially when combined wouldn't lead to psychological trauma, and as seen with humans psychological problems can often lead to physical symptoms and illness. (Sorry for the bold above, I wrote this somewhere else and pasted it in but can't seem to turn it off ) After writing the psychological point of view above, I feel like a monster for putting her through all that. I was telling myself plenty of dog's go through it, I'm sure all the people along the way will treat her with care etc etc. But then I think that a lot of the dogs who do go through that would still get to return to their families, their known packs at the end of it all. Having their families at the end, and I've got to say for a family to go through the hoops and time making sure their loved fur babies don't get left behind they are truly great families, but at least would result in the restoration of much of what they consider normal, reducing possible effects of the trauma. Unfortunately, our dog won't get that chance on top of it all she has to bond with a totally new family, I know we will love her and care for her and give her everything she needs, but I can't help but think of hard it will be for her during the initial stages

No worries, I'd already looked into it so I knew where to find it and someone else here might find it helpful anyway

@Rebanne she will be1year 1month &1 week old

Are you still in SA? From what I can see the requirement is set at 6 months rather than 3 here in Vic. Also, Vets can lodge (online) for an exemption for it to be done later (1st link below), and at least the rules do specifically acknowledge possibly needing to delay it for Large Breeds (Second link below, in the 3rd paragraph under the heading on the top right). In SA I think you should be ok http://gooddogsa.com/desexing-b686720d-17b6-40c8-8919-f4339cf3876e http://gooddogsa.com/media/W1siZiIsIjIwMTcvMDkvMDYvZmE5Z2RwN2plX0RDMjkxX0ZBX0RDTUJfQnJlZWRlcnNfLnBkZiJdXQ/DC291_FA[DCMB_Breeders].pdf I've been googling for Vets who acknowledge the issues, most of the results have been in SA or WA. About 6 or 7 pages into google I finally found one here in VIC, they seem like an all round great Veterinary Practice so fingers crossed. Though I'm still interested to hear if anyone does know of others

I'm aware there's increasing evidence to suggest that early desexing can cause a few health problems later in life including; Juvenile or underdeveloped brains, serious endocrine adrenal and thyroid problems, and it can also affect the density of bones leading to increased chances of joint problems. All of the research I can find is orientated towards desexing before an animal has fully developed, once they have fully developed it is usually best to desex them preventing other issues including cancers which can be prevented through desexing the dog. I believe the consensus is that Dogs are fully developed by the time they are 18-24 months old. Does anyone know/know of a Vet (In Victoria) who are aware of this research? Some of you may have seen the thread I posted in the General Forum, but basically, we need an exemption until she is 24 months old. This would will us enough time to move from this Council area. It will also give my submission to the Department of Agriculture a chance to be assessed (My submission is in relation to an exemption for those classified as micro-breeders, I'm asking they be exempt from requirements to desex in the Victorian Council areas who enforce it). Even if we can only get an exemption till 18 month's that would be better than nothing. I'm seeking Vet recommendations Please Feel free to PM me if you prefer. Cheers

Today I spoke with the Governors Office, Department of Agriculture Victoria and Brimbank's Animal Department. The Governor's office said to seek the Governor to apply for an exemption (as they have the power to do) the request would need to go through the relevant department (Department of Agriculture) The Department of Agriculture we're helpful, they recommended writing an email explaining the problem, relevant sections of the act, and show examples on how SA and NSW have policies where even small breeders can be exempt from the requirement to desex an animal. They said they could expedite things due to my somewhat urgent situation but not sure a resolution could really be reached in the timeframe I have. I finally got through to the animaI department at Brimbank, YAY!!! lol. The person I spoke to was great though, I got a fair bit of info. He doubts the Council would use their powers to make a resolution exempting me from the requirement of desexing, they have never done it before. So through Brimbank, the only option would be to have a Vet write an exemption. I'm aware there is increasing evidence to suggest the early desexing can cause a few health problems later in life including; Juvenile or underdeveloped brains, serious endocrine adrenal and thyroid problems, and it can also affect the density of bones leading to increased chances of joint problems. So all of the research I can find is orientated towards desexing before the animal had fully developed, once they have fully developed it is usually best to desex them to prevent other issued and cancers which can be prevented through desexing the dog. I believe the consensus is that Dogs are fully developed by the time they are 18-24 months old. Does anyone Know/know of a Vet who's aware of this research? basically what we need is an exemption until she is 24 months old. This would give us enough time to arrange to move from this Council area, it would also give my submission to the Department of Agriculture a chance to be assessed. Even if we can only get an exemption till 18 month's that would be better than nothing. Cheers

Ok thank you, I'll look into it some more. I'm not convinced though, everything I can find states 3 or more, and this chart specifically states if you have fewer than 3 you are not a Breeder http://agriculture.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/305802/G_Toolkit-Are-you-a-breeder-July-2015-040615.pdf. Under No for 3 or more animals in the above document, it points to this following code Which again re-affirms the definition of 3 or more http://agriculture.vic.gov.au/pets/dogs/legal-requirements-for-dog-owners/code-of-practice-for-the-private-keeping-of-dogs As of their last Animal management plan, Brimbank had a total of 8 Domestic Animal Businesses, of any category, but none of them breeders. The only other possibility I can think of would be to have it classified as a business by the ATO. Their website is down at the moment, but I know they have requirements to be considered a business and not a hobby. Is there anyone here who has done, or tried these options for fewer than 3? or does anyone know of anyone and could you possibly point them in my direction so I can get some more info? Thank you

Thank you for the link, it's just at this point I don't want 3 female breeding dogs (a requirement to be a breeding domestic animal business). Even if I did, there is the time factor for importation, and after some unfortunate events that happened with another Klee Kai breeder here a couple of years ago the US community are very wary of Australia, in the end, I've been very lucky. Domestic animal business meaning - look for capital (B) and then (ii) under it.

Thanks for the comments Sorry, it's taken me so long to respond, I've had my head stuck in Council, State, ANKC and KC legislation/regulations etc. I'm slowly learning how to make sense of this sort of stuff Unfortunately, not being registered with Dogs Victoria and with two or fewer breeding dogs I'd be classified as a micro-breeder. The domestic Animals act defines micro-breeder as not being registered with the applicable organisation (Dogs Vic), and sets out we are still required to apply for a source number and what information we must provide to apply for that source number. but other than that I can't determine if micro-breeders are can or can't be forced to desex our dogs to register them with a council. Also, from what little information I can find on Domestic Animal Breeding Businesses in relation to Brimbank, it looks like even they are required to desex unless members of an applicable organisation. http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/LTObject_Store/ltobjst10.nsf/DDE300B846EED9C7CA257616000A3571/6864F3B9893D65E2CA25826B007B8B9D/$FILE/94-81aa074 authorised.pdf https://www.brimbank.vic.gov.au/plans-policies-and-strategies/plans/domestic-animal-management-plan The KC (in the UK) appears to allow un-desexed cross breeds in their Activity Register (As the Alaskan Klee Kai isn't a recognised breed it might as well be a cross breed as far as they are concerned so I'd be in) And on top of allowing un-desexed dogs in their Activity register they also administer an Assured Breeders Scheme. It seems to include much of what the Vic gov requires/is trying to achieve, and in cooperation with local governments they fully enforce and conduct inspections to ensure compliance etc. Cross Breeds are also allowed in the Assured Breeding Scheme, all without jeopardising their reputation or affiliation with International registries. Sorry if you' know this stuff already, It's all new to me and unfortunately, I'm having to learn about it while it's working against me. I messaged the Alaskan Klee Kai breeder in Sydney the other day, and we've been messaging back n forth a bit. Unfortunately, I don't think they can really do anything to help me in my immediate situation, but I'm confident we can complement each other's breeding goals and work together for the benefit and betterment of Klee Kai's, their gene pool and their future, particularly in Australia. I agree getting a solid gene pool is vitally important, and there are challenges ahead, for me and all Klee Kai breeders, but I haven't jumped through the drawn-out regulatory hoops involved with importing a dog expecting any of it would be easy. Although council registration is honestly not one of the areas I expected to be difficult.

Argh, and we were so close to choosing a house over that wat too . Brimbank have an online system to register dogs via, once you get to the third or so page it requires you to upload proof of either desexing, Dogs Vic membership or health exemption. Maybe I should have tried to going in and hope they didn't ask, but that doesn't sit well with me. I also think it could lead to more people not registering their dogs, if this is truly meant to ensure ALL breeders take part in the system to provide traceability, ensure the wellbeing and increase the future health of pets, then why leave it possible for ANY breeder to have no legal way of taking part even if they want to. I think other states have come to that conclusion too, I noticed in NSW both the MBDA and AAPDB are recognised by legislation, and SA appear to have created their own body/organisation for those who don't fit with the ANKC. My options seem to be: - Going through a slow process of addressing the Council via email (Which today they informed me was the only way to communicate with anyone who might possibly be able to help, I'll do this, but would be more encouraged if I could talk on the phone first and felt like it could actually lead somewhere. - Keep trying to get in touch with the person who appears to be in charge of the State Government legislation, and hope they don't also require the slow process of email, with no prior indication as to whether they will even take my situation into consideration. My issue with the above two options - she'll probably be here before a resolution is reached by either of those paths - then what, she is too old to be classified under the 3 months leniency period and If I have no success I'd have to move while harbouring an unregistered dog. Otherwise, I could: - Not bother with the above and start looking to move so I'm living in a different area before she arrives (moving might not even be possible). - Register her at a relatives address, I'd love to be able to go to some dog social events and training, and walk her in parks and down the street without worrying about fines or the risk of seizure and forcing me to desex her before giving her back. - Find a Vet who can help, but unless there is a legitimate health-related reason/argument/scientific basis for not desexing I'm not comfortable asking a Vet to do that. - Convince one of the other organisations to apply for applicable organisation status, (or Convince ANKC to make a new category for registration of un-desexed un-recognized breeds, but I think this is highly unlikely). I'm really hoping for this to be successful, I hate to think of others having to go through this, and that could happen unless State law is altered or another organisation is recognised by the state. I have options, but none of them are ideal, most will likely take more time than I have, and none of them guarantee a positive outcome. I'd love to hear any stories of/from people who've interacted with Brimbank and had positive outcomes, (or even negative ones). Might give me some Idea what my chances are, so far they have been very nice, polite and helpful, but in a kind of unhelpful way if that makes sense.

Whoops! if you read this sorry Steve.

Thank you I did just try messaging him but when I pressed send it says he can't receive messages.

I had a look last night and they aren't acknowledged by the FCI just the CKC, UKC, NKC, APRI, ACR I've been researching Vets for a while and have come up with two or three choices. As when it is time to breed we'll be importing semen from the USA there's the Vet who works with Sires on Ice, The Monash Vet, or Wyndham Vet, There was also the Craigieburn Animal Hospital but it looks like they only work with Greyhounds when it comes to reproduction. I've managed to find info on the person up the chain of the legislation who might be able to help, but there was no answer when I called today so I'll try again next week. I've emailed and tried calling the MDBA, but no answer in either case yet.

Thank you all for the responses, mingaling, unfortunately, I no longer live in SA - should probably update my profile whoops. It is interesting to know it looks like with their inclusion of the dog and cat management board they may be succeeding where Victoria (specifically my council under powers given to it by the state) has failed to include options other than Dogs Vic. Also thanks for the info about MBDA(MDBA?) I googled them and also found another organisation the aapdb, I've emailed both to see if they have applied or plan to apply for "applicable organisation" status. Thistle the dog, I'm in Brimbank, though perhaps not for much longer if this can't be resolved. They allow any desexed dog, however, to have a non-desexed dog registered with them you must both be a member of an "applicable organisation" and have the dog registered with that organisation, or have a Vet willing to say desexing her would cause irreversible health issues. I'll be contacting the council again soon, and hopefully sort this out. The relevant legislation states the council has to power to make exemptions etc. http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/LTObject_Store/ltobjst10.nsf/DDE300B846EED9C7CA257616000A3571/6864F3B9893D65E2CA25826B007B8B9D/$FILE/94-81aa074 authorised.pdf

Sorry, I confused "recognised organisation" with "applicable organisation" The VIC government explains: "What are the requirements for an Applicable Organisation? The primary conditions of Applicable Organisation status is that the organisation has a code of conduct/ethics that meets or exceeds the minimum standards required by Victorian legislation and that is binding on its members. In the case of breeders and rearers, the minimum standard is the Code. A second condition of Applicable Organisation status is that the organisation enforces their code of conduct/ethics, and provides sufficient communication and education with their members to ensure that they can comply with relevant Victorian legislation. On 31 May 2017, Dogs Victoria’s status as an Applicable Organisation was extended for a further two years." So I need to convince the council to make an exception, or find a organisation willing to become an "applicable organisation" similar to ANKC in that I can be a member, register a dog with them and meets the above requirements. But different in that they acknowledge/allow membership for rare breeds and don't necessarily need to be internationally recognised as the keepers of the pedigree as the UKC does that job.

Thank you for the replies, I really hope the council will be willing to make an exception, I understand the need for responsible breeding, but I find it discriminatory that the law is formed around such limited options to be considered and prove to be an ethical breeder. Just because I love a breed not recognized by the ANKC I'm essentially automatically assumed to be irresponsible, and given no legal pathway to prove otherwise. Does anyone know why Dogs Victoria is the ONLY "recognised organisation" for dogs? I see multiple options listed for cats. Does anyone know if there are any other organisations in the process of becoming a "recognised organisation"? Cheers

She's an Alaskan Klee Kai, but I don't have any pictures I can post yet.

I will try the council again, they did sound pretty final in what they had to say. The law is quite unfair and seems to have no room for leniency. I've spent the night reading council legislation and state laws, and ANKC regulations. I can't really find a way around it without finding a way for an exception to be made by ANKC the Council or State.

Hi there, I'm not sure if this is the right board for this so please let me know if I need to move it. We're near the end of the process importing a rare breed from the US. It is recognised by the UKC not the AKC, nor is it recognised by the ANKC. We've moved council areas during this very long process, and now weeks before we get to bring our new fur baby home we discover our local council won't allow us to register an un-desexed dog with them unless it's registered with the ANKC/Dogs Victoria. I've called the council who suggested calling Dogs Victoria, who suggested contacting the ANKC (Which they said can only be done in writing and could take a couple of YEARS), or to contact the council again, which I did. The person I spoke with at the council went to speak with someone higher up but the only option they could offer me was to have a Vet declare that desexing the dog would be irreversibly detrimental to her health, I know there is some research which suggests desexing can increase the likelihood of some conditions but I don't know if it's taken seriously or how to find Vet who would be willing to write an exemption based on it. Can anyone offer any suggestions? or do I have to move house again?... Thank you in advance for any input