bulldogz4eva

Incorrect, the only faults In regards to eye color In a well bred APBT are both eyes not matching In color and blue eyes, Light eyes In Am Staffs however yes Is a fault That's interesting. Although it is does seem unusual to accept any colour except blue. Why bother. One in all in. And why not blue eyes for a blue dog?. Makes more sense than yellow. Doesn't it? Without predujice, the UKC standard really is a pakapoo ticket for this breed in any case. How can a genuine pure breed defining standard have a weight differential ranging from 35 to 60 pounds for the same breed & expected to be taken seriously? But wait, there's more, dogs that exceed that maximum are not to be penalised unless they are exceptionally heavily built or excessively rangy. So there is really no limit. Any amount of different breeds could be fitted under that description. (Maybe they should take a leaf from the Poodle breed & have miniatures, toys & standards ) Could this possibly be the reason the breed isn't considered to be a pure breed by other pure breed registries? It's certainly is a problem for other bull breeds have to contend with when dubious breed identications come to the fore. From smaller than a Staffordshire Bull Terrier to bigger than a Bull Mastiff, yet all the same breed? That really is ridiculous. Only becuase the show crowd want everything to fit inside their neat little box.

You only have to look at AST breeders pages to see that they're also breeding to their own opinions and what they take from the standard. Why would anyone want to get into dog breeding only to breed to a standard that they must conform to, it's against human nature not to try and improve something (it can still fit the standards), even judges vary their opinions on their take of the breed standards. I've lost count of how many people are breeding for "solid muscle" "big bone mass" "rare blue", these people are registered breeders flaunting their wares as they think this is what people want to buy and this is the direction they feel the breed should go... these breeders aren't 20 year plus veterans they've got their rego and prefix and that's it. If you know what you're looking for you can spot the decent breeders a mile away, usually by their dogs, but sadly many owners of the AST nowadays don't have the feintest idea. LMAO.Expect to be flamed coz the truth hurts.

Depends on your point of view &/or your interpretion/knowledge, of the breed(s) history. Those who consider the breeds to be one & the same would dispute there are no pure bred blue & white ''APBT''s in Australia (see the magazine cover posted above ) It would be distinct possiblity that the only red nose ASTs in the U.S.A would only be found in the areas where the APBT was banned. Interchangeable breeds. Depending on the situation. Very conveniment. Just playing devils advocate you understand. Blah blah blah blah blah

I have seen red nose amstaffs here.Sold off as pet quality as they are non standard.

Actually, they do. Though because the kennel clubs that hold the standards don't operate in full here. The Kennel Clubs that recognize the APBT and hold a standard for the breed are the United Kennel Club (UKC) & the American Dog Breeders Association (ADBA). If you go to www.google.ca (not www.google."com" - that's a whole other post) and look it up, you should be able to find each respective kennel club and their standards for the dogs The APBT has never, ever been recognised as a pure breed by the AKC. Not even way back when. This rebuff of the ''breed'' was the catalyst for C.C.Bennet to raise the U.K.C. Specifically to register his own dog. Bennets Ring. The U.K.C is a privately owned commercial enterprise. & a very profitable one at that. No dog, solely registered with the U.K.C, is recognised as a pure breed by any affiliated pure breed registery in world. The major difference between the American Staffordshire Terrier & the American Pitbull Terrier, besides the name, is one has been faithfully bred to a registered standard, the other to an opinion. One is a genuine APBT, the other isn't. However, the U.K.C now no longer recognises AKC registered AST's as APBT's. Bit of payback there me thinks. So people holding cc registered papers for their A.S.T can now feel a little more secure for the future of their breed. APBT owners? your struggle still has way to go. Thanks for the history lesson Dougie blah blah blah blah blah

Without a long lengthy explanation.There are no blue pitbulls in this country.There are in the US but thats another story in itself.There are blue amstaffs and unpapered dogs and dogs that may have been crossed but no 'purebred' blue pits.

Depends on what you want to know about "differences"? Do you want to know which one(s) is legal, which one isn't? About differences in temperaments, or physically? I think the bottom line is that it depends on what country you're from as far as the "differences" of the breed. In Australia, Amstaffs and APBT mustMustMUST (OMG) MUUUUUST be different dogs. In North America - it really doesn't matter (And look, I was involved in the Amstaff show world back in Canada - so I do have an idea) the reason for this? Well, from what I can tell, when the poop started to hit the fan a couple of things happened - and please, anyone who had their thumb on the pulse of it all at the time is free to correct me. 1) In Australia there is no large scale Kennel Club (like the UKC, or the ADBA) that could stand up for the right of APBT here in Aussieland. And I daresay the N. American based UKC and ADBA didn't support their registered breeders down here in lobbying against the laws, 2) In the ANKC, some Amstaff and Eng Staffy groups/breeders made a point to segregate them from the rest of the bully breed world. Why? Well, it's easier to pretend that you're not part of "those people" than to actually look at the bigger picture and realize what effects one affects us all. ReadySetGo said it best "deals were made". A great example of this is the most recent garbage that came from news.com.au/the Sydney Herald in an article titled "Dog Attacks on Children on the Rise".. Now the article stated the fact that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was NSW's #1 biting dog. And someone (I think he even title himself as a Staffy Bull Breeder) quipped on the comments that "well those stats are skewed because everyone who owns a Bully breed calls them "Staffys" and that a lot of those people who own "Staffys" are just registering them as that to keep them safe from the laws." And it's quite likely true, but that's the hole the ANKC people have dug for themselves - they've turned the internationally renowned Nanny Dog into a statistical nightmare, and that's such a shame. Deals continue to this day - when Kylie Chivers challenged the GCCC for her dog and the Supreme Court declared Amstaffs = APBT, APBT = Amstaff. A lot of Amstaff people started to panic, next thing you know there's an announcement at the Brisbane Royal Show (I think, I probably have the locale wrong) that "‘(3) Also, the breed American pit bull terrier does not include a dog of the breed American Staffordshire terrier.’" (Part 3 Amendment of Animal Management (Cats and Dogs) Act 2008, Pgs 12 and 13) - It goes to show the deals are still on - to anyone from the outside, the fact that this announcement was made AT an ANKC dog show... well, you get the idea. It just smacks of the back door dealings happening. Oooook, so now onto the physical differences. I think there's a heap of good threads in here but I think one internet pages sums it up quite nicely. From www.pbrc.net " ”Pit bull” is NOT a breed. It's a generic term often used to describe all dogs with similar traits and characteristics known to the public as "pit bulls." When we use the term “pit bull” here, it should be understood to encompass American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers. Remember: in most cases, we usually know little about the background of rescue dogs. Some may be gamebred APBTs (from fighting lines), some may be registered show dogs, some may be American Staffordshire Terriers, some may look like APBTs but might be mixed with other breeds, etc. Since there is no way to know for sure unless you have the pedigree of the dog, we recommend following the advice offered by PBRC for any pit-bull-type dog (most of our guidelines are, at any rate, simply basic rules of dog ownership). See PBRC's FAQ for more information. " http://www.pbrc.net/breedinfo.html And here's a link to FAQ - which does an absolutely brilliant job of describing how the lines are muddied in N. America (which ultimately has muddied the lines down here). And look, the ANKC and the AKC are sister organizations/kennel body's. So keep that in mind - http://www.pbrc.net/faq.html Still with me? So as pbrc.net pointed out, some dogs are dual registered - here's an example, of a kennel with dogs I know personally: http://www.yorkkennels.com/baronandfaithsale.html So, whoever took those dogs on, would be able to import them legally into Australia, breed with them, show them and legally sell puppies to dance around an ANKC show ring - unless of course they produced a chocolate/red-nosed pup, because the ANKC doesn't allow chocolate or red nosed Amstaffs into the ring - the N. American AKC does it's just harder to Ch. title those dogs.. And then take the dogs back home and show them as APBT. Now, this doesn't mean ALL Amstaffs are registered ABPT, and it sure doesn't mean that ALL APBT's are registered Amstaffs. But as I was explaining to someone at a recent Delta Society workshop "It just depends on the lines. Some lines are more like brother and sister, others are more like cousins"... ultimately though, they are the same TYPE of dog and I'll go into to this more later. The bottom line - in the 1800 & 1900's they were the exact same dog, then kennel clubs got a hold of them... and we've molded them to suit our purposes, Amstaff groups didn't want dogs with more than 80% white? Well, they either went back to be registered as APBT or the Bull Terrier people got a hold of them, changed the shape of their heads and therefore created a new "breed". Weighed less than 15 kgs, and was a short little chunky butt (Even if his parents were pit fighters, the dog just happened to be a litter runt)? He'll fit into a SBT standard. And take note, in the 1970's the AKC re-opened its stud books to APBT's to widen up the gene pool... and yes, 30+ years (and god knows how many generations in that time) between then and now is a long time, but not that long when you look at the looooong and incredible history of these types of dogs. Heck, even Boston Terriers come from the same family... The immortal Stubby has been claimed by all of those breed fancier groups. Scroll down to halfway on the PBRC Breed Info page link I sent you (dog in goggles), what would most of us call that dog??? Hmmmm? It would be an interesting poll! And up until earlier this year (or perhaps 2009?), you could proverbially walk your AKC pedigreed Amstaff into an ADBA/UKC office and be able to register him as an APBT. It was just the way it worked in N. America Now you see where the lines are muddied. And it's SUCH a hotly contested debate. And honestly, I know Amstaff people in Canada that would swear to you until they were blue in the face that Amstaffs are NOT APBT - and they have the pedigree to back it up... unless of course one of their puppy buyers took the dog to an ADBA office and then registered the dog as an APBT... and I know APBT breeders that want "nothing to do with those watered-down Fabio's". But frankly, I don't think it really matters all that much. If my pedigreed retired show male ended up in a shelter in Los Angeles or Vancouver. They'd classify him as a "pit bull"... why? Well, the likelihood of me losing him with his pedigree papers tied around his neck is pretty un-freaking-likely. If he ever landed in a shelter down here - they'd slap a "pit bull" title on him as well, why? He has cropped ears, unlike some of the Amstaff lines I've seen here he's got a very N. American style head - long in the nose with a broad full muzzle, a pronounced stop... and you bet your bum he's to standard, his parents have won titles in Europe, Canada, U.S. and S. America. The shelter I worked at back in Canada called all dogs they took in of that type Amstaffs, why? When they advertised the dogs for adoption, it made them more appealing to families and less appealing to scumbags. And guess what, we do it down here in Australia as well, and I would know; I worked at an RPSCA in NSW. I've seen female come in CAR registered as APBT (owner didn't claim, so she legally had to be held for 14 days) - But guess what, no one bothered to inform council that she whelped a litter within a couple of days of coming in. 6 weeks later this RPSCA had 6 "Staffy crosses" up for adoption. I've seen a 22 point check list done on a dog (such a farce, I know)... a shelter favourite. He's now "an Amstaff". This dog, http://pbrc.net/webapp/pics/fullsize/202_32923.jpg?30626 is currently up for adoption in New York as an APBT/Amstaff, and I'd put really good money that a shelter down here would call her Staffy X. Go back to the website, www.pbrc.net and look at a chunk of the dogs available for adoption, how many of them would be called "Staffy" or "Staffy X's" down here? How many of them would you see walking down the street? I know I've seen lots of them. http://pbrc.net/webapp/pics/fullsize/4922_18744.jpg?73088 - Described as a "pit bull mix"... he is 80+ lbs (~37 kgs) after all http://www.respect-a-bull.com/adoptabledogs.htm - All such brilliant dogs, look at the puppies... what would they have been called down here? Oh and what about "Buster"? And god, the amount of times I've seen "Blue" down here in vet clinics I work at. And for some stupid reason, they're getting so freakishly popular. Or go to Yagoona's Adopt-A-Pet webpage, there's a STUNNING "Alaskan Malamute X Bullmastiff", among many, many other American Staffy X's.. Which good on the RSPCA for calling them Amstaff, I like how they're using the name. Not letting the power only be used by a certain group of people. Even in Brisbane/QLD the RSPCA is starting to use the term Amstaffs for some of their adoptable dogs (including a handsome cream coloured male *gasp!*)... but wait, the RPSCA isn't an ANKC approved body... how can they be Amstaff?!?!?!?! (Please note the sarcasm in that) To quote Shakespeare, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet". Though honestly, after spending time in Australia, I'm half tempted to change the word "rose" to "flaming pile of poo” and sweet into... well, I think you get the idea. The government, kennels clubs, ET all honestly thought that if you changed a name, all the problems with the name would go away. And this is where the problem really is. It hasn't changed the problems. Fatal dog attacks have not gone away, more bites than ever are being reported each year that passes, you have Staffordshire Bull Terriers leading the bite statistics. I watched a proper Eng Staffy brought into the RSPCA to be surrendered - why? At the dog beach earlier that day he got into a dog fight. He grabbed, held and shook the other dog. Was he an APBT? My aforementioned male pedigreed Amstaff does the same thing if he gets into a fight - does that automatically make him an American Pit Bull Terrier? At the Perth Royal Show, I heard some of the male handlers talk about how even though it wasn't appropriate, they loved see how one of the males got on top of the carrier of another Amstaff and the two dogs had a snarf-fest, only stopping because the people got in there and intervened.. Something about "nice to see they still have their original purpose in them". My female rescue, Autumn spent the first four years of her life in doggie daycare, and is a social dream... does that make her an Amstaff, or because she does the Staffy frog sprawl & crawl when you scratch her butt and chortles, an Eng Staffy? But wait, I know the kennel her mom came from... they don't have Eng Staffys. Because you keep calling them "Staffys" Australia has forgotten one of the most important part of the dogs' name (and it's in ALL the breeds, APBT, SBT, AST) - Terrier. They are a large Terrier, and all need to be supervised, trained, and managed appropriately. For Christssake, most people can't manage the 5 kg Jack Russell Terrier, why does anyone think it's easier to handle a 15 or even 30 kg Terrier? And then there's also the fact that in N. America, many of the dog fight busts are churning out... guess what? These funny little gremlins that could only be called Staffordshire Bull Terriers and crosses there of. The ground breaking case of Michael Vick showed us that even AKC registered Staffordshire Bull Terrier are landing in the ring. Why? Well again, it could be they're all the same type of dog. But I've heard/seen (and tend to believe) that it has more to to do with size. Many APBT and some Amstaffs are becoming VERY large (especially on the West Coast, and yes, within the standard) - they're breeding back to the originals to produce an "ideal" dog (no more than about 40 lbs.. or ~17 kgs). I love showing this pic http://www.badrap.org/rescue/index.html to Aussies; it makes their heads spin. All dogs in that large picture were taken from the Michael Vick bust - but do you know how many times I've heard "but, that look like X..." I hope that's given you perspective, or an idea of just how messed up it is and I apologize I went so long. It really honestly depends on the breeder, and how well that person knows his line and his lines history. But your all breeds judge was vaguely right, they are the same dog (or maybe more specifically, type.. or hell, it's just as likely one is a subset of the other – think Dachshund and Wire-Haired Dachshund), some just have more exclusive invitations to certain events than others. And I can say as a Purebred, Pedigreed Amstaff owner that I feel like the person with the designer dress who has an “in” to the party because my best friend is boinking the host... Meanwhile my twin sister feels left out because she doesn’t have that same best friend or fancy dress... and I know that feeling too because I own a rescued Amstaff/Bully Breed/godknowswhat . But as “twin sisters” our characteristics, mannerisms and looks are so much that same that anyone could tell that we’re from the same family. Nice post.Spot on.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-au...3-1226014301946 A PERTH man who broke into a pound and stole his own dog after it was put on death row for a savage attack has been jailed for eight months. Rocco Arfuso pleaded guilty to aggravated burglary and stealing on August 4 last year and appeared for sentencing at Perth Magistrates Court today. Chief Magistrate Steven Heath previously told Arfuso the difference between him going to jail or not was whether the dog, a Japanese akita called Kunza, was returned. In a remarkable twist to the tale, defence lawyer Mark Andrews told the court today that City of Stirling rangers had seized what they thought was the fugitive animal but it turned out to be a case of mistaken identity. The innocent pooch remains in custody at the council’s pound while Kunza remains at large. The court heard that the vet meant to euthanise Kunza stated it was the wrong canine because it had a different personality and markings, was older and was lighter. “The real Kunza was a very large dog weighing some 50 to 60 kilos,” Mr Andrews said. “It never wagged its tail and always stood on guard.” Mr Andrews said the innocent dog was completely the opposite, with a happy disposition and always wagging its tail. “The real Kunza remains outstanding,” he said. After Mr Heath passed sentence, Arfuso maintained that it was his dog that had been seized and that he had never been asked to identify the animal. Kunza was declared a dangerous dog in April after it mauled an elderly man’s hand and bit off one of his son’s fingers when he tried to help his father during the attack in Karrinyup. Arfuso and two other men cut a hole in the fence and forced open a kennel door using a crowbar. The incident was captured on CCTV. The dog was taken a day before it was due to be put down. Mr Andrews said Arfuso built a “close relationship” with the dog after his fiancé died of an asthma attack and that a psychological report deemed him as impulsive, suicidal and unable to cope with poor reasoning ability. He said his personality was plagued with anxiety and resentment. “The dog helped lift a veil of depression,” Mr Andrews told the court. He said the motivating factor in the crime was to prevent the Kunza being euthanised and that the great escape was an “amateurish way to recover the animal”. “He doesn’t think like you or I,” Mr Andrews told the magistrate. “I would urge you to reconsider a jail term as a last resort for the purposes of sentence to enable him to obtain rehabilitative intervention.” Mr Heath said he accepted Arfuso’s “strong” relationship with his dog “given the tragic circumstances of your fiancés death”. But Mr Heath said he deliberately embarked on a burglary and had done nothing to help recover the dog since it was taken while he was “on a path to self destruction”. The City of Stirling said rangers seized the wrong animal after a “tip off” from the public. A spokesman said the animal would undergo a behavioural assessment and would likely be adopted.

What if like myself wehn my dog was bitten they rolled up to the vet without their wallet on them becuase they forgot it becuase they were in such a hurry?Are you going to waste time going home to get it and let the dog die?

Now you are talking about 2 different things.Paying later and being asked to pay upfront.I would expect to pay at the end of treatment/consult.Not before. Yes but how do they know you will pay at the end of the consult? We are talking about anti-venom here which is a considerable expense to the clinic. I guess becuase I go to the same vet and have done for 15 years and have never had a bad debt in my life anywhere.I do understand the considerable cost of antivenin but I dont like the inference that I am not going to pay.I think it is a bit cold.I have never come across it here but I am not living in inner Sydney so maybe I am a little naive.i guess there are people who would go from one vet to another and never pay just as they do with many other businesses. My vet would never turn anyone away regardless.there is a myriad of cats and other small dogs running around his surgery,some without limbs becuase they have been run over and someone has brought them in.He has taken them in and nursed them back to health and kept them.He is someone that truly cares for animals and I will be sad when he retires.

I find it a bit disgusting actually but I dont have that much time for a lot of vets.Last time I took a dog in for snake bite it was also a sunday afternoon.they told me it may not work etc...They never asked me for any payment up front.this is not a vet I use or would use again as they caused my dogs death but thats another story.They charged me $900 and I paid it within the week in full. My sister worked for a vet they also never asked for upfront payment and always let people pay it off.They also got there antivenine from the hospital when it was out of date so it cost them very little.These days its all about the cash.What they pay for stuff and what they tell you it costs them are usually 2 different things. Out of date antivenom from the hospitals is as rare as hens teeth, and if we were to rely upon it for all the snake bite victims we see each year 99% wouldn't get treatment. If anyone wants to kick and scream about people being asked for dollars up front then spit in the direction of the grubs that never pay their bills. I have never been asked for payment up front and my vet would never refuse any animal treatment regardless.Maybe I have just been spolied or maybe it is just there are less grubs in this state so we dont have a problem.I can sympathise with vets not geting paid but if they didnt overcharge people so much maybe they wouldnt have as many problems.

I can tell you from experience it will buy you a few hours.My dog was bitten on the lip twice by a 6 to 7 foot dugite (brown snake).Vet said becuase of capillaries this is the worst place to get bitten.I saw her get bitten and injected her intravenously straight away and then an hour later.It was 2 to 3 hours by the time I got a vet and got to the surgery.I am talking about a 60 pound dog,so there is no way a dog that size bitten where it was could have survived that long without it.Vet administered antivenine and dog was looking good but the inexpereinced vet gave her an atropin injection straight away and stopped her heart so I lost my best mate and still had to pay $900.All he could say as I carried her out the door was are you going to pay now or later.He is very lucky he still has his front teeth.

Now you are talking about 2 different things.Paying later and being asked to pay upfront.I would expect to pay at the end of treatment/consult.Not before.

Should have happened a long time ago and can only be a good thing.

Exactly.I am sure the woman knows exactly what type of dog it was and if it was of good temperament,happy and loved and contained in its backyard what is the harm.I would be more concerned about problem dogs with problem owners that wont contain them regardless of the breed. I am with you if all she can do is stab this person in the back and create some scremongering I wouldnt have much faith in her and I guess its alright if someone elses loving pet is taken away and PTS as long as they doesnt affect her puppy sales.JEEEEZ

I find it a bit disgusting actually but I dont have that much time for a lot of vets.Last time I took a dog in for snake bite it was also a sunday afternoon.they told me it may not work etc...They never asked me for any payment up front.this is not a vet I use or would use again as they caused my dogs death but thats another story.They charged me $900 and I paid it within the week in full. My sister worked for a vet they also never asked for upfront payment and always let people pay it off.They also got there antivenine from the hospital when it was out of date so it cost them very little.These days its all about the cash.What they pay for stuff and what they tell you it costs them are usually 2 different things.

Congratualions to them and thankfully its finally over.Long time for the poor dog,hopefully he can spend the rest of his life with his family in peace.

I expect it is unusual and would hope it would be but I think it goes on a bit more than people want to believe. There is a x bred litter advertised on the net at the moment and the registered breeder of said litter has a picture of her ANKC registered dog as the parent of said litter.Not too smart I would think and if I can pick it up I am sure there are many others that have something to do with that breed that could also.

The main reason for that is the same world over.People fall in love with the look of a dog and the romantic stories without truly understanding what they are all about.They want something they arent prepared for and there are usually consequences becuase of it.Not the dogs fault the peoples fault.This is also why breeds get dumbed down becuase people want the look of a dog but dont really want or need the temp so they breed a pale imitation of the real thing.If you arent in the position to have one and arent prepared then dont get one.Simple.

I like different things too but that doesnt mean I should have them.Lets just say you were able to get one here.Theoretically speaking of course.if you are in a small suburban back yard.Do you think a breeder would sell you one?Their temperamnet is prbably vastly differnt to anything you may have experienced.They guard their space with serious intent and a dog that grows to 90kg and isnt under control wont be stopped.once upon a time I wanted one too and maybe one day I will but there are many dogs I would like to own first and some are already here.Why dont you look at a Boerboel.Another big dog that will guard and is already here .

Exactly.You wont find a Crso here that would be half as good as an average Presa.JMHO Tell your friend to look for something else there are no Presa's here full stop and no remnants worth speaking about.

It has come to my attention that Barry Rochford has been released from prison.I have yet to verify this but it comes from a good source so I trust it is true.He was due for release on March 1st this year but must have got his last 6 month sentence cut in half and only served 3 of it.I am posting this for members to be aware he is out again and anyone gifting or selling dogs in Northern Victoria and beyond should be wary.

lol yeah because we all walk around with guns and cattle prods..... the question was asked "What would you do in a similar situatiuon and I answered.Thats me.the gun bit was said tongue in cheek or maybe not.Where I live if dogs are on your property and attackng something that belongs to me they take a dirt nap.Simple. Cattle prods i have found over the years are the most effective thing in breaking up a dog fight.You can take that anyway you like and no we dont all walk around with them and neither do I.I have one near my back door for such occasions.We dont all own the same dogs now do we.I can tell you from experience when youi have dogs hell bent on causing harm to each other and they are dogs that have been bred for it all of the techniiques mentioned here do not work.Choking dogs out is more effective if you can get somethin into their collar and do it with out a strange dog turning on you and biting you.Tieing dogs out and breaking them off works as well if you have a breaking stick but we dont all carry one do we.I have broken up my fair share and can tell you with 100% certainty that sticking you r finger up their bum,using them as whirly bird,walking them backwards does nothing but aggitate them.You can beat them with a brick,some of them would rather die than let go.That is just a sad fact of reality.

If owners of 'working breeds' think that their dogs will be any match for a fit, aroused dog of fighting ancestry then they are clearly deluded. "Smaller" dogs have lower centres of gravity and better proximity to the areas that disable a dog - namely the legs. Clearly some 'working dog' owners need to pull their heads out of the sand and realise that their dogs aren't designed for fighting other dogs. It's alarming the amount of working dog owners who have high expectations of their dog's ability to defend against other dogs. Yes and better they realise that 'work' doesnt equate to the same thing.Unless they were bred for it when it comes to dog on dog they will come up short.

Water does nothing to dogs that are intent on fighting.All it does is make them wet and harder to grab hold of.