Jed

Maybe one of them is my husband, Boronia? Don't buy one of those imported ones they carry nasty diseases like rabies, and you pay for them, customs wont let them in, and you have wasted your dough.

Oh, noice dogs, Boronia. Lovely lead. Boronia, are those men all your husbands? Perhaps you should get the particoloured model from Deshonko. I am sure it could eat keep those husbands in line for you. And you already have the lead, you just need the engine block. Might not have to feed it for 6 months. Think of the savings.

anniek, I am so sorry, due to company regulations, we can't swap, or take trade ins.

Deshonko and Shonkypaws have pleasure in announcing in conjuction, ready for Valentines Day, the Boopboopadoodle for those seeking a mainstream pet. Quite rare and difficult to breed, be the envy of your neighbours, the Rolls Royce of dogs. Your perfect family pet. Absolutely no grooming Fully trained Comes with papers Hybrid vinegar Vets certificate Numbered certificate - after 50,000 there will be no more. Watch your investment grow gold plate on points Hand painted by Dali No desexing required Hermaphrodites only - two dogs for the price of one. Only for the connoisuer Unable to attack - only one tooth per dog. Two colours, Latte, or Cappucino The latte one is Shonkypaws Sonia Susan Cyril The Cappucino one is Shonkypaws Alfred Paul Hilary Produced in our purpose built facility. Beats those purebreds hands down, several dogs all rolled into one, two sexes in one. Valentines Day Special - Swarvarky chrystal nose studs, diamonte collar and matching lead. Painted toenails, guaranteed to last for 7 years. Yes, folks, the paint outlasts the dog!! Comes with matching bow and red rose stapled to tooth. Be quick before they all go. Imagine the look of delight on the face of your valentine.

I didn't go to the seminar, so I don't have anything useful to say. I do have a couple of observations on matters discussed here. KismetKat Very few joined the association prior to the COE being posted. I think even fewer will join now. Most of those people aren't interested in COE's or assocations. There is no benefit for them. I could be wrong. It will be interesting to see what the future brings. I have no idea why Kate S believes that registered breeders should sell her dogs so she can improve her breeding stock. To most registered breeders, she, and those like her, are akin to the antiChrist, and the notion of her improving her pups via quality registered dogs equates registered breeders denegrating their stock, which they have spent years breeding to the high standard they have. And Cavalier breeders, in particular, would not only eat their own vomit in preference, but would probably euth their dogs before they'd let someone use them to breed cross breds, particularly someone breeding in volume. For a registered breeder, buying a quality cavalier from a recognized kennel a huge effort, as breeders are so wary of people like her taking the dogs and keeping them in kennels and breeding the guts out of them. And some of them have been lied to, and found their little bitch, that they so proudly bred, and thought they'd sold to be a well loved pet in a family home was living down at the kennels, producing crossbreds. People like her must buy from pet shops, or puppy farms, or by lying their heads off to breeders. And that isn't going to change any time soon. Completely different set of values and morals. It is lack of knowledge which sees them saying that there is a divide between pet and show dogs, and the marketplace needs purpose bred "pets". At least 90% of registered breeders expect to, and do, sell their pups to pet homes. Check out the DOL breeders pages for puppy ads. Nearly every ad is geared to the pet market, and nearly every ad encourages purchase by pet owners. There are several very successful show kennels who are very reluctant to sell show dogs - they prefer their pups to go to pet homes. Most of the people on this board do too. We are breeding PETS - and yes, we probably do show them, but if the dog has the conformation and temperament of the standard, it should make an excellent pet. And they do. Re the NSW regulations - it is much easier to keep concrete hygenic, and there is less chance of worms proliferating on concrete. If you keep dogs on grass, you never eradicate the worms. When the regulations were formulated, it is obvious that the psychological, mental and physical needs of the dogs were not factored into the equation. The people framing the legislation went for the most obvious thing - "perceived" health and hygeine - without considering the other things. One size laws don't fit all, and until legislators realise that there is more to breeding dogs than having hygenic conditions, the lives of breeding dogs can never be optumum - due to the regulations Re 7 litters: back to back litters: breeding till 7. Some dogs/breeds could have 7 litters, and could have litters till 7, 8 or 9. I did a little study some years ago by observing 30 bitches which were bred back to back. It's not a scientific study, it was just for my education. Some bitches, after 4 back to back litters, missed having one or two seasons. Some bitches, on their 4th, 5th and subsequent litters, had fewer pups per litter (from 8 - 11 down to 3 - 4). From these later litters, the pups to my eye, were not as well grown and most were a bit "weedy" looking. I would have loved to follow these pups through the years, but that was not possible. Some bitches, after 4 or 5 litters, looked very old - some years older than their actual age. Bitches were labs, GR and a few staffies and a few miniature poodles. Dogs were well fed on premium food, all health needs were attended to, and vet. care was given if necessary. The bitches themselves were reasonable quality, but not top quality dogs. Whether this influenced the outcomes, I have no idea, but I think perhaps it did. I decided, after that, that a couple of back to back matings were ok, with the bitch having 12 months or so off before the next one, or only whelping annually. It also worked out more profitable to mate annually, but they were only my "projected" figures. Conversely, if bitches are mated later (ie, 3 years or older) there seem to be more avenues for problems, and if bitches are left for 18 months to 2 years between matings, there seem to be difficult whelpings, and unthrifty pups, as well as the bitches not going into pup as readily. However, it is generally accepted that young bitches have better pups, and this may have been one of the causes of the problems I saw. I also projected figures on continous back to back, and annual matings, and there was likely to be more profit in annual matings. All things being equal. Smaller litter sizes could have been due to a number of other influences though. So, on balance, I don't think all back to back matings, and 7 litters is best practice. To do a proper study, you would need a control group, with related bitches of the same breed, not the randoms I followed. But that's the best I could do. One factor which I noticed regarding the seminar, although I could be wrong, was that several people who presented seemed to have little knowledge of pedigree dogs, or the ethos of pedigree dog breeders. Spikes Puppy - One show is one man's opinion on the day. Any breeder who is using that as a yardstick for selecting breeding dogs is on a hiding to nowhere. 100 shows are more of a yardstick. In the example you cited - the dog of incorrect temperament being strung up and beating a dog of better temperament. The judge may have decided that although the temperament was off, the conformation of the dog was good enough for it to win. Another judge may have come in with a different result. And I've been told by judges I respect that they do get an idea of temperament. Some don't know, as some don't know the breeds they are judging, but a lot do. I wouldn' t select a dog solely on show results and I don't think anyone else would either. For our best breeders,breeding is an art. If breeders want to use COI or EBV as a tool, they should be able to - they can do it now, but it should not be forced on breeders by people who have a different set of standards, and a different ethos, and don't understand purebred dogs. From interactions with breeders, and dog owners, and my own dogs, I don't think purebred dogs have any big overall problems. There may be small problems in some breeds, and in some dogs, but overall I still believe that purebred dogs are better for health. Steve - 630,000 pups bred annually? How was that arrived at?

Dogs NSW is asking for comments from members and clubs on the Bateson report. http://www.dogsnsw.org.au/independant-inquiry Email responses to [email protected] or write to PO Box 632, St Marys NSW 1790.

Casower, we sell them already traioed. Throw the tin of Chum out the back door, Flaarfy follows it, slam the door. He;ll let you know when he wants to come back in. Might be a good idea to put a cover over the goldfish pond. Do you have a Sherman tank manhole cover lying about the place? Otherwise, 10 or 12 layers of Crimsafe should do it, reinforced with a couple of steel girders. We haven't been close enough to declaw one. I am sure your mother would really enjoy rustic look floors, very fashionable today, very NOW

Paper, of course they come with papers Deshonko and Shonkypaws are both property registered with our local agricultural boards, and the babies themselves have papers galore. In facf, you can choose your own papers. No extra charge. kchogan - and how thrilled the kids will be to find they each have a little skoodle for easter. You can have the 3 in the photos, two girls and a boy from the same litter. The children will be able to experience the magic of new life, and learn all about the birds and the bees first hand. What an unforgettable learning experience. Don't worry if the kids get sick of them, just take 'em down to the park, they'll be right. I'm sure the kids wont though, they will be the envy of their friends with such unique and wonderful pets. All their friends will want one too, and when your litters arrive, you will be able to flog them off to the suckers for lots of lolly, double your investment allow them to go to carefully selected homes. Talk to us about franchising.

KismetKat Oogh, I digress. Tell me more. I'm really curious. 'Specially "any long nosed dog will rouse me". Shouldn't happen. Should be polite and respectful in public, and only roused when a threat is perceived. Are these males or females? What level obedience are they at? And, um what are the owners like?. Boxers will very happily take advantage of someone who is not their leader. Being smarter than the dog is a pre-requisite to boxer ownership, in my opinion. Boxers, particularly the adult males, can be very territorial - and that may include "roused" but not to any great degree, or enough to be a problem, because they have had socialisation and training. I am honestly interested. As someone who strives very hard to breed to the standard, the character of the boxer is very important. Are these off standard boxers, or are they untrained boxers, doing as they please? You'll have to come to the boxer enclave at shows - boxers lying and sitting everywhere, not a cross word - but with other boxers, I guess. Not a cross word to other dogs passing by, or those owners of GSD or dalmations (or my own longer nosed dogs of other breeds who share the boxer enclave) who are lured into the boxer enclave by the oysters kilpatrick, or the vodka martinis and champagne. Or the smutty jokes My own live happily with other breeds, and have lived with an assortment of rescues, mostly long nosed without difficulty.

Yet the "forprofit" cross-breeders are selecting for temperament over looks, while purebreed breeders may well put looks first. Breeders weight temperament. Have you been to a dog show? A boxer which is not confident about being handled by the judge can go last, a cocker which is not demonstrating "merry" when he is gaiting, ditto, Cavaliers which are unhappy about the noise, the people, and the other dogs aren't going to win much on a regular basis, so breeders are encouraged to breed temperament TO the standard. If the standard says "aloof" that's how the judge wants the dogs to be. there's many a dog with top conformation which wasn't shown because his temperament didn't match his conformation. He might have been a good dog, and a nice pet, but he wasn't good enough in the temperament stakes for the ring. "For profit" crossbreeders in the main couldn't care less about temperament, the dogs are down in the sheds, they don't have to live with them, they sell to pet shops or via air, and never have to talk to owners about temperament. There is no marker for temperament in a cross bred. additionally, they have a hell of a time buying a registered purebred, so they buy from other puppy farms or pet shops. The people who are breeding the dogs they use for breeding arent worried about temperament either. Half those timid cringing puppy farm dogs are like that because they don't have the correct temperament in the first place. Yep, the puppy farm didn't help, but the temperament was wrong to begin with. Additionally, "for profit" breeders often have NFI what the temperament of the breed ought to be. All they are interested in is a uterus with hair on the outside, or testicles (with or without hair) in a dog which wont actually take your hand off when you pat him. When you chuck him his food once a day, hose out his living quarters occasionally, you don't really know what his temperament actually IS. So how can you breed for something which is an unknown? Woofnhoof Yes, if the breeder knew of a line of mild sibes, and some are. If someone had told you all about sibes before you bought, you may not have bought - or you may have been better prepared. Additonally, if you remove the drive, you will probably remove a few other things which make sibes unique. The drive and temperament has been developed over hundreds of years - if you remove that, what do you have? A different dog. The reason sibes are in the pound is because people bought them without knowing what they were getting, particularly in the way of fencing. Because they bought the cosmetics, not the personality, they were disappointed. Someone should have educated them. But pf only want the money, not the responsibility, so no one talked to them about the responsibilities involved. All dogs, all breeds, including cross breeds have positives and negatives. The art to being happy with your breed is to choose one which has more positives FOR YOU. And that will mean research. Dog's aren't disposable, people need to choose wisely, there are heaps of breeds out there all different, it is simply a matter of choosing, and doing to research. Boxers can jump or climb any fence under about 2.5m, they also jump all over people, knock the kids over, tample the baby, lick your forehead on the run, jump into the village preacher's lap when licking him, yet few of them are dumped. Because the majority are bred by registered breeders, or byb with some experience, and the buyer knows he needs good fencing, and good training. He is prepared for his responsibiity. When as many are bred by pf as sibes are, the dumpage rate will increase in direct proportion, because the buyer who thought "they looked nice" will easily be able to buy one, which he can't do now. And if you had gone to a decent breeder, chances are they would have discussed the purchase of the pup with you, and you would have had second thoughts, or the breeder would have advised against the purchase, or you would have been prepared. The majority of owners of sibes from registered breeders are happy with them. They accept the temperament, and work with it or around it. Although YOU see some problems, there are thousands of sibe owners who are totally happy with their dog. I don't think any breeder would consider changing the temperament of an entire breed for ONE disgruntled puppy farm purchaser of a sibe. As far as I am aware, all registered breeders of sibes sell as many as they breed. I find your posts terribly contradictary. On one hand, you expect all dogs to be tested in their traditional role. If sibes were tested, and only those who passed tests were used for breeding, it would be likely that the dogs would be even more prey driven, and likely to climb out more often, because only the high drive dogs which could place in sledding events would be used for breeding. You can't have it both ways.

Keep those credit card numbers and cash coming in, folks, here at Shonkypaws, production is at full throttle, as much as our facilities can bear. Your mum or your granny will just love one of these little sociopaths fluffies. Don't worry too much about the Chum either folks, Deshonko is very ethical. I just recommend opening the gate every night, your mum wont have to spend anything on food. Don't worry about the ACO either. Mum will be so pleased to save so much on food bills. Healthy, SBT? Of course they're healthy. Tell you what, if yours isn't living when you open the crate, we'll give you a 10% refund. Couldn't say fairer than that. Course, you need to air freight it back to us for verification. That's a good deal, Mothers' Day only, because mothers deserve a lovely present, and they well just feel so safe with one of these around. I love the blue ones, myself. Parti-blues, so nice, fit in with the decor in the retirement village so well. Now, to Easter, of course we have that covered. This is a different number, small enough for the tiniest child, no guarding instinct, and the best thing of all, we have removed the olefactory gene, so they have no sense of smell, so of course, they wont be wandering far. How good is that?? And absolutely guaranteed not to bark. If you have difficult neighbours, this is the model for you. So forget those boring bunnies and cliqued chickens, get the kids a skunkoodle for Easter. Look at this cute litter, how could you resist? How excited will the kids be when they find this little number on the end of their bed?

Breeder should ascertain that the buyer is aware of, and understands the breed pre purchase. I believe that 90% of purebred dogs in the pound were not bred by registered breeders, who generally take more care in the selection of homes. If you are a breeder with 6 pups which you bred, whelped, and raised, you have more motivation to find them the "right" lifetime home, then if you are air freighting to people who paid by credit card, and all they asked was "how much", or if you are a 17 year old working in a pet shop with sales targets to achieve. Kismet Kat - we had this discussion in the protection thread. Show an Afghan a gazelle (or a rabbit on the run) and he'll show you "fierce", I'll bet. Show a boxer a burglar, and he'll show you "guard" I don't believe the majority of people want endogenous dogs - they all want some of the traits which they are buying breed A or B for. Good owners will discount the things which may be problematic about a breed because they want the benefits they see in that breed. There are people who do want a dog who don't wee, mess, bark or dig. I don't think they would be happy with Eurodog either. Exactly, and they are the people who will probably dump any dog they buy. There are breeds who bark less than others, quite a few, and people can get one of them - but the answer is training, companionship and socialisation. If people did those things, barking would not be a problem with the majority of dogs, from the majority of breeds. I wouldn't want to breed Eurodog so that people could neglect him. Not that I would want to breed Eurodog at all. It's flawed science at it's worst.

You can teach most dogs to leave them. She will also get used to going to the toilet whilst on lead. It may just take a little while. One of my dogs was untrainable about toads, she is obsessed. After many mouth hosings, she has learned to pick them up by a back leg - she carries them to her bed to torment at leisure *sigh*. I spent the first couple of years after I moved here spraying every toad I saw with neat Pine O Clean from a spray bottle. They die quickly, and I don't have to put them in the freezer. If they are sprayed, they don't seem as attractive to the dogs either. From going out nightly, and collecting a 9 litre bucket full, I now only find the odd one. This method is not approvef by the politically correct, but that's how it goes here. And there are fewer toxic pests in the world.

Most of the rawhide chews come from China. I always thought they were made from beef hide etc,but who knows? Nothing to stop the manufacturer using anything he likes, really. I wont buy the ones made in China because I don't think they are hygenically prepared (ie, no one cares, so what if a few dogs in another country die?) and the melamine warnings worried me, although there would be no melamine in chews!! Pigs ears are often produced locally - it's worth asking. My local pet shop was getting them from someone in my area who was doing the preparation themselves. I buy liver treats from the butcher, they have a customer who makes them. There are Aust companies who do chews, but you need to source them. The link PF gave looks ok.

Edit that. I didn't realise that the dogs had been surrendered. Negates what I was going to post

The raid was a good thing. This person lost her ANKC membership some time ago. The dogs I saw on TV were in good condition, but the coated ones were terribly matted, and obviously didn't receive enough care. The pups and mothers were in good condition too. I didn't think the poodle was too bad - he was very good about being clipped by strangers in a strange place, and I don't think his behaviour in the pound was too bad either. Stress from being with strange people and in a strange place could have accounted for his behaviour. As to the dogs euthed - who knows? The cavs I saw were a bit timorous - but I thought about mine.... If someone comes, they jump all over them, they are friendly when out, but if a stranger grabbed one and put it in a crate in a strange car - it would be frightened, and do the eyeroll and crouch. If they went to the pound, they would be terrified. Some lines are not as brave as others either. One of my girls would freak out, although she is friendly and kissy, and climbs on visitors for cuddles, she is not at all brave. But who knows, it was a short segment on a TV show. I think I will simply say "well done" to the RSPCA. And I don't know that the dogs were simply randomly breeding and whelping. My males and females run together, and they certainly aren't randomly breeding. They are locked up when in season, but if you came here, you would see them all together. Boy dogs aren't wild animals, they should be allowed to interact with the girls, that's how they do best. And I don't think those bitches would have been whelping in the middle of all those dogs, because one of the other dogs would have killed the pups. I was a bit taken aback about that, but decided it was "tv talk". It seems to me that this is another person who started off ok (as far as I know, she used to show successfully) and the longer it went, the more out of control it got. Just mindlessly breeding. I can never understand why these puppy farmers do not use some of the profits to build decent facilities, but they rarely seem to. Just greed at the expense of the poor little dogs. Many people are swayed by greed. I wonder if they don't notice that the care of the dogs is going downhill, it happens gradually. They keep 20 with no problems, they make some $$, they up to 40, it's all good, more $$, then they get to 60, and it begins to go downhill gradually, and they don't notice, it all seems normal to them. Don't think I am excusing it, I'm not, but I always wonder how things could get to that stage, with the owners thinking it is ok. Maybe they don't care. I know a puppy farmer. The facilites are as good as you'd find. Dogs live in groups of 4 - 6, they have decent size sheds as kennels, they have about 1/2 acre fenced run around each shed. They have runs of a couple of acres with trees, bushes etc where they are let out every day. Some of the dogs go out onto the property every day for an off lead run. I suppose, in the course of a week, every dog would have been allowed a few hours running loose on the property. Dogs are properly clipped off, and properly fed. Bitches are whelped and kept in the house. A couple of dogs might be taken out every time the car goes anywhere. The farm has been turned over to the production of puppies, but care and thought, and money, have been put into it. I'm not condoning it, because I don't think dogs are agricultural animals, but it doesn't have to be the same as the ones shown on TV. Yet the majority seem to be like the ones shown on TV. It seems to me rather a shame that over the years, so many registered breeders opted out, and left room for the pf to grow and proliferate. There was a time when registered breeders with 5, 8 or 10 dogs supplied all the market. If registered breeders of the same ilk had increased in proportion to demand, these wretched puppy farms would never have got off the ground. Maybe for mongrel crosses, I don't know. Ellz *nods* Some of the dogs from this one have gone to new, knowledgable homes. (Read *stolen* ) They have all settled in well, and are happy. It took time and work with some - particularly those who had never had a hand on them - but they are all ok. But they went to people with the knowledge, committment and time to make a difference. I see a couple quite often, and they are fine.

I think the cavs could be good to have if there was as burglary - they'd be underfoot, helping, and the burglars would probably fall over them, or the cavs would jump in the car, and there wouldn't be room for the loot!! They're all a bit different, my cuz has a boy I bred, and it is duty to watch at night while she sleeps, and he barks if he hears anything, he escorts her to the door if the bell rings, and he does his loud serious bark, so people think he is B I G.Before he arrived, her large pot plants - all expensive big ones in ceramic pots - used to be stolen, probably to sell at the markets. Since he arrived, no one has touched them. Mostly, all the majority of us need is an alert woofer. It's nice to know that our alert woofer will "guard" without being an aggressive nuisance, or a dangerous dog. Here's my smiley teenager

CRAP! I am sorry Crisovar, I don't see it that way and more to the point, people here are talking about dogs barking and acting scary frightening away unsavory characters which many dogs will do successfully I agree, but that is not stepping up and defending for real where the dog will take someone down which is a big difference. Nobody has actually given us an example of their dog going for the bite, only a perception that it would???. The only untrained dogs that I have ever known to attack in defence for real and maintain their nerve when pressured with a history of taking down offenders were guard dogs that would bite anyone other than the hand that feeds them, totally aggressive out of control and completely unsuitable for a family pet. Wrong sort of dogs. OK. All of my boxers over the years, have stepped up to the plate when they were asked, and they have done whatever was necessary to negate the threat. Not all were asked. 3 have stepped up and "defended for real" which included doing whatever was required. One went outside and attacked a (serious, not casual) prowler - ran outside, ran around the house, bit, and continued to bite with the prowler running, he fell over the fence because the dog was biting him, the boxer jumped it, and bit him and snarled, he got up, and ran into the bush, with the dog running with him, biting and snarling. I have no proof that the dog actually bit him, but there was blood on the ground in the morning, and he was screaming,so I guess the dog bit him, and he didn't simply break a finger nail? Man appeared in the hallway of the house one afternoon, I wandered out of my bedroom - the dog followed - dog pushed past me, advanced on the man, growling and snarling - he backed up - she backed him against the wall of the kitchen and held him there. I discovered it was someone we knew vaguely - told the dog it was ok, dog backed off. He was gonna get bitten if I hadn't recognized him. Neighbour was visiting at night, stealing horse feed. Dog went out and chased him. Didn't bite, but would have if he had stopped or challenged her. She roared up to him, and he got a terrible fright, he'd only seen her in "friend" mode. People were doing bad things at the front of my property in the middle of the night. I went down, with the gun, and the dog, holding the collar. They came into view, I shouted "oi, whaddiadoing?" and the dog pulled away, and rushed them, one jumped onto the flat top tonner, shouting "watch out, it's one of them pitbulls" -- the dog jumped up behind him, he raised his arm at her, still holding the chainsaw, and she grabbed him by the wrist. By that time I'd got closer, raised the gun, told the dog to come. We had a little discussion and they left. It wasn't the gun which made them docile, it was the dog. And I would never have gone there without the dog. They have all done what Molly did. To the degree necessary My teenager has the courage and nerve to stand her ground. I am not sure about her mother, maybe - and my baby girl - absolutely. I can tell from the way she pervs out the window at night that she is muttering "oh send me a prowler, do". Nerve and courage. All of the dogs above, and some not mentioned were trustworthy with everyone, including kids. That's as much as I want for "protection". I don't much care what a trainer would expect. Mine did what I would expect, which is negate the threat, and use as much force as necessary to do that. And I don't expect them to use more force than required. If my teenager with her feet on the gate had jumped the gate and bitten someone, that would have been totally unsatisfactory. Not what was wanted. I need them to use SUFFICIENT force. I don't need them to be savage, aggressive out of control mongrels, biting anyone and everyone. I don't want, or expect them to bite anyone in the normal course of events. I expect them to use their intelligence to work out what they should be doing. Some of you must think the rest of us have no knowledge or experience with dogs to make some of the remarks you do. None of you know much about boxers, or some of the other guard breeds, and I don't know that you could pick a dog which would guard. It's not ferocity or aggression, it is courage and intelligence which makes this type of dog good for the job. And the right genes. Nekhbet Boxers haven't changed, they could still do schutzhund, if someone could be bothered training them, and I think they do it in Europe, particularly Germany. People here like them for their nice natures and affability, and everyone who's had a couple knows they are protective, but no one makes a big deal out of it. And some of the ones you have seen you probably could trust with your property, except they have never seen any need to SHOW you what they can do, so you didn't recognize them. If you saw my teenager out somewhere, you'd think what a lovely friendly dog she is, how waggy and smiley. No good for guard. If you were climbing in the window at midnight, you'd see the other side of her. The men in my paddock thought the same thing. They patted her in the morning, and she was so friendly and waggy ----- but they were doing what they should have been. They weren't allowed into the garden ,so she stopped them. They really are a quiet achiever. The confidence and lack of fear that makes them jump all over everyone with friendship is the same confidence and lack of fear that allows them to step up to the plate. In my experience, they will do just as much as needed. And my lines are quite "common" - and well known. Mostly English. And a yank. Luckily there are few nasty ones. And that's how it should be, a nasty one is very nasty indeed. Before I got married, I had a boxer and a lot of friends. Friends would often arrive at home, and if I wasn't there, hang around until I turned up. They might also turn up with a couple of horses, and their swag. The boxer had them all graded. If they had stayed before, she helped them unload the horses, showed them the spare room, and where the beer was, and I'd arrive to find half drunk friends curled up on the couch with the dog (and the beer gone) If they had visited before, but not stayed, they were allowed on the property, and into the lounge, but not allowed into the bedrooms, or to the beer. And I'd find them sitting on the couch, with the dog sitting in front of them. If they had been on the property, but not inside, she wouldn't allow them inside. Door to door sellers, religiious persons blah blah didn't even get in the gate!! Don't think the security guards were much good at picking dogs, but I suppose they would look scary in most situations, but I think most of them would have legged it if it got up close and personal. Aidan No I wouldn't expect my dogs to do security work - and I certainly wouldn't expect it without training - but we are talking about protective pets here. Although having seen the security dogs I mentioned earlier, I think I would choose one of mine in preference.

Nekhbet, I think You are still missing the point. I hear what you are saying, and I can't comment on other guard dog breeds, because I don't know them, or the bloodlines well enough to know what they will or will not do. Quite a few dogs of various breeds are protective. Collies are, I know, and some other breeds. My Cocker Spaniel will growl or bite to defend. He is brave. Two louts on the beach set their big black dog onto him once - "get that poofy cocker" - so I let him off leash, and he rushed forward, met the other dog head on, bowled him onto his back, and stood over him, growling. Someone he didn't know walked into the house, and he went forward, growling and barking. Someone put his hand in the car, and the dog nipped him on the finger. That's not a guard dog, that's a dog with good protective instincts. There is a huge difference. In the normal course of events, he would protect me. I would never expect him to stand and defend. If someone hit him, and he ran off, I wouldn't be disappointed. He is not a guarding breed, he is just a dog with good protective instincts trying to do the right thing for his beloved master. About 8 years ago, I came upon 2 wild dogs - bigger than dingoes - who were going to attack me. The cocker, who was mosying around behind me, spotted them and went into attack mode. It looked as if they would attack him too, but when the boxer, who was further behind still, went into attack mode, they legged it. Which was handy, as I was pretty frightened. But that was dog - stuff, the dog who attacks first has the prime position. I can't speak of any other guarding breed, but when the chips were down, I would expect a boxer to be there, and to continue to do whatever needed to be done, without flinching, or backing off. Guard dogs are bred for that purpose. And that's all they were bred for. I've had a couple of boxers who would herd chooks (which is not easy) but I wouldn't enter them in any trials because that's not their job. I would think that 90% of decently bred registered boxers would step up to the plate, without fear and defend as much as was required. And I think the same applies to other guarding breeds. But you might own one it's whole life and never see that side of it. I've had enough experience over the years to know that they do step up. If someone hit one, I would not expect it to back down. The teenager at the gate was not backing down - the further forward the men came, the more serious she became. The warning became a challenge. If they'd touched the gate, she would have bitten them, if they'd threatened her, she would have bitten them. And that's how it should be. All sorts of people think they want a trained protection dog, which they wouldnt be able to train or handle (and many have dogs like this - hand grenades waiting for the pin to be pulled). Most people would be better off with a decently bred PUREBRED dog from a guarding breed. Which they simply train to be obedient, that's all that's required, the dog's instincts take over if required. If you think you are a trainer, and you train a guarding breed to be "protective" without much idea what you are doing, chances are you are going to have an agressive dog. Which is not required in society. That's why we have purebreds. We hope our dogs will never be in that situation, but if it's me or the dog, it's going to be the dog. And yes, most people will back off from a serious looking dog - the cocker backs most of them off because most people are wary of dogs. He'd have no hope against anyone serious. Last year I had quite a bit to do with "trained security dogs" - up close and personal. From 10, I think there was one I would trust to defend, the others were simply rabid barkers, or fear barkers. And they were supposed to be trained. I think some of the security people chose the wrong dog to begin with. I wonder whether people can differentiate between a good guard dog, and a fear barker? And that's basically what you were saying. People who want a dog for personal protection should investigate the guard breeds. Boxers are trained and used as police dogs in Europe. I want mine to guard, but I don't want to train one to guard - I think they do just fine on instinct .... s they should, and I don't have to worry about having a dog which is a handful. And with the 1% of dog savvy people with serious intent - the dog is probably going to be hurt. But the dog needs to have good nerve. You can't train nerve, they have it or not. And it's nerve which allows them to do their job, not aggression or nastiness. Boxer history is full of true tales of boxers which were killed or injured, doing what they were bred for. A stud dog was exported to India, stood a season, lived in the house, which was burgled, he defended his home, but he was stabbled and died doing it. As a breeder, my job is to ensure that I continue to breed the required character and temperament into the breed. I think the boxer has been fortunate as a breed - he has never enjoyed enormous popularity as some other breeds have due to movies, or TV shows - he has his devotees - but there has never been hundreds of inexperienced people wanting to breed to cash in on the popularity, so breeding over the years has been steady. And the boxers today are not as "sharp" as the ones of 30 years ago, and that's not a bad thing, but they will still do the right thing, while maintaining their family dog and good old homey companion status. I know, when I go to work, and leave the boxer in the yard, that no one will be breaking in, and I also know the dog wont be randomly biting people. That'll do me.

Ch 9 news tonight. 7 dog attacks a day in SE Qld. Most by staffordshire bull terriers and crosses, followed by ACD and kelpie crosses. 8 (for the year) attacks by pitbulls. Didn't mention whether they were pure or cross. No more information than that, except numbers by council areas, and a list of breeds which attacked, too fast for me to write down

Breeds were bred for different purposes. Some dogs, of any breed, are naturally protective. The companion guard breeds should step up to the plate, that's what they were bred for. Good boxers have good nerves. That same thing which makes them happy and confident - is what makes them good in a tight situation. People, including owners, don't realise that their happy go lucky, waggy, trustworthy friend who jumps all over everyone is just as happy and confident to be a protector, if he perceives the need. An inherently good natured breed, they can often seem friendly and silly, and you never have to worry about them rushing around biting people, but they wont hesitate for an instant if they see a problem. The benefit of a purebred dog is that he was bred for a purpose - never lose sight of that with a purebred dog. He will normally do what his genes dictate because that's what he was bred for.

Purebred dogs. I like the predictability, and the fact they are similar. I know what I like, and what I can live with. By having purebred, I am guaranteed that I will be happy with my choice, and it's looks, temperament and personality will please me, because it's known. I have had 3 x breds, and although I loved them, I found them not as satisfactory as the purebred dogs. Temperament and health issues. Like purebred cats too, for the same reason. However, have had both moggies and pure over the years. The difference between x bred dogs and x bred cats is that a cat is a cat, and although there is some variety, the variety is not endless, as it is when you consider the range of dogs, temperament, coats etc between Chihuahua and Irish Wolfhound. With a moggie, you are usually saving a life, and it's free or really cheap, (or someone chucked it over the fence, and you couldn't wish it onto someone else) so your expectations are not so high. I am very partial to Himalyans (sp), Birmans and Rag Dolls, but I seem to have ended up with more moggies, because they are dumped on me. I have two middleaged torti girls at the moment. They will probably be the last. My two favourite cats were a himmy and a ginger moggie. We had more on the property. Birds (2) are from a breeder, have had canaries, always from a breeder, and an Alexandrine, also from a breeder. Rats, mice and guinea pigs - usually from the kids down the road I don't think ducks come in cross bred, or am I just a duck snob?? Mallards and Cayugas. Coz they are pretty. And Pekins, coz you have to have them. And they have huge personalities. We had a drake who would pull at your clothes with his beak for attention and loved to be stroked and picked up. He'd come if called, even if there was no food in the offing. Chooks - hmm, I like to rescue worn out battery hens - fancy having to live your whole life in a stinking little cage. What I like most about battery hens is when you get them home, and put them on the ground, they sit there for ages, gazing at the sky in awe, the grass, and everything else for quite a long time before gingerly trying out this whole new world. And in a week, they are behaving like real chooks. And I hate to see trucks full of them going to the abbatoirs at only 12 or 18 months old. Why not bring them home, and give them years of good chook-life? And they repay by laying heaps of eggs, and running around eating grubs and things in return. I've had some roosters of one breed or another, but roosters being what they are, before long all the chickens are mongrels~! ;) Although I did have some Indian Game Fowl for a while, and they bred on. And I can't help myself, I was breeding some rather spiffy little bantams with very feathery legs, and having a great deal of pleasure from crossing them for colours and feathers. And I bred some terribly handsome big roosters, people used to come and take them, and show them, and they did very well, but they were accidents rather than purpose bred. Goats - bit of each, Saanan, feral, and Nubian. Sheep - yep, had wool, must have been a sheep. Liked to sleep on the bed!! And the pig - Lennie - hmm, he fell off a truck, so I don't know what he was .. but not purebred, Landrace x I think. He was a nice pig.

Hi SnF, I'm not going to add any feeding advice, I'd only repeat what someone else has said already. However, I am a bit confuzzled about this ...................... How does being inbred not make them SWF? How are they inbred? Re the bones - there is no need to cut the meat from the bones .. unless you are feeding them bones after you have cut the meat off to eat yourself. If the bones are just "normal" butcher type bones, they don't have heaps of meat on them, so leave it. Meat with bones gives you a good C:Ph ratio, which is important.

Sorry, disagree. None of my boxers failed to step up to the plate when it was needed. None of them backed down. They were happy to bite if required. And they were not trained as "guard dogs" nor were they anything other than family pets. But they were purebred dogs, bred to the standard, as Molly obviously is. I don't know how "dog savvy" the people they faced were,but the boxer won. How many people are "dog savvy" enough in the normal day to day activities? Not many. What do you think a "dog savvy" person could do to deflect the dog? One of mine was hit and that simply made her more determined, and perhaps angry, and she was seriously biting. One backed up a security guard (with a dog) one night. I have no idea how "dog savvy: he was. Not dog savvy enough, apparently!! A boxer breeder is aware of the standard, and should be working to produce a good companion guard dog, as Miss Molly's dog is, and all of mine are, and have been. And that means they will step up. A boxer which wont step up is a poor example, imho. And one which is nasty is a bad example too. The standard says "never treacherous". One of the reasons this breed is not a star in obedience is because they make their own decisions. They will be obedient, but they think things through and if they perceive the need, they will act. Standard says There were 6 or so men working in my paddock. This is allowed, so the teenager was lying under a tree, keeping an eye on them. Not a sound. Until they decided they wanted to come into the garden. They got as far as the gate, and found a 30kg boxer standing with her front feet on the top of the gate, barking and growling at them. They decided not to proceed, and called me instead. I have no idea what the outcome would have been if they had tried to come in, but no one in his right mind would try to push past a 30kg dog with its feet on the gate barking and snarling at them. As soon as I went out, she got down and went back to friendly mode, but she was still watching. She knew they were allowed in the paddock, but she had no instructions to allow them into the yard, I wasn't there to greet them as friends, so they weren't coming in. As soon as I was welcoming, they were her friends too. They kept an eye on her, but she was all friendly as soon as I said it was ok. That's all most of us need, Nekhbet. Very few people will tangle with a dog. And I have found that any of mine asked to do more than bark were quite prepared for that. Despite never having done it before, or having received any training. Congratulations to Molly for doing what she should. You are right to be proud. Hope you feel safer now, MyMolly? They are a handy dog to have around, I always feel safe with mine - sleep with the windows open, don't lock the house. But it's always a bit of a surprise when the "guard" side of them comes to the fore!! It's a good breed, mine were always trustworthy with the kids and their friends, but would defend the family.

And you know this how? JRT are working terriers. They vocalise. It's a breed thing. Every reputable breeder knows this. Some lines/dogs bark more than others. It is the nature of the beast. Thats how they were bred for generations, that's how they are. They can be trained out of it, but not in the short term Two pups with one toy are going to bark. Most breeds are going to bark in that situation. It's a baby thing. Working terriers are going to bark more. Fact of life. Crating them all day will not be very good for them, and I suspect they will jump or climb out of the puppy pen. Maybe fence off an area of the yard, and put each of them on one side of the fence, so they have company, but not competition. No matter if you give them 2 of everything, they will both want the same one. I think separation when you are out is the go. They are babes and that's how babes are, training and maturity will help.