Jed

To get 2 years jail, I don't think your car accident was a simple accident/ This woman accidentally killed 2 dogs. Puniahment probably shouldn't be the same. Plenty on this forum have accidentally killed their dogs; They normally receive support but that doesn't give the dogs their lives back. Not seeking help should not be punished, as not doing research to find what kills dogs should not be punished.

Steve Pet shops source 70 - 90% of their stock from puppy farms. I don't care who said what and who is ducking and weaving, that is fact. The puppies are presented in good condition, and eminently purchasable, apart from the ones with parvo, as those regularly supplied by a recently prosecuted Qld pf. The pups dont look llke the parents, you know, it takes a while to get dogs into that despicable condition. Just to clarify - my definition of a puppy farm is an agricultural establishment, were dogs are kept as agricultural animals, in sheds or paddocks,with only sufficient human interaction to maintain life Steve I hope you disenfected your hands afterwards. That may be so, but the definition of a PF by the RSPCA is incorrect, and is intended to be be used to control registered breeders, not necessarily puppy farmers. Breeders will not lie down for that. BAN THE SALE OF PUPS IN PET SHOPS. IT IS POSSIBLE. IT CAN BE DONE ONE A STATE BASIS, ON WELFARE GROUNDS, AND NOT ON FAIRTRADING LAWS. There can be NO 'IMPROVEMENT" TO PUPPY FARMS. There can only be bans. For the sake of the dogs. voiceless and suffering horrible torture day after day The RSPCA has the means to inspect and remove dogs, councils have the right to make determinations in some areas Force them to do that. And I still think the rally was a good thing

Oakway Hmm, not always, as you know. And I am NOT having a go at you. I would never do that. Never None of these moves to licence/inspect/regulate/harrass/torment and annoy breeders will improve the lives of registered purebred dogs one iota. Steve (another thread) There are no hard stats. Why does federal law need to be changed to outlaw pets from pet shops? the opinion I got didn't think so. I don't give a rats what people breed, as long as the pups are as healthy as they can be, and the parents are kept as they should be kept. Which is NOT in those abortions called puppy farms. OodlieDoodlies which I think are a bit of a joke, and cross breds are all good with me. Not purebreds, but not their fault, and purebreds are not always what people want. 50 years in the future, if there are any dogs remaining - the citizens of the time will be appalled that the primitive people of the 20th and 21st century were so very backward that they thought it was satisfactory to keep such a social intelligent being as a dog, which had proved time and again, his worth to man, in squalid, disgusting conditions, where he suffered terribly and didn't develop his full potential. And that governments failed to take the necessary steps to free him from this cruelty. Unfortunately there are always too many people with different agendas involved in things of this type, and the altruistic ones who want only freedom and happiness for the dogs, are bulldozed, and the dogs continue to suffer. Why do I bother?

I wont be signing or supporting this petition. They wont stick to banning the sale of pups in pet shops, I believe, because they want to prevent registered breeders breeding. What's in this for registered breeders - and their dogs? developing a Breeders Code of Practice, and enact as mandatory legislation; introducing a compulsory licensing and regular monitoring of all companion animal breeding operations. Nothing except regulations which refer to and are relevant only to businesses making profits. Additionally, "compulsory licensing" and "regular monitoring" means more and more expense - for a hobby. Not to mention intrusive and expensive inspections of breeders homes. ANKC breeders already have a breeders code of practice, which seems to work quite well. Since I joined this board, 80% of the breeders who were on here, who were an amazing source of information and resources have stopped breeding, and have left this board. Most of them stopped breeding because of numpty regulations and costs. 80% is quite a lot of breeders, and it is the knowledge which is the greatest loss. New people do enter the hobby, but it takes years and years to acquire knowledge. Mita, UQ has no hope of holding out against Gov regulation. A lot of the vet students are pro animal rights, so there wont be any help for breeders from there.

Kate was the daughter of the Freedom family. Peter was the father. He was killed in an accident a few years ago. 2? 3? Her DOL name was Kate - something or other. It may have been before your time (although I woudn't have thought so) but she was a member here for some time Ask an older member, or ask Troy. I couldn't be bothered posting lies. The point was that although Kate was on this forum, and posted, I know little about Freedom - but I know quite a lot about some other puppy farms, and they are what I based my comments on. Edit Just remembered her DOL name - Staceycate I think. Probably been banned as every time she posted she got abused!

I don't know Freedom, although Kate used to post here. I believe they have virtually stopped breeding. However, I do know about some other puppy farms - not as big - and some shops. I wouldn't suggest it if it wouldn't work - ban the sales of pups in pet shops - nothing else, no other legislation which is what wrecked Clover Moore's bill.

Unfortunately, that is the price to be paid for being visible. I hope you have contacted the police, and have kept the letter and envelope. I don't always agree with what you say, but am happy to make any remarks on this public forum, and harbour no resentment, although I do think your good intention of improving the breed will help to obliterate the breed. Perhaps others feel more strongly than I do. Anyone who does not have the will to sign his name to correspondence is not worth worrying about, really.

Yes. No, costs are high, there is a sales budget, without pet shops, the budget would not be met. Does anyone have any idea how many pups are sold in pet shops during a week? Puppy farms only sell at the farm gate and via the net for "cream" sales - they might sell the litter for $300 each, but ask $1000 over the net. But they cannot move that number of pups over the net. They rely on the pups being visible in major shoppng centres with foot traffic of 50,000 or so Really? (Genuine question) Where does your knowledge come from? I've always been of the opinion that they can and do move hundreds over a period of time. I would guesstimate that a high profile puppy farm would sell a minimum of 150 dogs a month through the net on a good month. I think stopping the sale of puppies in pet shops would dampen the sales of some, but increase others. They rely on the pups being visible in major shoppng centres with foot traffic of 50,000 or so Absolutely Where does your knowledge come from? Trust me, it's true. When I am interested in things, I find out. :D I have no idea how many pf move via the net, but ALL the puppy farmers I know (and I know a few) rely on bulk sales to pet shops to make the budget balance. If 20 shops take 10 pups each, they only have to deal with 20 people, not 200, and the orders are regular and reliable, which "off farm" sales are not. Try stopping sales in pet shops - if the puppy farms don't go down, then bring in legislation.

Yes. No, costs are high, there is a sales budget, without pet shops, the budget would not be met. Does anyone have any idea how many pups are sold in pet shops during a week? Puppy farms only sell at the farm gate and via the net for "cream" sales - they might sell the litter for $300 each, but ask $1000 over the net. But they cannot move that number of pups over the net. They rely on the pups being visible in major shoppng centres with foot traffic of 50,000 or so

If puppies are sold to be companion pets from a place run like that, it's just as much a consumer issue. There's plenty of scientific evidence that puppies need to be hard-wired for bonding with humans via socialisation in critical early weeks. There's also evidence that the extent of socialisation of mother dogs has effects on puppies. A non-socialised mother does not provide the behavioral modelling which is also required. Places that leave out this critical factor, should be exposed as not preparing puppies to be what they're sold for. Pets, companion dogs alongside humans. (Which is why even the puppies bred to be military dogs are provided with the highest level of early & continuing socialisation.) So another group that should be involved in stamping out puppy-farming, should be the Australian Consumers' Association, also known as CHOICE. Who already set out some guidelines for people wanting to buy a companion puppy. Which maybe could be updated to take into account this critical issue. Next rally or public forum on banning puppy farming should invite along not only the relevant Kennel Association, but also CHOICE. Every pup from that farm is sold via a pet shop. Nice healthy looking pups. Shops love them. I wonder what problems the owners have with the pups as they grow up. Mita, I would never allow any of my dogs to live with anyone else. The point is that I love my dogs - and I really enjoy having pups. If they lived with others they would not be my dogs. It suits some breeders, but it doesn't suit others. There are a lot of nice male dogs in pet homes, as "back up" lines. As to the question of selling pups to pet shops - All these places rely on pet shops taking the pups. $300 + for quality pups is a good price, and the pups are not hanging around, nor are people coming to the property. Puppy farms rely on pet shops to buy pups. Pet shops are important. If you banned the sale of pups in shops, and farms were still thriving in 12 months, you could enact further legislation. KISS principle. Once pet shop sales were banned the heart would be ripped out of the puppy farm industry.

I thought the rally was a great idea. Puppy farms need to be stopped The ONLY way to stop them is to ban the sales of pups in pet shops. Nothing else is required. No convoluted legislation which requires hobby breeders to pay registration fees to some government department, and to pay an additional fee for an inspector to nosy about in their homes where their pups are bred I know someone who has 300 dogs. He has council approval, and DPI approval for his very nice kennels and runs. The kennels are immaculate, and the dogs are all in good health. So, the property would pass ANY inspection. The business is inspected annually by both council and DPI who are very happy. The bitches are bred every season. They are shot (which is humane as far as I know) when they cannot breed. If it is not humane and approved by the RSPCA, they would be euthanased by the vet. Who does his work at a minimum cost, because there are so many dogs. They do not receive any human attentiion apart from what is absolutely essential. Long haired breeds are clipped off to avoid grooming. They do not receive any socialisation, nor any affection. He breeds schnauzers, dacshunds, labradors, retrievers, cockers, cavaliers and poodles - and crosses thereof. Don't think all the puppy farms are those disgusting places on youtube - there are lots of puppy farms like the one above. And they are no better. The dogs are cleaner, that's all. IT'S STILL WRONG. LOBBY TO STOP THE SALE of PUPS IN PET SHOPS, NOT FOR MORE AND MORE UNWORKABLE LEGISLATION. THAT'S ALL YOU NEED TO DO. Government will be swayed by the influential pet shop industry. They will not want to pass such a simple bill, pet shops and franchises will fight against it.

Mita, the SDA is well accepted by AKC and ANKC breeders alike. These are their goals 1. Work to preserve the private ownership of sporting dogs and other domesticated animals, and defend the rights of sporting dog owners. 2. Turn back challenges to actions that would limit, restrict or end the use of sporting dogs for hunting. 3. Fight against restrictions that would eliminate field trials from public lands. 4. Protect kennel owners, dog breeders, professional trainers, and dog handlers from laws, policies and regulations that would drive them out of business Nothing there which is a problem. I personally don't want to hunt with dogs, but it's accepted in USA, so it's good with me. Unfortunately, there are very few people worldwide, speaking for breeders and exhibitors - a couple of breeder judges in the USA, a few breeders in the UK, Carmen Battaglia and John Yates, Not many to weigh up with those who are speaking against purebreeds and breeders. I predicted BSL and where it would go, I told you all what would happen with docking, so here's what will happen with breeders and dogs, 75% of the Very Best Breeders, who are mostly older, knowledgable and very experienced,will drop the baton. Their place will be taken by SOME inexperienced breeders. Some of those will stay in the fancy only about 3 years. Numbers of dogs bred will continue to fall,but at a greater rate than previously and currently. Those breeders who have ceased to breed will buy from their friends .. it's chaper, and in the future, it will be easier than breeding. The best breeders who remain will sell only to their friends and ex fellow breeders. Because they know the dogs will have good homes. I will be able to source a pup, from people I know. All their orders will come from people they know. "The publc" will not be able to purchase pups from these people. They will buy from the newly established breeders, and there will be so few pups, the wait will be very long. And then there will be government sanctioned puppy farms I have no idea why no one listens - I have been 100% correct so far, and blind Freddy can see I'll be correct this time too

Flinging your hands in the air and shouting "all dogs have problems because they are inbred" is a sweeping and erroneous statement. "Inbred" is incorrect, and a word used for emotive value Lots of dogs are LINEBRED. The best dogs Ive owned have been line bred. The dogs which carry excellent attributes to the future are line bred It doesn't matter what some bloke on TV, or Don Burke, or some researcher at UNSW said, that is a FACT whether the public likes it or not. Purebred dogs, per se are better. Fact

SM scans are between $2000 and $600. Unfortunately, the scan is not a definitive guarantee that the dog does not have SM. Not everyone can afford to have the scan done. It is not a guarantee that the dog does not have SM, will not develop SM, and will not throw SM. It is an indication that the dog has or does not have CM. Some dogs with CM are asymptomatic all their lives for SM. Some develop symptoms as they age. Having a scan done gives slightly more information, so breeders can make a decision about the breeding future of the animal. And the persons in charge of the research are less than truthful.

Maybe it's because there's not really much that sets the average registered breeder apart from BYB & puppy farmer. The only thing I see that sets them apart is a piece of paper that comes along with the dog. They'll just have egg on their face if they go along. What sets the registered breeder apart from a puppy farm is intent and attitude. These dictate how breeding and care of the dogs is undertaken. Anyone who visits a registered breeder (probably to buy a pup) can readily ascertain that. poodiful1 Permission and the act are not necessarily linked together. You have, by signing off on the articles of membership, broken an oath if you are a pf. Ethics make the difference.

Thanks Rommi & Lewis, I like them pretty wel; so I hope to have them back before too long - 2 -3 months, I guess BB, I think the accommodation is pretty full there. We are missing a few, obviously camped on less crowded accommodation. Here's Pheonix, snuggling with grandma. What a brave girl, she didn't say a word about that nasty burn. They only found out when the skin peeled off. She has another nasty one on her tail, although it is healed now. They wont give her any trouble. Boxers are such tough, stoic people My very unfavourite colour - plain brindle with very little white. Oh well. The brindle colour itself is ok at least. If she is half as good as her half sister Paris, or her sister Eva, I'll be happy.

Not sure about that one Huski, many who do not have SM are diagosed with it. A few have been diagnosed at 10 - 12 weeks which is impossible. I personally think the incidence of both SM and MVD is increasing due to puppy farms and registered BYB who haven't done their homework. I think, now there is more awareness of Sm, breeders will be careful. Unfortunately, the breeders who WOULD be careful don't breed any more.

Can you explain what you're talking about? 'Government piece of paper?' And what it's got to do with reponses to that rally? It has nothing to do with the rally, except before the anti docking legislaton was enacted, breeders were told that those who bred under the umbrella of a breed society, or bred "show" dogs would not be affected by the legislation Rspca wanted to bring in the legislation to prevent backyard breeders chopping off tails with carving knives when pups were 3 months old - but not to make any changes to what registered breeders did. As we know, that was incorrect. The main thrust of the legislation was registered breeders, the main people in line for prosecution were registered breeders, even though they banded in the neonatal period when no pain was felt. Bogans are still chopping tails off 8 weeks + old puppies, with total impunity. Please don't think I am dissing anyone's attendance at the rally. Puppy farms do need to be stopped. I was answering Mita's question. And for those of you sniping at breeders for not attending, where were you at BSL rallies? Where were your submissions in docking legislation? You wouldn't support those things because you didn't agree, so you can't expect breeders to support something they think will lead to the demise of registered breeders, and which they therefore disagree with.

No restriction at all. The 4 breeds banned from import are the problem. The pit bull particularly. "Bull breeds" per se are not in any trouble.

I think she was a cocker in the last reincarnation. Surely flatcoats couldn't be SO naughty Meant to say - a f ew people including my daughter have Dells, and say the after sales service is ok. One can only hope. Price was the decider. I'm not rolling in it, and I don't know how far it will have to go, so a few hundred is a LOT No idea when it will be on. It was to be the last show of the series - because it is a feel good one - but the show seems to have disappeared from TV - its been replaced here, so I have no idea. (Maybe better if it is never aired)

After all the animals are liberated, they will all be able to run free - poodles, chihuahuas, mastiffs, salukis, poms, - all running together, free from enslavement by man. They will be happy then, free from their demeaning lives as pets. Free from horrible procedures like nail clipping, hair trimming, tooth cleaning. Along the railways lines, over the freeways, into the rivers, catching and eating their own food. Hopefully, evolutiion will provide them with an opposable thumb before they all starve, so they can open tins of dog food. Shortstep Because they have been being told so for the past 20 years. It is only the toughies and the old fogies like me who can remember what it used to be like. We sit around together at night discussing the demise of the dog breeder and the purebred. "Breeding only for yourself" is a recent innovation. Once, breeders bred so people other than themselves could have show dogs and pets. They were called Successful Breeders, and they were the ones other breeders learned from. I knew, and can name quite a few of them. Some are legends in their breeds, having produced dogs which are in modern dogs pedigrees, or exported dogs. Now they would be puppy farmers. The downhill slide began with "urban myths", and continues. BSL, docking, RSPCA hounding of breeders, media reports and TV programs on the unhealthyness of purebred dogs .... all part of the death knell of purebred dogs. Everything John Yates and the SDA says is worth reading. Shame more people don't. Sad eh

I saw exactly the same thing with a very old pony breeder. Ponies, which had always been beautifully cared for, were literally starving to death. she was eating stale bread, mouldy fruitcake and drinking tea. She imagined she had fed the ponies. She believed they were all in marvellous condition. She told me that she was taking this mare to the royal. The mare was so poor she was leaning on a wall for support. No one in authority wanted to do anything. She did not accept that anything was wrong, or that the ponies (and the dogs) were suffering. If she hadn't been so well known, with well known ponies, they all may have starved to death without anyone knowing, but other breeders stepped in. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder can strike anyone given the right circumstances. I loathe anyone who would harm an animal, but there is a big difference between tying up a dog with hayband so it slowly starves to death, smashing a dog over the head with a rock, setting a kitten alight, or chopping up a pup with secatuers, and the case of this woman, as reported imho. Probably if I had the power, I would implement capital (or at least corporal) punishment for animal abusers because I find it so abhorrent that anyone would abuse something which trusted them, and which they were duty bound to do their best for - but I don't believe this woman was one. I think she was a victim too.

I would like to see the rally achieve only ONE thing. The banning of pups for sale in pet shops. If this was done, puppy farm sales would be slashed 50 - 80%. And they wouldn't be able to continue because there would not be enough income. Ban the export of pups to anyone other than registered breeders in other countries, and allow no more than 2 to be exported to the same person/same address in a 12 month period. Maybe that's too simple?? And really, we do have enough laws now for these cruel buggers to be stopped. I hope all you good folks who are putting in a day for the puppy farm dogs have a win

*nods*. All media outlets are guilty in all countries

UK Cavalier Club And the recommendation if the dog is over 2.5, CM is present, but the dog is asymptomatic, to breed to a dog of A status. Mita Exactly. And the only people who believe it Mita, are those who do more research than is presented to them on popular TV programs There is NO future for purebred dogs. Not because people don't want them - they do - but because breeders are walking away, and will continue to walk away. And the breeding of some breeds will be banned, for health reasons, as the ownership of pitbulls is banned for the safety of the public.