Jed

The petition is very emotive, and presents things in the worst possible light. The dogs used at UQ are those which were to be pts. They are taken to UQ, well handled, and cared for. The dogs are then anaethetised, and procedures performed on them. Knowing nothing from the time of anaesthesia, when they quietly fall asleep, they never awake. UQ students do work in the uni vet clinic, so they observe operations, and take part in post operative care of the animals. The fact that they do operations on live animals gives them more expertise than if they had not done so. Operating on dead animals, or limbs or trunks does not give them full experience These dogs are going to lose their lives no matter what. No dog is sent to UQ which has any other options. The options have all run out for these dogs. Let them go to UQ, be well treated, and anaethetised without fear, and out of the "killing" environment of the pound, and let them do a worthwhile thing for other dogs. Students treat the animals ethically and with respect and regard. Students who do not wish to participate are excused, by the way. I would prefer a vet who had actually performed an operation to operate on my dog, not one who had never raised a scalpel to a living creature. I would be the last person to ignore cruelty or vivesection, but there is no cruelty involved here, and many a vet has a pet dog which went through the program, and was awakened, because a student came to like him, and wanted to keep him. Not a lot - but some. I actually think this is more humane than going into the killing room at the pound to be euthansed. As far as I am aware, the "feeding trial research" is conducted at the Companion Animal Centre at the Uni, and involves comparisons between types of (normal) dog food. 2 dogs might be fed type A, 2 fed type B, condition noted, weights taken. Not really such hard work for the dogs. And these dogs too, would have otherwise been euthed by the councils. At the end of the trials, they are put up for adoption, and kept until they are adopted. IMHO, a much better outcome than an end in the killing shed.

What Dellcara said Well, I would like to know what you suggest? It's not my suggestions. If is the fact that black and gloomy posts such as yours make the people who should be breeding stop. The greater majority of Cavaliers in this country show absolutely no signs of SM. 50% may well prove to have syrinxes on MRI, but if they have no symptoms, what's the problem? MVD is not a particular problem with registered dogs, but the vast majority are unregistered. Personally, I don't think doing the scans will lead anywhere. The fact that SM can spontaneously regress is a factor which everyone knows, and ignores. I suppose that is because scanning is the only way forward they see. SM is not the problem it is in the UK. You have no idea of the difficulty of having any dogs scanned here. You have no idea of the distances either. There is ONE subsidised scanner in the country, and there is no helpful club offering reduced price scans to dogs over 6 - because there are insufficient registered breeders to support anything like that, although they work damned hard to do as much as they can, It is a toss up whether the puppy numbers reach zero first, or the Government bans the breed. Just 3,186 registered Cavalier King Charles Spaniels were bred in 2009. That was an increase of over 1,000 since 1986, but when you consider the population of the country has doubled, (about 21million, I think) and 63% own a pet, the numbers bred are absymal, and dropping fast. According to my rough calculations, approximately 1,000 or more of those 3,186 pups are shipped out of Australia to a pet onshipping company in Hawaii. for delivery to pet shops in Asia. I would make an educated guess that 20,000 + Cavaliers are bred in Australia annually. if only 3,186 are registered and likely to be health tested, I suggest you buy a bell and ring it on the street corner to get your message to the would be buyers of those 16,000+ cavaliers. Because they are in the majority There are no where near enough registered dogs being bred to fill demand, the majority are unregistered from puppy factories. These people neither know nor care about SM - how do I know? Because I used to rescue them. This country is nothing like UK, and you are doing a great deal of damage I didn't see the pet owners raising money and donating privately to Claire Rusbridge to get this research started either. i saw Breeders doing all that. I saw breeders taking dogs to be scanned to try to establish some points of reference, good or bad. And the very worst thing is that I see breeders downing tools and walking away, or reducing their litters still further to reduce the possibility of sm. And sorry, you are totally unthinking, and you have no idea what you are talking about. You are not reducing SM, you are reducing the number of decent dogs bred.

Absolutely, Pekinese have an ancestral memory of being nurtured and wet nursed by slave girls and fed swallows' tongues by eunuchs. Why wouldn't they expect slaves?? Breeding always tells

Fact : There are about 5 to 10 times as many buyers as Cavalier pups from registered breeders who test. In Australia Fact: The greater number of Cavalier pups have come from byb and puppy farms, who do not give a rats about anything except money Fact: The people on this thread with problematic Cavaliers did not buy them from reputable breeders Fact: If they had tried to buy them from reputable breeders, they probably would be out of luck, so everyone understands Fact: Most registered breeders here sell to people who have bought from them before or to friends, or we sell to the best of 15 enquiries Fact: This country needs more reputable, ethical breeders, so more litters are bred Fact: The stuff you write makes no difference to people who want to breed for money, but it actually stops people who are genuine getting into breeding, because they are frightened away by what you say. Which would be ok if it was true, but it is not. I hope you are keeping hard copies of what you disseminate, so that you can remind yourself of how much you encouraged the banning of the breed you claimed to like. I think you can see that too, but you don't see a problem. I believe the % of cavs scanned with syrinxes is high because a lot of the cavs referrred for scanning are suspected of having SM, or are from lines where an ancestor has been suspected of having SM. And that makes the stats look worse than they are. It is so expensive to scan in Australia, a lot of breeders would prefer not to breed than to scan - because of the cost. And that means that there are perfectly healthy cavs taken out of the breeding pool because of what unknowing and unthinking people like you write and do. anyhow, take you advice, get together with a couple of pet owners, and breed your own. You'll have success and pleasure. Good luck.

Clark Rubber sells the matting. Not sure whether your local store will have red. But it does come in red The bowls are called spaniel bowls, and there are plastic and stainless steel ones, and I think they come in 2 sizes.

Not very common - huge personality, and marvellous temperament. Very clever, not your typical obedience dog, and the ones I know are happy to be lap dogs, but they are doers too. Good with kids, but have a good sense of their own importance. Don't think heat is a huge problem, but not the dog to be locked outside in summer. Be aware that long coat + brachycephalic MAY equal problems on really hot days, and be prepared to work around it. Ideal for someone who knows dogs, and can offer a lot of attention, and an inside home. Good registered breeder only. I don't think Pekinese are particularly loved by puppy farms, but I have heard of a few, so be sure you buy from someone who understands how the standard comes together, and the breed generally. And maybe do as much reading as possible.

I agree with Ellz. Ask them the colour of their rat. If it was white - forget it. If it sounds like the rat you have, tell them the truth. A rat is as important as a dog to a rat fancier, and I think they deserve to know what happened to their pet. If you handle it right, there wont be problems. Good luck :D Some of my cavs are destructo dogs on mice and rats. Just like Charlie

A chihuahua, imho, should not be flying until 10 - 12 weeks, depending on weight. Glucodin is ok, Karo syrup is ok - Liquid glucose is good too, you can rub it on the gums exactly as Paul Bright suggested (sorry, never used Karo). Hypoglycaemia obviously is caused by a drop in blood sugar level - dogs can lose consciousness, and subsequently die. It does tend to happen in young chihuauas, and other small dogs - poms, paps etc. Don't fly him till he is old enough, and if you are really worried, give him one of those Lixit drinkers hooked onto the crate with glucodin water in it. Dante, I think glucose is better than Nutrigel, more sugar, and faster absorption. It is the standard used by vets with hypo animals. He should be fine. Good luck, let us know.

Puppy Sniffer, is that person M? Most of the cav people know, and most of them are constrained by councils, space etc.

Actually, yes it does matter. If you are going to quote information then get it correct. This is typical of you, and even when you are corrected you ignore it. As can be seen on any forum you post to. As always, it's "doom and gloom" ... maybe some people look at the NSW report and say 50% are CLEAR .... I also noticed you mention one of the posts from this forum on the restricted group CavalierTalk .... why not raise it here Bet? why mention it on a forum where none of the breeders you contsantly attack are able to reply ? LATEST NEWS ON SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS. I would be so pleased to get an Answere to this, ,how am I attacking Cavalier Breeders when I am saying that the Cavalier Buying Public,should be advised to only buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who is Health Testing and following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations, and to see Proof that this is Being Done, how on Earth is this Attacking Cavalier Breeders, is this not Common Sense . Bet Hargreaves. You are atracking Cavalier breeders because you NEVER post any balanced reporting. Considering the paucity of MRI scanners for dogs in Aus,I would be surprised if the entire 60 dogs scanned were ALL breeders dogs, or dogs intended for breeding. As I just directed Sunnyflower and her dog to the next SM screening day, I am quite sure other owners with dogs with suspected SM have been directed to other screening days, and those dogs, which were already suspected of having SM were also screened. No doubt some dogs suspected of having SM would have been scanned privately and not included in those figures. I actually think you should get together with some of those pet owners you want to help, and breed Cavaliers without any problems for yourself, before the government bans breeding them.

LGs are very different from other dogs, and each breed has it's own characteristics, I would consider contacting Andrea who rescues Maremmas, or Vic. rescue, and talking to them. They perhaps may have a dog which has been used with stock, which could move to your place and bond with your stock .. only the rescue will know. They do often need good new homes. The advantage of this is that the dog will be protecting the dog almost immediately. I know a bit about Maremmas - they will go out to the attacking dog/fox or whatever. They bark loudly and often to discourage intruders. I have a friend with 2 - one stays with the flock, the other goes after the dogs. When a dingo pack turned up, one went for the pack, and killed one, there were a few left, the other left the flock and helped his friend. They killed 3 dingoes. One will go and kill foxes. I have another friend with one minding goats on the edge of town. he has killed foxes who are in his paddock. They are good pets too. Just make sure, if you go for a rescue, he has not been dumped because of bad behaviour. Nasty to lose sheep to damned dogs. (Voice of experience)

Thanks, Caz. Yep, agree, have had some wonderful offers, transport, people offering to donate, take dogs, pay freight. I really do appreciate all of you. And your efforts on behalf of the dogs.

Thanks, Holly's mum. Will pm you tomorrow. Physio today, and am really worn out. May never walk again!! Thanks Bellatrix

If Jed considered my offer and you were going down the New England Highway (which is the quickest way to Sydney from QLD in any event) I live 5 minutes off it , just north of Tamworth. I would be happy to drive the cavalier/s back to Brisbane if necessary early next year Thanks so much for the offer, I'll talk to choice brandy - I can't drive yet, so wont be driving them anywhere. The big problem with sending them away is the expense of getting them back. And of getting them there, but if they could be brought back .... well. Thanks for all the input guys, just going away to work on it a bit. Will get back to you. Edited to correct - I have been driving a little lately, gradually extending further from home - but an hour or two is certainly beyond my so far limited talents at the moment.

At that time, Buster Lloyd Jones was a KC judge who bred dacshunds - and wrote quite a few books around and later than that era. I think he was a vet, but have forgotten. I do believe he wrote a bit on euthing of purebred dogs. Owners were asked to do it because food, particularly meat, was in very short supply, and it was felt that it was unfair for dogs to be fed when people were going hungry. Some dogs breeds were brought almost to extinction. My reading leads me to understand that people (breeders etc) who were keeping numbers of dogs were criticised for being unpatriotic. Numerous packs of hounds and terriers were decimated as well. I'd google Buster Lloyd Jones. Quite a few articles were written in the English dog magazines in the late 40s and early 50s, regarding this, and it may be that you will find one. We had heaps of (out of date) them when I was a kid, full of all kinds of articles, poems, people's opinions etc - and I did read about what happened during the more, but more from the slant of increasing the dogs and bloodlines, and how to do it. The UKKC library may contain something of interest. Sorry, I know that isn't what you wanted, but hope it gives you a start

Liath it is not practical to get them to Townsville, otherwise, that would be great. Choice Brandy, a lift for 2 would be marvellous. CavNRott, may be ok, but travel is the issue.

Sheridan Not when I looked last. However, people who go shock shreik horror are rather discouraged. As you have seen. Pet owners in ths thread have been encouraged to discover more about health in their breed, not chased away. I have tried not to be rude to Bet Hargraves. However the problem with her is that she takes some news or other, and turns it into some black problem which is not fixable, and is never fixable. Having read her comments on various lists and forums world wide, my patience is wearing thin. I would welcome some useful input - but she has none, jusr doom and gloom. There are problems in the Cavalier breed - as there are problems in your breed, in poodles, and in other breeds. The problems in Aus are not as great as Bet Hargraves intimates. And the "latest news" is very old news indeed. As far as I can see, her desire is to have the breed pushed out of existence, because she happened to have one - from a reg breeder - which got sick. People who buy these dogs should be aware that there are NO tests for syringo, and few tests for MVD, so if you buy one, you could expect to have problems, no matter what lines or kennels you buy from. Buyers choice. Reputable breeders inform their buyers, and of course non reputable ones dont., I suppose really, it depends on whether you think pet owners with axes to grind - ie, Bet Hargraves and Carol Fowler should be allowed to dictate, through their ceaseless harping, the failure of the breed. And it surely will fail. They are just making it happen faster

Thanks, Clyde - they aren't used to kids, but they like everyone - may not be good with crawlers or toddlers - and cats are fine

Hi Barkon, there are 4 - I would like them to go in a pair - not alone, so they are comfortable. Send me a pm please? Fifi pacers. No.

Unfortunately, I need to find fosters for, or rehome my Cavaliers. I will probably not be able to take them back until February/March/April next year, depending on how my healing goes, and whether I have a home or not. If possible, QLD would be better all round because of the difficulty of transporting them elsewhere. Please send me a pm if you think you can help"

No Sell the dog to someone else. People who genuinely want to breed get no stick from me. I sell them the best I have, or I send them to someone who has better. I am happy to mentor, give services, do whatever to help them breed nice healthy dogs. But I need them to be upfront. People who wanted a pet and suddenly decide they "might like to breed a litter or two" can be problems. The fact that they didn't tell you up front, OR decided after a discussion with the brother or terrier friends would ring big alarm bells for me. Why? Because it is a frequent and sinister scenario. Breeders who have this breed wouldn't be paranoid if puppy purchasers didn't lie through their rotten cotton picking back teeth on a regular basis. And the longer you breed, the more paranoid you become. Why did you breed the litter as "pets only"? What does "pets only" actually mean to you? Just confused, help me out.

I think they are referring to the silver labrador, which is not an acceptable colour but is being bred all the same. Personally I think they're beautiful, not sure if there are any health issues associated or not. If that is not a weim cross, I am a hot cross bun with lots of butter, hold the honey thanks. If you look at the standards, there are more weim points than lab points ... eg, where is the otter tail? It doesn't even look llike a poor quality lab, it looks like a cross bred.

Sources please? This is mostly myth, caused by the fact that gold/goldens cockers were a popular colour back in the 70's and 80's, and everyone jumped on board breeding them, in particular back yarders, who in turn sell to people who have no idea how to handle and raise them. Or bad temperament ones were bred and you end up with a whole colour where many are poorily temperamented dogs. I always find it so interesting that blame is always put on the handling and raising - there's a much bigger picture. If a whole 'Colour'/Breed has a problem (large % of them) you can't keep sticking your head in the sand (not that I'm saying YOU are). I've also read about the Cockers, I think it was actually in Dr Temple Grandins book. I don't know that Temple Grandin is the cocker guru, is he? SOME cockers suffered from "cocker rage" in the 70s. SOME being the operative word. Most of them were in England. Suddenly, every gold cocker which twitched his whiskers has cocker rage. People ran down the streets screaming about "cocker rage". It replaced "the Huns are coming" as the catch cry of the century. I have had cockers ALL my life. My parents bought the first one when I was 2. I've bred them, using various lines. I've never seen cocker rage. I know a lot of breeders. They've never seen cocker rage. We 've ALL heard about it. Few breeders - anywhere -have ever seen a dog with cocker rage. I've never seen a dog with it. We are talking about 30 years ago here, yet "cocker rage" is dragged out at every opportunity. The UK cocker club acknowledged cocker rage (in the 70s) and asked for owners with this problem to step up and have the dog identified and tested as a means of ridding the breed of the problem. It was thought it was due to a brain malfunction, so they wanted to identify the lines. I have no cdoubt "cocker rage" in gold cockers was a fact. Maybe it was a brain misfunction, maybe it was a temperament problem. Whatever it was, the UK cocker club did a good job of ridding the breed of the problem - 30 years ago. Other problem is that people buy a cute little fluffy cocker puppy (probably from the pet shop), no one tells them they have a good hard working dog. Despite the fact that he has good temperament, and is great with kids, he IS a working dog. They bring him up as if he was a stuffed teddy bear, indulging his every whim, only positive training, never a "no"was heard, and blow me down, when he hits 14 months, he damn well snarls at them when they try to put him off the couch. And THAT would be cocker rage for sure!! ~Anne~ Dr Bob Rogers (Texas?) and Dr Catherine O Driscoll have written quite a few papers on the subject - all in agreement with Dr. Dodd. There are a few others, but these are the main 3. Catherine O Driscoll has a free newsletter. Dr Bob is sueing the government and the drug manufacturers. Both have websites I think Dr Dodd's writing might have been easier to find, and maybe there is a little more of it. In the early days in Australia, particularly on this forum, she was quoted more than the other two, when those who were switched on about vaccinations were having brawls discussions with those who had never heard of any other protocol. Or perhaps Dr Dodd was better at promotion? The article she wrote on the Wycliffe poodles in (??? decades ago) brought her to the attention of breeders world wide, so she was certainly better known. Liath Stick with the vet you go to now. 2 of the Cavaliers I bred died of problems which MAY have been caused by vaccinosis. The fact that they developed the problems and died within a month of vaccination leads me to believe vaccinoses was at fault -- but there is no proof. I also believe a lot of Cavaliers with skin problems have been over vaccinated, and that has led to the skin problems, and yes, there are proven links. Hamengiosarcoma (sp?) is more common in black dogs, as some other sarcomas are common in white dogs. There are studies which support this, apparently. And the word is that black and tan dogs are more prone to parvo -- I have had quite a few vets tell me that, and never thought to ask why they thought that. Black dogs and staffies are also supposed to be more prone to parvo. Didn't ask about that one either.

Bet Hargraves, if you want to do something for the breed, advise the breeders how to avoid syringmyelia and mitral valve disease instead of writing your opinions as "latest news". No breeder wants to produce unhealthy dogs - despite what Harrison says - but there is NO way of knowing. You are flogging a very dead horse here.

Assumption much asal!!!!! Sorry, but aside from the fact that I find it incredibly difficult to read your posts due to lack of punctuation and capital letters.....a lot of what you say is absolute crap based upon your own misconceptions and pre-conceived ideas of dog breeders. sweetie, just talk to your own vet. thats not assumptions, the rate of bitches who have never had a litter naturally is amazing and some are generations of such mums. one breeders bitches wont even feed their pups past day 10 so they are hand fed from then, thats not assumptions. has been breeding for decades that breed. imagine a newbie starting out with a bitch pup from such lines. they will be wreaks trying to understand why the pups are hungry. another friend out coonabarabran bred their bitch and discovered she couldnt deliver so had to drive 200 km to nearest vet. to learn 4 generations of ceasers behind her. does not look like assumptions to me anyway DARLING, I've been breeding purebred dogs for 24 years and I know for a FACT that I don't tolerate consistently problematic lines and I do not take over from mother nature without a VERY good reason. I would also suggest that very few breeders enjoy having to spend a lot of money on sections that could be avoided. I would also hazard a guess that asking some vets may not be a good idea because some of them LOVE recommending unneccessary sections because it is a lovely source of ready revenue. So, until you are a dog breeder and KNOW for a fact what goes on behind closed doors, you should probably just keep your assumptions to yourself because each and every time you put your fingers to your keyboard, you show yourself to be a nasty, spiteful person with a lot of opinion and very little real knowledge about certain issues.We all KNOW you've had your issues with the RSPCA but to be honest, you are sounding more and more like that organisation and the gardener every day and that is of great concern IMO. Not meaning to be quarrelsome, Ellz, but I believe asal has been breeding for considerably longer than 24 years. And I don't believe asal was accusing you of anything - she was stating what she believed happens - which imho, does not make her a nasty spiteful person - but I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong