Jed

Can you please share where you got that data Steve, because I've never found anything concrete to show that crossbreed dogs are on average less healthy than the average purebred. Thanks. Padgett - I didnt say one was more or less healthy over all than the other I said that here is less genetic diseases in purebreds than in mixed breeds. Less, as in fewer types of genetic disease, or lower incidence? Will have a look at Padgett, thanks - do you have first initials or name of book/article? Oh Mita has a link to a couple of scientific studies in Finland or Norwegia or somewhere saying purebred live longer and another saying they suffer fewer diseases. She has posted the links here

Only my guess from what I see being done, but I think pug faces will be one of the first extreme traits they go after. I did think they would go after the Bull Dog first, but now it really is looking like they will go after a trait instead and then apply the science/evidence or what have you to all breeds where it fits. There was a drawing of what they wanted the Bull Dogs head to look like. It had a substanstial nose, the eyes were deep seated as in a normal skull and the head was of normal size (much smaller than it is now). So I would guess it will be about the same for all the pug faced breeds. A real nose, eye set deep and not a large head. Not up on it but I think ther eis also some spinal condition they are looking at too that go along witht he head?? Edited to ad. Just as you told Jed about her dog, you would need to really test before you can say that hearts, hips elbows, hocks and knees are clear of disease. indeed but the HUGE difference here is i am not breeding her so therefore am not giving the public possibly dodgy progeny My dog has been tested. I told you that. There are no syrinxes present on MRI. He is over 5, so it is unlikely he will develop syrinxes. He has no symptoms Additionally, I do not breed him. I have nor used him myself at stud for over 2 years. Nor will I will use him again, nor will I breed Cavaliers because I will not run the risk of producing a pup with SM. MY dogs are all in the lowest risk category, my dog should be used at stud because he has no symptoms of SM, he has NO syrinxes on MRI examination (which makes him an A) and he has never thrown a pup with SM, I do not want to run the risk of breeding any pups with syringo, no matter how unlikely. Ever. So don't label me as producing "dodgy progeny" when you have NFI Oh and he was heart clear at 7 both his patellas and his hips are excellent.

Ah Ruger - I'll bet the dog your son wanted to pat was light coloured. Exhibitor spends about 6 hours tarting up the dog, and a child puts a dirty handmark right in the middle of the dog ... too late to get it out before judging. Some exhibitors are happier about pats than others too, and you probably struck the wrong one. Dalmation in it's crate would have been protecting its territory - probably ok out of the crate. I never walk too close to crates at shows, because a lot of the dogs do fly up to the front (and frighten the daylights out of me). Also, some of the competitors may not be too experienced, and haven't learned how to stop the dogs doing it. One of the nicest memories I have of showing my 2 cockers is of after the judging, little kids came along and wanted to pat them - kids and pups had a wonderful romp for 1/2 an hour, coz I was gossiping, and the cockers lived kids. Don't despair, lots of exhibitors love kids and after judging, he will probably find heaps of dogs to pat. Well, I hope so And Sheridan needs to do something to avoid future problems. Good luck, Sheridan.

Equerry I have been told pugs aren't. I have had Cavs, Cockers and boxers on a horse stud, with usual stud things happening, shows, breakng and training. All the cockers and boxers were ok, most of the Cavs were, but some never seemed to get that those big fast things might stand on them and kill them. Some believe they are bullet proof, and a lot are not very obedient. If your riding coach's name begins with P, the Cav there is one I bred - who is far too switched on to by stood on by a horse. The exception "Did you call me? ME? Goodness, I'll have to think about that" which is not the response you want when they are about to be stood on by a horse. Quite a few are killed by horses. Cockers seem to get it, and boxers are good too.

Toddle next door with a bunch of flowers - not too big, and not too flash. Tell her the council called because the dogs had been making a nuisance of themselves, and although you had no idea who complained, you figured she would have been hearing them too - and the flowers were to make up for that. Tell her they were barking at the men on the roof. Give her your ph number, ask her to drop you a note or phone if the dogs bark too much again. Suck up, suck up!! Time to do the nice thing. She will be happy. And next time, she will probably tell you not the council. Dogs barking drive me insane. There is a lttle lonely white dog who lives on the spare room side of my daughter's house. When I stayed there, he started barking at 2 every afternoon and continued until dark, when I presume his owners returned. He drove me insane. We discussed whether it would be possible to dognap him and debark him and have him awake again by 6pm No, I didn't complain, but I could have. When you are sick, things like that become Mt Everest.

I am sorry, Jaxxs Buddy, I really don't have any idea what you are referring to. I am sorry if you perceived breeders as arrogant and sarcastic. It was certainly not intentional. I dont believe anyone thought pet owners were dim. It is a convoluted problem, and the information coming from one poster was misleading. Recommended protocol was listed on that thread. Mita, you know what I think, I've been saying it here, to the CCs, to councillors, to other breeders and pet owners ad nauseum for the past 8 or 10 years. I am tired of the "paranoid" label, and I am becoming boring, so I am bowing out of this thread now, as I have nothing constructive to add on how to reverse the tide, at this time. Good on you for believing in purebreds, and having the guts to say it You're right about dacshunds - my registered standard lived in good health for 23 years.

The owner has decided they don't like the dog anymore.... so...... should they get full refund?????? Of course not. If you buy a nice Honda, drive it for a couple of months around Australia and then decide there are a few things you don't like about it, try telling that to Honda. If the breeder wants the dog back, make an offer, if the breeder doesn't want to buy the dog back, the buyer must keep it. What does the buyer think, they have bought the dog from Joe's second hand swap meet? If I was the breeder, I'd offer them their $$ back, take the poor bloody dog and rehome it to someone decent, and they certainly wouldn't be swapping for another dog, or buying another one from me. Ever

Sorry Mita, difficult to be specific sometimes. I know what you meant. However, my experience is that when people are told, they do not believe. I don't understand it. You and shortstep put up those links, or copy and paste - no one seems interested. Yet they fully believe PDE, guess it is the power of the TV. Yes purebreds do need promotion, and proper promotion on a regular basis. I'd like to think it might happen. Jaxxs Buddy, you may have found the truth "arrogant" - but the person Mita refers to is known on forums worldwide we are all on and I am not allowing someone to misquote what I said so that I appear dodgy when I am not, and leave it unchallenged. Fact is, no one knows what causes SM, no one knows how to breed away from it, all people are doing is the best they can according to the recommended protocol, not breeding A to A because that's the way to the end, as the forum member well knows.

The public doesn't get told. There's no coordinated public relations efforts on behalf of purebred dogs. It's skilled PR that's catapaulted rescue dogs into the public consciousness. You are correct. Problem is, when they ARE told, they don't believe it. Read what Shortstep wrote on SM in cavs. Excellent studies were presented to the forum, and the recommended protocol, which most breeders are using. Yet some on the forum were prepared to believe the opinion of a forum member in preference. Not a scientifically tested protocol, an OPINION by someone who is not a breeder, and which opinion will lead to the demise of these dogs - and is against the recommended protocol as well. Breeders who don't believe it will ever happen couldn't be bothered with promotion. Those (like me) who think it is all over red rover - and that is a hell of a lot of breeders - are winding down, as I said before. They will continue to wind down.

Ditto and why I am having problems answering you...LOL um yes, well maybe too simplistic on my part but wolves brains are like dogs with long noses brains. There is no pug face in wild dogs?? so 1 + 1 = the change ??? here is a bit of what he says, enjoy lol But how could skull shortening affect cerebral organization? Studies of human craniosynostosis [22], [23] and immature head banding [23] suggest that the development of brain shape and size is closely interrelated to the configuration of dura matter as well as the co-developing cranial vault. Changes to any of one of these factors can lead to changes in the others [22]. Differences in canine skull length resulting from artificial human selection pressures may have led to alterations in cerebral development most evident in brachycephalic versus dolicocephalic dogs. Specifically, rostral intracranial volumetric restriction during development of short-skulled dogs may explain the combination of axis rotation and olfactory bulb repositioning. Regodon et al (1993) also noted that reduced skull length in brachycephalic dogs gives rise to a more perpendicular development of the cranium relative to the facial axis [5]. These anatomical adaptations could hence represent a biological solution to a ‘space problem’. The olfactory bulb seems to have migrated to a potential space ventral to the orbital frontal cortex, thereby freeing the anterior pole for normal development of the frontal cortex. Alternatively, animals at the dolichocephalic end of the spectrum may have sufficient ‘spare capacity’ in the cranial vault to permit olfactory bulb development almost directly anterior to the frontal lobe. Either of these possible explanations relies on an evolutionary and developmental preference to preserve frontal lobe volume. Future studies could therefore directly compare frontal lobe morphology in brachy- and dolichocephalic dogs. Gee thanks, you sure are a pal. Even after wolves, where are the MRI supporting his writings? Did the Empress Ming Li in the 5th century allow the pekinese to be MRI'd? The problem with this particular fairy story is that instead of "are" and "proof" and scientific studies - we have instead adverbs such as ...... "suggest, can lead to, may have led, may explain, also noted, could hence represent, may have, these possible explanations, could therefore" And absolutely no hard evidence of anything. I actually think Harry Potter is more likely to be valid and truthful (and relevant) so really, it is only a bit of supposition, based on nothing whatsoever. Yet people believe it is a scientific study. Unfortunately, Mita, although all the studies are there, backed by anecdotal evidence the public hasn't seen them and wouldn't believe them.

We have been defeated for years.

Hi Shortstep, yep I saw that thanks, by McGreevey. Although he stated the olefactory centre was removed, he failed to illustrate how he could prove it had moved, which I was remarking on. Although I may have missed it. Edited to say - I try not to read McGreevey, life can only be depressing to a certain level

With all due respect, the CCs, MDBA will not solve this problem "Something" should have been done years ago, it is too late now. Doesn't matter what anyone says, pedigree dogs are on the way out. There will be no fighting or screaming, or prising breeders' fingernails off doorways as they strive to hang on, because they will let go, as many have already let go. So when the regulation which breaches the breeders own personal code of ethics is part of their COE, they will quit Breeders have been aware of the coming problems for ages. Now they are doing their "dream" matings, or importing lines they always wanted, so they will have dogs to show when they cease breeding. These are good breeders, producing good and sound dogs, who will not be told by an outside body how to do something they have done successfully for years. Many have already walked away - the ANKC registrations are about the same as they were years ago (the number of years depends on the breed) and those numbers have been boosted by people (I wont dignify them by calling them breeders) who are producing numerous pups for export to Hawaii. Many reputable Cav breeders will not breed until there is more knowledge of SM - so they will not breed again. Personally, I just cannot see Judy Gard taking breeding advice from the RSPCA. Shortstep Hmm, did you see any proof that the olefactory centre was elsewhere x years ago? And with NO MRIs, how did they deduce where the olefactory centre was ? SM - Griffons, Cavaliers, Bostons, Poodles, Chihuahuas, Maltese, Pomeranians - and more - have SM. The reason why the Cav got such excess publcity is because the BREEDERS, OWNERS, AND CLUBS WORLDWIDE donated quite a lot of money particularly to Claire Rusbridge for research to get to the bottom of this disease. And because there is a dedicated effort, with subsidised scans etc (paid for by breeders), which no other breed has, the poor old Cav got ALL the bad press.

CW, what you do it up to you, they are your dogs, and they need to be safe. It is possible, however, that the Shih Tzu is ok. He is with a strange person, in a strange place. He is on lead. Shih Tzus are a guarding breed, and he is on lead, which makes his instincts kick in more than usual. The only way to have any sort of interaction with this dog is with him off lead, and I would suggest that he will not behave his best in a strange place, with strange people. But it is doomed to disaster if he is on lead. I have no idea what his body language is saying - maybe he is ok, maybe not, and if you can't tell for sure, make sure your kids are safe. Shih Tzu might be barking his head off, but it's all talk. If you do want some interaction, sit down, hold your dogs on your lap and let the Shih Tzu run free to see what happens. Shih Tzu's are not particularly aggressive, but I am sure you can push him off if he proves me wrong and wants to rip out the throat of one of your dogs. But I think he wants to be friends. Being on a lead when meeting other dogs has a whole lot of connotations to a dog - and laugh though you may, Shih Tzu's ARE guard dogs, so they would resent it more than a toy breed, or a retriever. But it is your call - you have to do what you are comfortable with.

I think I missed that. Those of us who are passionate about something tend to ride our horse a bit hard at times - and when we have been imbibing in the liquid that cheers, sometimes we gallop when a sedate trot would have been more suitable. And I think we all understand. The people you spoke to at the time - lets hope they understand. I am sure they do.

Equerry Just my opinion - cavaliers and pugs are not "horse savvy" enough to be out with horses. Consider a spitz - Finnish etc - I don't think they chase, and they may suit you and your daughter. Or a samoyd Cocker spaniel - needs to be from a "good" kennel - good with cats and horses, easy to train, need grooming. Spot the dog - I have eradicated feral cats on two properties and no more moved in. My dogs do discourage them, whilst not chasing the house cats. Maybe just lucky?

It is self evident. Some pounds are paid $x by councils to take dogs. If all the $x is not spent on the dog, the pound makes a profit. SOME pound euth in preference to rehoming because it is more profitable. And if the ongoing blood and bone rumour is correct, they make even more profit from that. I have no proof of the latter claim - but a rumour which persists for years in "reliable" circles may be worth checking. That's the short answer, because I am not intersted in this discussion. I only answered Steve's question, she didn't know the profit margin of pet shops. Further investigation into the financials of some pounds will prove I am correct. Whether pounds are making a profit and whether they will fight is peripheral to the discussion and unimportant anyway.

Large shops source from puppy farms. That is the only way they can keep an constant supply of pups. 3 times purchase price for shops in busy shopping centres. 2 times purchase price in smaller centres. Small independent stores double the purchase price. If the pup has been there too long, price will reduce. Sllight difference between pure and x bred dogs, but that is the rule of thumb Don't believe me? ir's easy to find out. Same way you would find out what any store pays for anything. You will find I am correct. None of this is important, if RSPCA continues to push to ban puppy farms, the gov MAY ban the sale of pups from pet shops. Only way to do it. Without pet shops, half or more than half of puppy farms trade would disappear and if they were unprofitable, they would close. They are businesses, NOT dog lovers Nothing will happen because the government will not grasp the nettle and ban the sales of pups in pet shops. Neither will the RSPCA push for it. Are you saying that the only way pet shops can source their puppies is by buying from someone who keeps their dogs in substandard conditions? The RSPCA is not pushing to ban commercial breeders more than they are any other breeder. Law changes which have been promised to curb people breeding in sub standard conditions dont mention pet shops. Government can do anything but in this country before they do they will need to consider federal laws and facts and not emotive animal rights led propoganda which is so easy to refute.Way before they ban them they will introduce more laws to regulate them and take away the element of anonymity of the breeder in my opinion. Either way other people can carry on if they like about more laws and chant "ban the sales of pets in pet shops" but Im not backing any law changes and Im looking for alternatives for the purposes of this discussion. In response to the piece I have bolded (above). That is not what I said, please re-read my post. Headlines - all over Australia. RSPCA & Biosecurity Qld raid Kingaroy puppy farm - two hundred and something dogs seized. People on this forum fostered some of the dogs. Ruth Schloss was a supplier to pet shops. Whether you consider this operation "substandard conditions" is your call. I'm not chanting anything. My belief is that the sale of pups from pet shops should be banned for a whole lot of reasons which have already been discussed in this thread.. You asked for information, I gave it to you. [/b]Given that the agreed definition of a puppy farmer is someone who breeds their puppies in substandard conditions it still reads to me that you are saying that the only way pet shops can keep a constant supply of puppies is to purchase puppies from those who are puppy farmers or people who keep their dogs in sub standard conditions. If we are each using a different definition of what a puppy farm is then the whole meaning of the post will be changed for me and many who have read what you have written and why I asked the question. I have re read your post several times and I wasnt quite sure what you meant so I asked and as instructed I have re read your post again and I am still unsure of what you meant - you said Quote Large shops source from puppy farms. That is the only way they can keep an constant supply of pups. My definition of a puppy farm is an agricultural establishment for the breeding of puppies. Where very large quantities of puppies are kept, and by the fact that large numbers are kept, they are kept in sub standard conditions. Pet shops source puppy farms for a CONSTANT supply of pups. My presumption is that if you are keeping a puppy farm, you are keeping and raising the pups in substandard conditions, simply because it is a Puppy Farm. If you are buying from byb, with one litter at a time, they do not supply enough at once. You need x pups on x date, and you need a constant supply, not any supply. If you have a grocery store, you need a constant supply of sugar, not a man who comes in now and again with 8 kg of sugar which you can buy. You need a supplier who has 10 tonnes of sugar to fulfill your customers' regular requirements as decent size pet shops need a puppy farmers Apparently, the difficult word is "constant". "A supply" is not a "constant supply". Constant is happening week after week, month after month, reliably. A shop which has no stock is not successful. And MOSTLY, ill pups would not be sold to pet shops by puppy farms. Mrs Schloss was breeding 800+ pups per year? 200+ bitches were removed by RSPCA. 200 bitches were not removed. If each bitch successfull reared 2 pups annuall, that is 800 pups.. Quite a few of her pups were ill at pos yet they were still taken. There are hundreds of puppy farms around Australia. pet shops in major shoppng venues sell 20 odd pups per week. Multiply that by the number of pet shops selling pups, and there is no where they could source the quantity of pups required except from puppy farms. Puppy barns sell 50 odd pups per week. I very much doubt that those pups could be sourced except from puppy farms. Ban the sale of pups in pet shops, and you halve or more than halve the profit of puppy farms. So numerous puppy farms close. JMHO RSPCA cannot, I believe, close puppy farms without closing registered breeders. Stopping pet shops selling pups fnancially cripples puppy farms. It might cripple some registerd breeders who are supplying pet shops too, so what? Another dodgy breeder gone, good riddance. That is my solution to the problem. Others may not agree with it, that is their right. If that was adopted and the original suggestion I made about 6 years ago that ALL pups be chipped with the address of the new owner with the breeder as the second contact, I do think dumpage rates would be significantly reduced The microchipping idea was that if the owner took the dog to the pound, or would not collet him from the pound, the breeder would be contacted, and given a short period of time (3 days?) to collect the dog. Breeder could either collect the dog, get someone else to collect it, or organise euthanasia. There would be no penalty for the breeder. It wasn't the breeder who sent it to the pound. If the breeder refused to collect the dog, or euthanse it, then penalties would apply. Reputable breeders would be only too pleased to collect the dog and rehome it. Lots of work to set it up. The pound industry, and profit making abilities would reduce drastically. Employees could be removed from animal care, and put to contacting breeders. The numbers would be huge in the beginning. Puppy farms and "accidental" litter breeders would not be pleased if numerous full grown dogs were returned to them. I think in the 3rd year 60% of the puppy farms would close. The basic reason why 60% of dogs end up in the pound is because the person assessing the puppy enquiry got it wrong. 40% of dogs probably would end up there no matter what .... perhaps that figure is too high. If breeders who basically dumped the pups on people who were too slow to say "no" and got an out of control feral dog back in a year or 6 months, how keen would they be to repeat the exercise. It will never work - too easy. Pounds which are makng a living out of the dogs would fight it tooth and nail. PIAA would fight it tooth and nail. Reconcile yourselves to draconial legislation. :D "it's only a matter of time" as the song goes.

Only people who live in NQ could answer that. As far as I am aware, there are no heart clinics and there is no heart specialist there. Maybe contact Dr Brad Gavaghan B.V.Sc., Q'ld, F.A.C.V.Sc. 1985 Business address: Veterinary Cardiology and Imaging Pty Ltd, 79 Laidlaw St, Dayboro, His specialty is Veterinary Medicine - Cardiology. I think it is unlikely that he travels to your area, but he may be able to recommend someone else. There is not an oversupply of Cardiology specialists, and Dr. Gavaghan is probably the right place to begin. Sorry I don't have a phone number. Otherwise phone the vet school at University of Qld, and put the question to them. Good luck.

Spikes Puppy If the purebreds in pet shops came from dodgy beginnings, (including dodgy registered breeders) and most of them do - there is every possiblity that they could have health and behavioural issues, which would then be blamed on the entire breed, not the source. But of course, they do now, and the public does think that *sigh*

Large shops source from puppy farms. That is the only way they can keep an constant supply of pups. 3 times purchase price for shops in busy shopping centres. 2 times purchase price in smaller centres. Small independent stores double the purchase price. If the pup has been there too long, price will reduce. Sllight difference between pure and x bred dogs, but that is the rule of thumb Don't believe me? ir's easy to find out. Same way you would find out what any store pays for anything. You will find I am correct. None of this is important, if RSPCA continues to push to ban puppy farms, the gov MAY ban the sale of pups from pet shops. Only way to do it. Without pet shops, half or more than half of puppy farms trade would disappear and if they were unprofitable, they would close. They are businesses, NOT dog lovers Nothing will happen because the government will not grasp the nettle and ban the sales of pups in pet shops. Neither will the RSPCA push for it. Are you saying that the only way pet shops can source their puppies is by buying from someone who keeps their dogs in substandard conditions? The RSPCA is not pushing to ban commercial breeders more than they are any other breeder. Law changes which have been promised to curb people breeding in sub standard conditions dont mention pet shops. Government can do anything but in this country before they do they will need to consider federal laws and facts and not emotive animal rights led propoganda which is so easy to refute.Way before they ban them they will introduce more laws to regulate them and take away the element of anonymity of the breeder in my opinion. Either way other people can carry on if they like about more laws and chant "ban the sales of pets in pet shops" but Im not backing any law changes and Im looking for alternatives for the purposes of this discussion. In response to the piece I have bolded (above). That is not what I said, please re-read my post. Headlines - all over Australia. RSPCA & Biosecurity Qld raid Kingaroy puppy farm - two hundred and something dogs seized. People on this forum fostered some of the dogs. Ruth Schloss was a supplier to pet shops. Whether you consider this operation "substandard conditions" is your call. I'm not chanting anything. My belief is that the sale of pups from pet shops should be banned for a whole lot of reasons which have already been discussed in this thread.. You asked for information, I gave it to you.

LATEST NEWS ON SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS If I could answer Jed's Post,where she mentioned that the Cavalier Buying Public should not have been made aware about the Two Serious Health Problems afflicting Our Cavaliers , I think that the Folk Buying Cavaliers should be being made aware about those Problems, then it will follow on that the Question is being asked of Cavalier Breeders ,are they Health Testing and following the Cavalier Breeding Recomendations on their Cavalier Breeding Stock, and if the Cavalier Breeders are not doing this, then any-one wanting a Cavalier should go to a Cavalier Breeder who is doing this.What else can be being done at the moment.? Bet Hargreaves HOW DARE YOU MISQUOTE ME? CAN'T YOU READ? IF YOU THINK THAT IS WHAT I SAID, I THINK YOU NEED GO BACK TO GRADE 2 - AND LEARN COMPREHENSION. BUT YOU DID UNDERSTAND WHAT I WROTE. YOU ARE SIMPLY CAUSING TROUBLE AGAIN. YOU CONSTANTLY VISIT FORUMS AND LIST, MISQUOTING INFORMATION UNTIL YOU ARE BANISHED AND THEN YOU CHOOSE ANOTHER ONE. YOUR INTENTION IS TO HAVE THE GOVERNMENT BAN THE BREEDING OF CAVALIERS, AND I REALLY DO THINK YOU MAY ACHIEVE IT. It's always been too easy to sit on the sidelines and ridicule those doing the work, without contributing one iota to it. It's easy to criticise, Bet, but it is more difficult to do it - and do it right. I don't see any evidence anywhere that you have done anything good for the breed at all. All you do is try to bring it down. Incidentally, you didn't answer my post, all you did s misquote me. Not good enough, try to bring a modicom of commonsense and worthwhile information to the discussion, will you?? The "latest news" is either the old news rehashed to suit your machievellian design, or more up to date news, skewed your way. Yep, Delcara is correct, we have been around the SM mulberry bush so many times that many of us are giddy. Bottom line is that no one has much idea why SM happens, no one has much idea how to prevent it, breeders are doing all they can to provide dogs for scanning so that the way forward may be clearer - at their expense. People like Bet Hargraves sit on the sidelines, contribute nothing, but snivel and complain. Jaxxs Buddy Realistically, consider the expense. Breeders in Sydney can take advantage of the scanner which the Cavalier breeders obtained so dogs in Aus could be scanned (Please note, Bet Hargraves, feel free to contribute some funds towards the purchase of the next one? They aren't cheap, and as you seem to have so much to say, I am sure you would like to help us out here. We'd all be grateful.). However, for anyone not near Sydney, you can say min of $1500, max of $2000. Use $2000 as the figure - pretty well everyone charges about $1400, getting yourself and dog to Sydney, accommodation, blah blah. $2000. So $4000 to scan the parents. 4 pups, wait until they are 2.5 yrs, scan them, $8000. So you have coughed up $12000 just in scans. Looks good - except - if as LizT says, scans dont indicate anything. $12,000 is a lot of money to spend - and still not be able to guarantee that if you breed the parents, or the pups, they will not throw SM. You couldn't even guarantee that the pups would continue to be A past 2.5 years. And you are currently paying to have all you dogs heart scanned annually by a specialist cardiologist. You have had the patellas of the parents checked, and x rayed if your vet wasn't 100% confident with his examination. This is a minority disease in this country amongst registered cavaliers. Yes, it does crop up occasionally, but so does mega oesophagus, non hereditary heart murmurs, leukemia, and auto immune diseases which have no hereditary component. Now, Bet, you can scuttle whereever you wish, and tell everyone and anyone you like that I am against MRI-ing. Good luck to you. As this was brought to the public domain, I think it is much better if "the public" and dog owners are given correct information. jed i find this post of yours offensive and unnecessary. That's OK Jaxx's Buddy. You are not the one who was misquoted and made to look like someone uncaring, when I was actually trying to explain the problem. I am sorry you are offended, but it is not your integrity which is in question and none of my last post was directed to you. Everyone skirts around everything because they don't want to be labelled as Bet Hargraves just labelled me. I don't care much, but I am am not allowing it to pass Thanks BB - yep, we would have all them done if it cost $100 --- and probably none of us would object too much to the cost of scanning if there was a definitive answer coming from it. There is not. My cav dog, from lines where I can find no dog with SM, who has no syrinxes and has never thrown a pup with SM could do so in any future litter. It is something all breeders have to face Thanks Delcara As Delcara I am exiting this thread. It's a shame that attempts to help people understand are met with the sort of rubbish which went on here. If you want to learn, try the Cavalier websites as a beginning, and go from there. Don't think that you will learn from Bet Hargraves, you wont, but feel free pm Delcara if you like, or me.

Poor dogs. I don't think there will bea definitive answer without a pm on the dog/s. Some options are - lead poisoning, toxic chemicals in the shed, toxic chemicals in the ground. Presuming the dogs were vac (though probably not) not parvo. Severe gut infection for eating something on the property, ate too many sultanas or chocolate. Short answer? I have NFI and neither does anyone else. All we can do is put up suggestions, and maybe if someone wants to check the symptoms for some of the likely causes, it may bring you closer to the answer/

LATEST NEWS ON SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS If I could answer Jed's Post,where she mentioned that the Cavalier Buying Public should not have been made aware about the Two Serious Health Problems afflicting Our Cavaliers , I think that the Folk Buying Cavaliers should be being made aware about those Problems, then it will follow on that the Question is being asked of Cavalier Breeders ,are they Health Testing and following the Cavalier Breeding Recomendations on their Cavalier Breeding Stock, and if the Cavalier Breeders are not doing this, then any-one wanting a Cavalier should go to a Cavalier Breeder who is doing this.What else can be being done at the moment.? Bet Hargreaves HOW DARE YOU MISQUOTE ME? CAN'T YOU READ? IF YOU THINK THAT IS WHAT I SAID, I THINK YOU NEED GO BACK TO GRADE 2 - AND LEARN COMPREHENSION. BUT YOU DID UNDERSTAND WHAT I WROTE. YOU ARE SIMPLY CAUSING TROUBLE AGAIN. YOU CONSTANTLY VISIT FORUMS AND LIST, MISQUOTING INFORMATION UNTIL YOU ARE BANISHED AND THEN YOU CHOOSE ANOTHER ONE. YOUR INTENTION IS TO HAVE THE GOVERNMENT BAN THE BREEDING OF CAVALIERS, AND I REALLY DO THINK YOU MAY ACHIEVE IT. It's always been too easy to sit on the sidelines and ridicule those doing the work, without contributing one iota to it. It's easy to criticise, Bet, but it is more difficult to do it - and do it right. I don't see any evidence anywhere that you have done anything good for the breed at all. All you do is try to bring it down. Incidentally, you didn't answer my post, all you did s misquote me. Not good enough, try to bring a modicom of commonsense and worthwhile information to the discussion, will you?? The "latest news" is either the old news rehashed to suit your machievellian design, or more up to date news, skewed your way. Yep, Delcara is correct, we have been around the SM mulberry bush so many times that many of us are giddy. Bottom line is that no one has much idea why SM happens, no one has much idea how to prevent it, breeders are doing all they can to provide dogs for scanning so that the way forward may be clearer - at their expense. People like Bet Hargraves sit on the sidelines, contribute nothing, but snivel and complain. Jaxxs Buddy Realistically, consider the expense. Breeders in Sydney can take advantage of the scanner which the Cavalier breeders obtained so dogs in Aus could be scanned (Please note, Bet Hargraves, feel free to contribute some funds towards the purchase of the next one? They aren't cheap, and as you seem to have so much to say, I am sure you would like to help us out here. We'd all be grateful.). However, for anyone not near Sydney, you can say min of $1500, max of $2000. Use $2000 as the figure - pretty well everyone charges about $1400, getting yourself and dog to Sydney, accommodation, blah blah. $2000. So $4000 to scan the parents. 4 pups, wait until they are 2.5 yrs, scan them, $8000. So you have coughed up $12000 just in scans. Looks good - except - if as LizT says, scans dont indicate anything. $12,000 is a lot of money to spend - and still not be able to guarantee that if you breed the parents, or the pups, they will not throw SM. You couldn't even guarantee that the pups would continue to be A past 2.5 years. And you are currently paying to have all you dogs heart scanned annually by a specialist cardiologist. You have had the patellas of the parents checked, and x rayed if your vet wasn't 100% confident with his examination. This is a minority disease in this country amongst registered cavaliers. Yes, it does crop up occasionally, but so does mega oesophagus, non hereditary heart murmurs, leukemia, and auto immune diseases which have no hereditary component. Now, Bet, you can scuttle whereever you wish, and tell everyone and anyone you like that I am against MRI-ing. Good luck to you. As this was brought to the public domain, I think it is much better if "the public" and dog owners are given correct information.

Government can ban the sale of pups from pet shops. steve Large shops source from puppy farms. That is the only way they can keep an constant supply of pups. 3 times purchase price for shops in busy shopping centres. 2 times purchase price in smaller centres. Small independent stores double the purchase price. If the pup has been there too long, price will reduce. Sllight difference between pure and x bred dogs, but that is the rule of thumb Don't believe me? ir's easy to find out. Same way you would find out what any store pays for anything. You will find I am correct. None of this is important, if RSPCA continues to push to ban puppy farms, the gov MAY ban the sale of pups from pet shops. Only way to do it. Without pet shops, half or more than half of puppy farms trade would disappear and if they were unprofitable, they would close. They are businesses, NOT dog lovers Nothing will happen because the government will not grasp the nettle and ban the sales of pups in pet shops. Neither will the RSPCA push for it.