Jed

Telida Whippets, I meant to write this anyway but you gave me the lead, so these are all replies to you Are you sure? Are you quite sure that the dogs of 150 years ago were all longer in the muzzles than the ones today? Are you sure that pekes have health problems? What are they? Why do you think that? Is there evidence? Not a couple, a lot. I would think at least 20% to bin a breed. Is that fair? Telida Whippets And I see quite a few which look dodgy - but I do not know that they are unhealthy. All the bulldogs I see are running around and look fine. Must admit I dont see many dogs rasping for breath at rest. And I do think GSDs look dodgy - specially the ones with the humpbacks, but someone, show me some proper evidence they are suffering. They look as if they are to me, but where are the vet reports? Where is the evidence? I think any breed which has a convex spine is dodgy. I know the convexity conveys more strength, but it looks bad to me, and I am sure they are sickly!! I would never own one. And there are a few of them. Do I know enough about GSDs to proclaim this or that one "unhealthy, suffering". No I don't, so I shut up OK, Telida Whippets, not replying to you any more. :) Yes, maybe breeders are in denial. However, I would suppose that well over 90% of breeders would be seeking to breed healthy dogs. What is the point of breeding sickly dogs, if you are a breeder? Yes, for show ring status. But the CC comes once a week, the vets bills and unhealthiness is every day - and healthy dogs win CCs too. Easier to have a healthier one I think. And I find it hard to believe that all these breeders are living with wheezing, gasping, suffering dogs. I had a good look at Bassets at a show the other day -- most of them had moderate skin folds and few of them, nothing like the dogs in PDE. I thought the basset who won crufts had a lot of skin folds, but I cannot find any veterinary notes saying those skin folds are detrimental to health -- unless they are harbouring bacteria etc. I didnt think his skin folds were deep enough, and they weren't mentioned in his fail vet report. So I was wrong about skin folds. And again, he got a good report from a specialist vet. So, what is going on? The clumber? Most parti coloured dogs can be subject to white haws, and particularly where they have white skin/hair around their eyes. If dogs were dumped for having white haws, the world would be missing quite a few dogs. I have some, and have had some with white haws. I never knew them to cause any problems, even in extremely hot and dusty conditions. And yes, I would like not to have white haws. But if the question is white haws or some other problem - wry mouth, HD, ED, flat feet, pigeon chest,long in the loin, bad angulation, give me white haws every time. The clumber was a beautiful dog. I would prefer 50 of her than 1 with good haws without her other attributes. Further, I do not believe the clumber had ectropian - according to the specialist vet report. And again, I'll go with the specialist vet. I send my dogs to a specialist vet for health checks, because he knows more. He has done at least 5 years extra study on his specialty. And think about the dogs any one of you believes are unhealthy. They are mostly dogs you have had nothing to do with, and in fact have never had a hand on. So where is the proof? With pekingese - I have no idea whether they are unhealthy or not - I knew one well a long time ago, and she was as healthy as a horse. The show ones I see at shows and at home look pretty normal too. Everyone on dol who has pekes thinks they are ok too. So, where are the unhealthy ones? Where is the documented evidence? The newspapers convinced the public that pitbulls would bite anything, anytime, anywhere. Everyone believed them, although there was no evidence. So the government banned them. And dog bite stats have risen, not fallen. Despite every dog which bites subsequently being labelled a "pit bull". There is evidence that docking does not cause pain to neonates, something that every breeder of docked breeds knows, but the general public does not believe that, because the TV told them otherwise. Again, the newspapers convinced the public that purebred dogs are unhealthy and people believe it. Not me. I want to see the evidence. Numbers in each breed, and the idiopathic conditions they suffer from. In Cavaliers, I have never seen SM, all my cavs die at around 14, and yes, one did have MVD and she died at 14 too. My 9 year old dog has a murmur, but the specialist thinks it was brought on the stress of the fire. But, I must be lying, because so many cavs have MVD, and the extrapolated figures for SM in Cavaliers are supposed to be 70%. And yes, that is only one small kennel. But my friends say the same. So, are we all in denial? I don't think so. In some breeds, I think there is a fine line between good and sick. We need more facts and figures, not just "we think" ;"he said"; "I saw". before we go about ridding ourselves of those unhealthy purebred dogs. Ingrid Newkirk And she began in 1988, we still haven't begun. What can be wrong with us? No wonder they are winning. You've lost your docked dogs, you've lost pit bulls, dog bites are up, you are about to lose purebred dogs. And please don't think I am telling anyone what to do. I would like everyone to think about breeds they feel are unhealthy, and then tell themselves why they think that, and whether there is any evidence? And if you still think they should have the chop, well, that's ok too. Same as the pekes. There doesn't seem to be any evidence (I looked). Not over the entire breed. Telida, I think you said something similar about BSL - fact is, it is too late, no matter what we do, the breeds are gone. First something with small numbers, like the peke, and then... Oh, hell what am I saying? I said this 6 years ago, I am not saying it again.

Spokesman for the pekingese club Quote Telida Whippets What he means is that once you cross with something else, you get extras as well as the long muzzle. Even in a breed - without going outside the breed, if you want some feature, you may have to sacrifice something else, so you think long and hard. No one has any idea what crossing pekes will do in terms of conformation and health. And the most worrisome thing? Where is any evidence at all that some of these dogs are suffering? AR says they are, the breeders say they are not. Who is right? Where are copious vet reports on the entire breed, not reports on a few dog. Don't shout at me, think about it. Telida Whippets I would never have thought you would worry about it being personalized, you said it was what you thought, how is that not personal? I am sorry if you thought it was a low blow - I was simply replying to what I have always taken as your point of view. I believed that BSL and docking were the beginning of the holocaust of purebred dogs, brought on by Animal Rights, PeTa et al. I now believe that we are into phase 2, and the end is coming. Whether the actions of the exhibitors make it worse or not is a moot point. I actually don't think it could get much worse. I think the KC and CCs totally misjudged the opposition to begin with. As they have always misjudged it. For anyone who doesn't believes that, look at the AR sites. You don't believe the sky is falling. I don't know, I think it has fallen to some degree already. Each of those moves has reduced still further purebred breeders. There are hardly enough to make a dint in an opposing view. But I can't understand why you would be offended. Anyhow, my apologies for offending you, it was not my intention.

Who's lynching whom? All I'm saying is the sky will not fall. It depends on your definition of the sky falling, I suppose. The sky has fallen on some previously docked breeds with breeders walking away. One of the reasons the breeder numbers of the ANKC has fallen to around 4000 is because those breeders exited. In some docked breeds, there is a waiting list of around 2 years, and prices have doubled, and continue to rise. I suppose if you are a buyer, the sky has fallen. If you are a breed fancier, the sky has fallen, as you view the dwindling of the gene pool, and the dearth of quality dogs. If you are a breeder, the sky is golden when you count your profits I suppose if you are the ANKC, getting less membership, the sky has drooped a bit. The sky didn't fall when BSL happened either, unless you happened to be caught up in it, although you and your dog had done nothing wrong. Then the sky fell on you big time. But I guess if the sky hasn't fallen on you personally, TW, the sky hasn't fallen at all. Judging by the high profile and active people involved with the alliance, I expect many interesting things will happen. Will the sky fall? Have to wait and see. Oh, and there is a vet's report from a specialist vet on the 'net which contradicts the opinion of the feline vet used by the KC to vet check and fail the Basset Hound at Crufts. Gets interestinger and interestinger!!

This is how the paper reported it So, he is not allowed ever to own a dog or have a dog under his control. If there is a problem, I would phone the RSPCA, or the police and ask them for guidance, and I would definitely report him if he is breaching the conditions of sentencing.

LizT, photos of the cavs must be after 1920s, as there were no cavs before that. Some Charlies looked like cavs though

I would hope that dogsnsw has a submission which will exlude dogsnsw members, who already operate under a coe, who already pay registration fees to dogsnsw and who generally provide the better socialised dogs, FEWER of whom fetch up in the pound, and who are easier to rehome from the pound. We have had similar here, and dogsqld and members have responded to a questionaire, and written submissions. We shall see what happens there, but if there is yet another registration fee, the 4000 ANKC breeders will be further reduced. Qld government is notorious for licensing anything and everything as a money raiser. We can only hope the LNP comes to power and decides they wont license dog breeders. They aren't as keen on licensing as the Labour party NZ is looking better and better, earthquakes and all. DogsNSw needs to make a submission, dogsnsw members need to make submission, opposition to this should be shown.

The numbers don't seem to follow a chronological order. Maybe a boxer person will know more. FLOCK ST SALVATOR No.14 Dog - March 1894 (Light Fawn) Sire - Box St Salvator No.59 (Light Fawn) Dam - Mary von Nymphenburg No.65 I am not really sure, but I wonder if it was their stud book number - each dog would have been c atalogued as he applied, so the numbers would not be in dob order, or any particular order. Probably says somewhere

Show dogs still run around, but they aren't running though rough scrub etc.as otherwise might. And they just love the extra handling and attention the grooming brings.

I think the plethora of fantastic products to enhance dogs' coats make a huge difference. Differences in early photos and photos of dogs now show more profilic coat, and better groomed coat. If you compare modern Asian breeds' coats with the coats of the early different, they wouldn't be so different. Pekes get the allover hair look by grooming and product. English setter - cocker - are now regularly groomed, and probably living where there are no prickles, rough burrs, or brush to catch the coat on, so the coat is not constantly being pulled out. They are wearing snoods when eating, and they are wearing product which reduces knots, so much less hair is being pulled out. Years ago when we showed long haired dacshunds - they were treated as pets. They were groomed with brushes and combs, and they were washed with a bar of dog soap, Sunlight soap, or, for special occasions, Johnsons Baby Shampoo. Rumour had it that baby shampoo was not good for them, and it was expensive and difficult to find, so show dogs were mostly washed with soap. There were no conditioners, but they might have had a vinegar rinse. Or perhaps an olive oil and raw egg treatment before the bath. They were then allowed to dry naturally. No blow driers, no coat controllers, no product, no drying coats. You simply hoped they wouldn't roll in anything too bad before the show. The CCCQ showgrounds, entry off Costin St, was totally dirt floored. The benches were timber, liberally coated with dust from show to show. You took towels to sit the dog on, but he was pretty dirty by the end of the day. The dog got out of the car, and walked into vetting, and then into the show area. At aggie shows, there were no "dog facilites", so you tied up the dog to whatever you could find, or hung onto the lead all day. Early morning starts at ag shows meant a dog with wet feathers into the ring, because he had walked through the long dewy grass of the showgounds. - or you carried him. Difficult if you had 4 entries. But - no problem. Every other dog was in exactly the same position, so it was a level playing field. Now, there are carriers and trolleys, and all manner of ways to keep the dog clean and dry. Plus endless product to help the exhibitor, and to keep the coat in great condition. Angeluca, once a cocker in "full show coat" has run through a few paddocks and a bit of bush, his coat begins to look like those early cockers. I guess Afghans would be the same? Coat never lasts in rough conditions Same with show horses, if the mane and tail are not cared for on a show horse, they soon disappear.

I'm having the same problem as Anne. Try the view by page instead of view all link I first posted. There are 50 pages http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v485/Pietoro/Dog%20Breed%20Historical%20Pictures/?start=0 That's done it! Thanks. No Cavaliers. I'm sure I saw a Cav or perhaps it was just a KC? YES! Found on page 2 bottom middle. The dog on the tea chest (?) looks very King Charles as does the Black and Tan, but...the Blenheim opposite the blk & tan is very Cavalier in type. Again, a pencil sketch so left to interpretation. Would make a lovely print. :) There were no Cavalier King Charles Spaniels until 1928 - there was simply no breed. There are lots of King Charles Spaniels in those photos

ANKC standard does allow haw. This is the relevant sentence from the standard. I would imagine the standards would be the same. The other point I have noticed is that people on this forum are saying haws = entropian. Entropion is the inversion, or the rolling inward, of all or part of the margin of an eyelid, which causes the hair-bearing part of the eyelid to come into contact with and irritate the conjunctival and corneal surfaces. Entropion can be congenital or acquired. The clinical signs of entropion in dogs vary, depending upon the cause of the condition, and can range from mild to very severe. The haws are the part around the actual eyeball. Eyelids. IN most dog breeds they are dark coloured, and white haws are a fault in some breeds, but not a terribly big one. With the Clumber, it is acceptable to have some haw showing. And yes, white haws can do red in heat or dust, which is why they are a small fault in some breeds. I do not know whether the dog has entropian or not, althought if it does, it is difficult to spot in photos or the video. Not much use speculating. I believe in they're talking about ectropian in the Clumber, rather than entropian. Ectropian is the reverse, where the lower lid sags down excessively. Also, the haws are referring to the third eyelid, which is different to the conjunctiva. And conjunctivitis means the conjunctiva are inflamed, not just red :) I didn't see or hear any of the original stuff about the clumber. People here were discussing entropian and haws. I had no idea whether the dog was supposed to have entropian, or ectropian. In the video the haws were red, I could not see any inflammation. But the vet was on the spot. Who knows? Presumably he saw something.

That is a bit ambiguous, can you clarify please? I think plenty care.

Poppycock. Please provide any evidence that the 'Pekinese' is historically consistent. Consider Ming Dynasty sculptures (one inserted below). I wouldn't say that dog looks like Palacegarden Malachy or Palacegarden Bianca. The Chinese were not 'enlightened' dog breeders. They didn't keep pedigrees, and historically, employed cross breeding and in some eras, physical manipulation (at the end of the Chinese Empire, message, bashing puppies faces, and a way of feeding puppies from the inside of a stretched pig skin in a way that forced them to press their soft face bones against the surface for hours each day) to try and achieve the conformation that was in style in the court of the time. The same court routinely practiced foot binding on women. You cannot expect the looks of court dogs to come true when they were brought to the west because their facial structure was not genetic. The Lion Dog 'breed' was originally supposed to resemble Buddha's Lion. Small hitch, the people involved had never seen a lion. Unfortunately, they didn't have cameras at the time, so we can't develop a good visual history for the Lion Dog. The Dowager 'Empress' -- who is routinely quoted in descriptions of Palace Pekes, was a backwards, power-hungry individual who ended up as Empress only because she (as wife #3, not of royal blood) bore the Emperor a son. According to Coren, her legitimacy was questionable, and she used the Lion Dogs as a means of raising her association with Buddha . . . and hence, power. Quoting her is about like quoting Hitler to define the standard for the GSD. The western breed . . . which the Chinese would not have called the Pekinese (Peking is now called Bei Jing, and it was not always the Imperial seat of power) is a breed created in the late 19th/ early 20th century by people who came into possession of dogs taken from the crumbling remains of the Chinese Empire. Some Peke breeders believe there was cross breeding with other Asiatic breeds after the Peke came to the west (see the Happa Dog article I posted earlier). Historical photos show of the breed in the west show progressively denser coats and shorter muzzles. For a good description from a professional historian see See Ch 16 of Coren, Stanley (2002) The Pawprints of History, The Free Press. Note also the Australian standard for the Peke, copied from the UK KC revised standard of 2008. (The US standard has not incorporated the revisions, which were introduced to avoid extreme and unhealthy conformation). Head fairly large, proportionately wider than deep. Skull moderately broad, wide and flat between ears, not domed, wide between eyes. Nose not too short, broad, nostrils large and open. A slight wrinkle, preferably broken, may extend from the cheeks to the bridge of the nose in a wide inverted V. This must never adversely affect or obscure eyes or nose. Pinched nostrils and heavy over-nose wrinkles are unacceptable and should be heavily penalised. Muzzle must be evident, but may be relatively short and wide. Firm underjaw. Lips not obscuring a well defined chin. Defined stop. Black pigment essential on nose, lips and eye rims. 'not too short' is subject to interpretation . . . but there's no question that it was added to the standard to encourage breeders to breed away from flat faced, brachycephalic dogs. The equivalent move has not been made in the US. In my book, that's a shame. p.s. I don't mind the heat and am not avoiding the kitchen. But sometimes (eg, when it's time to mow, fertilize, thin, prune, or harvest the vineyard, or when I decide to travel) DOL is not my highest priority. p.p.s. I am not highly qualified to speak on Chinese dog breeding practices over the last 1000+ yrs, but I'll bet my qualifications outrank most of the people who have attacked me. My mother's side of the family was involved in the China trade and knew the people who imported the early 'Pekinese'. My father was born in China in 1918. My paternal grandparents left China in 1950. I majored in Asian studies in a leading US university and at one point spoke passable 'Mandarin' and knew 5000+ characters. I've taken several university level courses in Chinese history. p.p.p.s. my first post on Malachy's victory began with a statement saying that I'm not big on coated breeds. I am also prejudiced against what I call 'barbie dogs'. No secret, I don't view the show ring as a good way to judge a dog's value and I detest breeding for charismatic image. I'd rather see health and temperament (including working ability if the breed still has 'work') than bench appeal used as a basis for what dog to put over what bitch. IF YOU ARE GOING TO ATTACK ME, PLEASE BE AS OPEN ABOUT YOUR VALUES AS I HAVE BEEN. As for being accused of being a broken record . . . yup, that's what happens when you take a consistent position. When attacked, you're either a broken record, or you flip-flop. If you check my full record of postings, you'll find I am well above average for providing documentation for statements I make and making it clear when I am venturing opinions as opposed to presenting what appear to be facts. AND I STILL HAVEN'T GOTTEN ANY EXPLANATION FOR WHY I HAVE BEEN DQ'D FROM THE BREEDERS FORUM. sandgrubber, I couldn't be bothered reading all that. Your problem is that you have absolutely no understanding of a standard, it's purpose or how it works in a basic way. If you do have any understanding, you have always failed to show it here. I have no idea how anyone can breed dogs without understanding the standard. If you understand your own standard, presumably you have the capacity to understand other standards, so the only reason you are continuing your disagreeableness is because you want to. I don't own pekingese, never have. It annoys me that you complain about them, without knowing anything about them as part of some sort of purebred bash you are on. I have a basic understanding of the breed, and I do understand the standard. I couldn't be arsed trolling the internet for photos of pekingeses to drag out for you. Added to which, there no photos of pekingese because pekingese were invented before cameras. There are paintings and drawings, whether they are stylised or not, I have no idea. You fail, on every level, to understand what I am saying so there is no point in continuing any discussion. Go and talk to a pekingese breeder if you care so much. If you think they should resemble that statue, you go for it. This is supposed to be a purebred forum, I am over people who have no understanding rubbishing purebred dogs. No one is making you buy one, why not leave alone those who understand and appreciate the uniqueness of purebreds. Apparently if animal rights says it, it is so. That's cool, but if you want to post stuff like that, bring your proof. Vet's reports, how many unhealthy dogs, why they are unhealthy, when they changed to become unhealthy. And I have no effen idea why you were banned from the breeders' forum, nor do I care. I didn't know you were banned until you mentioned it. I suggest you ask Troy, I am not a moderator, and it has nothing to do with me. I didn't even bother to report you. And you might just consider that your consistent attitude towards purebred dogs might has encouraged some other purebred owner or breeder to report you. I am not the only purebred owner who comes here. I hardly ever come here. I am not interested in continuing any dialogue with you about the pekingese or anything else because I don't think you have the capacity to understand it. Additionally, you display a consistently nasty attitude which I couldn't be bothered with. And I don't think it matters whether breeds have changed over the years or not - as long as they are not less healthy. I don't think pekingese have - they have more coat which could be due to better product and more care taken with coat.

One of my dogs has one white haw. It is 25 degrees here now, and his haw is red. He has been running around a bit.

ANKC standard does allow haw. This is the relevant sentence from the standard. I would imagine the standards would be the same. The other point I have noticed is that people on this forum are saying haws = entropian. Entropion is the inversion, or the rolling inward, of all or part of the margin of an eyelid, which causes the hair-bearing part of the eyelid to come into contact with and irritate the conjunctival and corneal surfaces. Entropion can be congenital or acquired. The clinical signs of entropion in dogs vary, depending upon the cause of the condition, and can range from mild to very severe. The haws are the part around the actual eyeball. Eyelids. IN most dog breeds they are dark coloured, and white haws are a fault in some breeds, but not a terribly big one. With the Clumber, it is acceptable to have some haw showing. And yes, white haws can do red in heat or dust, which is why they are a small fault in some breeds. I do not know whether the dog has entropian or not, althought if it does, it is difficult to spot in photos or the video. Not much use speculating.

Leema, I think the most important thing is to see something, and say "I wont be like that". The more people who do that, the better the hobby would be, and who knows, people who are being encouraged to be bad may decide otherwise. And at least you are then at peace with yourself. :)

The owner said the temperature was over 100 degrees, which I know people who were there agreed with. And to be BOB, the dog would have been running about all day. Showdog. Who knows, there are a lot of different stories doing the rounds. Be interesting to see how the entries are next year. You don't simply enter either, you qualify. I suppose if the dog passed all the specialist testing, you would think the dog was healthy, would you not? Be a bit of a shock if he bombed out at the vet test. dog fan if you don't mind, you might check for photos yourself. There are plenty out there, some look like the modern pekingese, some don't, you can decide for yourself, and then I wont be seen to be guilty of slam dunking you. There is a big difference between good modern pekes and bad pekes of years ago though.

Sandgrubber, it bothers me that self styled purebred dog breeders cannot appreciate the diversity of purebred breeds, so criticize a perfectly good pekingese because he does not look like a Caanan dog, nor runs about like a labrador. There is a difference between a dog being unhealthy and you not liking it. Labradors would not be suitable in homes which suit a pekingese. This is the point I think is being missed. The pekingese has bred true since about the 8th century. And although you think they have changed, and indeed, they have a little, they have not changed substantially. You are welcome to your opinion, and once all dogs are the endogenous Eurodog, all the same, medium sized, long nose, prick ears, long haired and short haired, and the non shedding labradoodle, you may miss that diversity, but I think not. :laugh: Greytmate - according to the owner, the website, another exhibitor, and someone from the UK Clumber club, the Clumber has had all the appropriate tests, and has passed them. The Spotted Devil - I think you would need to read an extension of the standard. Or someone who has Clumbers may know. May be to do with the configuration of the head and forepiece, which is designed to protect the eyes when the dog is working in heavy scrub .. but that is a guess.

Thanks Leema. So, really a holistic comment? Breeding to improve the breed -- this is a new requirement which came in some years ago, direct from America, where it was invented by animal rights to curb the number of pups being bred. Just a bit of pointless history. Most breeders see what they are doing as improving the breed ....eg - someone may breed many grand champions, and see that as improving the breed, someone else may eliminate a problem in the breed, someone else may breed a line of healthy dogs of good nerve which make excellent pets. Which one is doing "more to improve the breed". I have no idea. I don't think there is any way to tighten this up, and allow people to continue to breed. Could be wrong though. And it is a hobby. Probably it should be up to each breeder. I think it is reasonable for breeders to use carriers - this fits with 'striving to improve the breed' - it is probably better to use a carrier on a clear dog to try to eliminate some other problem, or improve type. Carrier pups sold on non-breeding contracts, clears either kept for breeding or sold ditto. There is a carrier in one breed who sires excellent pups - and if your bitch needs x or y, he will give you that, and of course, you simply test the pups. Carriers don't suffer. What Mystiqueview said is very relevant too. As far as non-titled dogs are concerned ---- depends I guess. Too many answers. and again, I know what you mean. The state CCs know too. Other more specific breaches. I think that everyone and everyone who has a problem with something someone is doing should complain to the state CC. IN some states, you need to pay to complain, but I would write a letter anyhow. I do know what you are saying. Simply complain and keep complaining. Thanks for answering. I didn't think the question was off topic. But perhaps it was Edited to say Personally - the last mating I did was to an imported champion, who will go Gr Ch, but was a champion with some good specialty wins when the mating was done. The mating before that (different girl) was to a dog which had never been shown, because I thought he would add a few things to the mix. The pups weren't better from one mating or the other, either. The rule is the better the dogs, the better the pups, and that probably means champions, but some dogs don't do well in the show ring. One would hope that a breeder could tell whether the dog was any good or not without it needing to be titled. There are grand champion dogs that some breeders wouldn't go near ... and not because they are mean with money!!

That would seem more sensible. There was a time when all entries were vet checked before exhibition. I suppose 28,000 would be too many to realistically check. Maybe entries in the 15 breeds could have been checked? And perhaps vet checking them after judging makes a greater statment about the KC's committment to health?

Do you mean when this was still a purebred forum, and there were numerous pure-bred-dog breeders to give an opinion? And, when you Steve, were in favour of purebred dogs, and not mongrels? No one could be bothered any more. :laugh: If the KC wants to slam a few nails in the coffin lid, it is not for me to naysay them. When the best of breed is a crock, it doesn't say much for the dogs that best of breed beat, does it? What a joke.

If a website address was posted, there would be some chance of reply. Without any reference, the implication is that ALL breeders do what Leema complained about.

I am still awaiting a reply from you. I am waiting for you to provide more information on your assertions above. Thank you Come on Leema, dont keep Jed waiting any longer. Put up the names and addresses so that we can organise a midnight raid, drag them out of bed and set them to work in all the shelters on poo patrol for 6 months at a stretch. Who needs to wait around for the justice system ... way to slow ... the animal liberationists are experts at doing midnight raids with bolt cutters, so we could ask them to lend a hand I s'pose. Souff Belittle if you must Souff. I don't care much. However, I don't think anyone should be making all sweeping statements about things without some sort of explanation or evidence. Whilst I might think some of those sins could bother some one, I find it difficult to believe that someone knows about all them. I am patiently waiting for Leema to respond. And of course, ~Anne~ is correct to say Absolutely correct.So, lets give Leema time to respond. Perhaps complaints to the state CCs might be in order

Thanks for posting that Sheridan, very enjoyable. Nice to see purebred dogs showing themselves off to the public too :)

I am still awaiting a reply from you. I am waiting for you to provide more information on your assertions above. Thank you