Jed

I know of a couple of registered breeders who do not vaccinate at all. They use holistic treatments instead. (Nosodes?). Neither of them has border collies. I see your point of view, although I do not agree altogether with it. However, vaccines do a lot of damage. I don't think breeders who don't vaccinate particularly advertise the fact, so I suggest you ask around a bit. There are not a lot of breeders who use the forums on this site

I have been advised by a solicitor who deals with matters like this that my contract would stand up. If the breeder didn't tell Kassidee they wanted to use the dog pre purchase, desexing it is fair enough. I am pleased I haven't dealt with Kassidee and I hope I never shall.

Sounds like he knows there is a bitch on heat. You could try putting Vicks vapourub on his top lip 3 times a day. He wont be able to smell the girl for the vicks and may give up, but be very careful that he doesn't escape

I agree with you Liz. Notmidol From the link you gave. My buyers are aware of the conditions PRIOR to purchase, they have signed off on them. If they don't like them, they can walk away. And the conditions of my agreement do not prevent the buyers having full use and rights to the "product". What they in fact do is remind the buyer that I am interested in the welfare of the dog, and if they do not want it, I would like them to return it to me.

Whipitgood, I personally, would write to the CC and tell them what is going on. Let them decide what to do. Also, CC's tend to keep files on members, and if there are sufficient notifications, something will probably be done....maybe not about this, but about something else. At least the CC is aware

It is too difficult to set a max age. What is it for a bitch who will live to be 17 or 18? The litter number rule is probably fairer and more equitable.

Daveri No, but I do keep in touch with the new owners. Sometimes they phone me to say the dog has been desexed, sometimes I find out when I phone them. My biggest problem has not been with people breeding, it has been with people not doing as they said - or rehoming the dog to someone I wouldn't even consider. I think the rehoming contract keeps the dog safe. I try to sell to people who obviously are wanting a pet - and who are likely to give it a lifetime good home. The contract is simply a safety net, and something to make people think before they give the dog to someone else. Personally, I don't really have a problem with people breeding ---- as long as they are prepared to do the research, continue to treat the dog as a pet, and home the pups well. My problem with breeding is 40 dogs shut in a shed. This is what my contract prevents. Or, it has done so to date. I am pretty sure it would stand up in court .... but even if it didn't, it has so far worked 100% and I am happy with that.

I have an agreement with puppy buyers. This does not prevent them breeding, but does prevent them on selling or euthing the dog, or treating it badly. I have been advised by a lawyer that it would stand up in the court where small claims are heard (which is where it would be heard, because of the value of the dog) I have never had to take anyone to court, but I did threaten once to regain ownership of a dog which was being badly treated. I haven't had anyone who said they wouldn't breed, breed, except someone who bought a male, and she talked to me before doing it. I speak to new owners when their pup is about 12 months, to see if they have been desexed.

Before you even consider purchasing a pup which has been desexed as a puppy, I think you should read the literature and studies on early desexing. One of the problems is that the long bones continue to grow, which may change the angles of the hindquarters - resulting in HD, as well as other problems. Sex hormones are also growth hormones, the pup needs those hormones to grow properly. And yes, do put your question to the breeder, but if she continued to wish to desex, I would look elsewhere. Good luck

Amazing. On a similar subject ... this sounds like fiction, but is true - photos in the paper, name of the vet etc. Some years ago a little terrier type dog was hit by a train, and a rear leg was amputated by the train. He picked up the leg, and carried it home, despite being injured. He was taken to the vet, and survived, but alas, on 3 legs

A not altogether happy story, but a great ending Daisy. Thanks for sharing. I hope you have many more years together. I'll bet you were so pleased she was coming home.

I have used the lumpy bottoms from fruit cartons and rolled up towels. It is mostly necessary to put the pup away from the dam, and make him work to get back. I think I would keep an eye on your little fellow. Good luck with him.

A few points 1/ Dr McGreevy's stated aim, and his website, as well as his association with Don Burke, are not in accord with the continuation of the breeding of purebred dogs. I note that some of the statements he made have now disappeared. I personally doubt that someone studding a crossbred dog of unknown parentage and no health tests, via the web could possibly have the best interests of purebred dogs at heart. Breeders are not concerned about Dr McGreevy's interest in purebred dog health, but his previously stated agenda. 2/ Most of the research which has been successful has been largely funded by dog breeder contributions. MVD and SM in Cavaliers, and FN in cocker spaniels. In the latter breed, breeders over the world held shows, fetes, bring and buy stalls, collected donations and ran raffles to fund the research. And most breeders did submit swabs. With the SM research, in England - many many dogs are submitted for MRIs, and the bodies of many loved family dogs are submitted for further research. CCCQ donates $1 per puppy registration to UQ I believe, to fund research. No breeder has any objection to sensible study, which may provide a positive outcome, particularly with health issues. And breeders will carry the can, but they will not support someone they do not trust. 3/ Breeding for intelligence. I did try this - but found the results were very inconsistent - but as with everything - there were not enough dogs in the study to make any definite conclusions. I decided it didn't work. You can breed out narrow ear canals, but apparently can't breed in the smarts!! 4/ More research on bloat - and I would like some research to show why there was so little bloat 50 years ago, yet now it is a huge problem. What have we done? Vets blame dogs living to a greater age for the increase in cancer, but bloat affects younger dogs. There are more dogs, but 50 years ago, I never heard of a dog with bloat. So research into that, and into cancer. Are we deranging our dogs' genes with vaccines, so they are passing on a genetic predilection to these (and other problems), or are chemicals the problems - or something else? 5/ Like to see the research etc on vaccinosis verified or refuted.

"They" would have had certain knowledge of what the poor owner died from. Years ago, 3 boxers killed their female owner in the US when she tried to break up a dog fight. Probably something similar happened here. And perhaps the authorities know the cause, but they always seem very reluctant to publicise that. Perhaps they feel relations and friend of the deceased may be upset.

Some years ago, I helped man an anti BSL stall at a pet expo. I took my champion cavalier, Lennie. The other dog on the stall was a lovely female pit bull. There were no problems, the dogs interacted well together. People came to cuddle the Cavalier, or the pitbull - and the pitbull smooched up to them. "What a lovely dog, what breed is she"? "Pit bull" we would say, at which point they would practically pass out, but the pit bull was still licking them and sitting on their laps. We had a lot of doggy visitors too, and both dogs behaved with absolute decorum at all times. The big worry of the day were the 4 GSD police dogs which escaped their crates on the back of the police vehicle, and headed straight for us - mayhem on their minds ..... luckily the police collared them in time. The problem with BSL is that it encourages people to take their gentle little dogs away from a dangerous breed,when they should be avoiding any DANGEROUS DOG.

How appalling. I cannot understand how anyone could do that - and live with themselves later. Surely, wondering about the eventual fate of the dog would have been mental torment? Apparently not. Too much of the "it's only a dog" mentality I too hope he is forbidden to have another dog.

Walk away

I presume you are seeking a pet, not a show dog? The adults look like poms to me. The pups look like poms too, and the cream one is very cute. If the breeder is registered, and has shown, I see no problem. The question of whether the parents are really the parents is problematical ..... and I would say that MOSTLY the dogs advertised by registered breeders as the parents are the parents. If you buy a registered pup as a purebred pom, and it grows up to be half border collie, you have 2 avenues of redress - one is the local canine control who registered the pup, and they will take action in a case like that. Then you have redress to the civil tribunal. The question of whether the pups are to the standard is problematical -- they look ok to me - but I don't have poms. If they have a few faults, it is not the end of the world ... most pups have a few faults. Some registered breeders are dodgy, but most are not. Some are just nice honest people, with the lovely hobby of breeding dogs. And they want you to have a lovely pet that they are proud of, and which you will love for life By all means, contact the people recommended by posters here, but you may have a long wait!!

How horrible. Those poor people. And yes, lucky it wasn't a child. Totally unsocialised dogs in a new and exciting environment; and who had formed a pack. Not surprising, really.

They actually were selliing to pet shops, Christina. Many in Qld, and some puppy barns. I don't know about interstate pet shop sales. At one stage, their pups infected 4 shops on the north coast with parvo.

Re heat lamps. They are mostly used in piggeries, so a produce or agricultural business which deals with piggeries would have them. I haven't bought any for years, and they were about $60 then They can be hung from a hook placed into the ceiling in an appropriate place (ie, over the whelping box)with a light chain, and lowered or hightened by use of the chain. If the hook is secure, the bitch should not be able to damage the lamp. I must say that I think rescue's main function should be homing existing homeless dogs; not producing more when there is no knowledge of their fathers, or their health status. Most bitches can, and should be desexed if in pup, when they come into rescue.

Is Ford Kinter the same as Pet Plan, Bob? I think there may be a problem with Pet Plan. More when I know the outcome.

After bitches whelp, they release roundworm eggs - unless the research has changed since I last checked. I worm my bitches the day after they whelp, and mostly I find no worms in puppy droppings. Pups are wormed 2 weekly, and bitches are wormed just before mating.

Unfortunately, mine didn't save me from the fire, they expected me to save them. Something intrinsically wrong there!! When I lived on a property, I went into the paddock to turn the bore off ... and I saw 2 dogs about 20m away from the bore. One was, I thought, the red cattle dog from the corner, and the other was a tan dog. I spoke to them ... and then noticed that they were advancing towards me, heads and ears up, tails up, hackles up, stiff legged walk. I took another look, and realised that the red dog was much bigger than the cattle dog from the corner -- and he had a distinctly dingo look about him, and his mate, smaller, WAS a dingo. And there I was, in the middle of nowhere, no one around, and two wild looking dingoes were going to attack me. I always believed that the dingo did it - but at that moment, I was totally sure of it. There was nowhere to run, I wasn't game to turn around to find a stick ....and then, around the corner of the machinery shed, running as hard as he could, and barking very seriously, hair flying, came my golden cocker, Magnus. He had been pooching around, minding his own business, and he had seen the dogs. Uh oh, he was very brave, but I thought we would both be toast, and then I saw he was closely followed, and being overtaken by his best friend Nina the boxer. She wasn't saying anything, but she was intent on the dingoes. Seeing the force against them the dingoes turned and ran up the hill, the dogs after them - with me calling furiously. I didn't want Magnus and Nina to run to the dingo pack and be killed. Luckily, when the dingoes crossed the road, my dogs peeled off and returned. I later discovered from the neighbours that the red dog was an x bred which had mauled lots of cattle and sheep, and was known to be quite savage. Another cocker stood between my 3 year old and a death adder, and would not let the child go foward nearer to it. The urgency of the barking alerted me before any harm was done. When I was about 15, I was home alone on Saturday night. Parents were out to dinner. I went to bed, and the 4 show dacshunds were asleep on the bed. I had the "front" bedroom, and the bed was parallel to the bay window with the window box under it. This was a gabled house. All the dogs suddenly became alert, and were sitting on the bed looking the the window - 3 casement windows actually. By this time, I was terrified. A shadow appeared in the window and all 4 dogs launched themselves off the bed towards the window at the same time, barking like hounds of the Baskervilles. Naturally the would be intruder fell backwards out the window (it was not terribly high, but higher than a man). I was too traumatised to do anything, and when my parents arrived home an hour or so later, I had the quilt up to my neck, dogs gathered close - in case he came back. Police arrived, said there was a burglar in the area, and the marks of his sandshoes were in the chalky paint of the gable. They never caught him and I never went to bed with the window open again.

Interesting dogsaremyworld. When I started in cavaliers, I had a nice dog, successful in the ring. I approached a breeder who had nice stock, compatible with my dog's breeding, for a girl to show and breed with. I had bred titled dogs in a couple of other breeds over the years, I showed the breeder a photo of the dog, spoke of my previous experiences, gave a few references. All was good, we discussed the bloodlines of the girl .... and then --- some very lovely show person who did not know me, had never seen my dogs or visited my property told that breeder I was a puppy farmer. So, the breeder, and the puppy disappeared into the mist. It is very difficult to be a puppy farmer with 4 dogs!! I was so ticked off about that I never approached another breeder for a bitch. I used the 2 second rate bitches I had who were healthy as horses, and upgraded the quality I had via the dogs. It was a shame the dog didn't have a girl up to his quality - he was mostly Homerbrent, a well conformed dog, no health problems, and a tempersament to die for -- and he got his title at "good" shows - won his class 3 times at the Royal. I always grieved that he was "wasted". The dogs are not the quality I would like them to be, but they are all as healthy as can be. :laugh: So, really, maybe that was all for the best! Like you, I find it disheartening - because the dogs are still not up to speed, and now I am so concerned about health, I will not send any of them out. I used to breed cockers, so I went back to breeding them because I am not altogether happy with the quality of the Cavs. At least with cockers, I didn't have to begin at the bottom! I love to see quality dogs and I do love the cavs, but I get heaps of pleasure from the better quality dogs. The exciting challenge for me is to breed good pups, and to try to eradicate some of the faults in the parents. It seems quite non productive to me to breed for years and not have the quality you would like to breed (for Cavalier afficiondios - that would be something like Ch Maibee Make Believe or Ch Wandris Entertainer ) The cocker I bred has won quite a few groups as a pup, and I hope to show her again. A boxer that I bred is having her 4th go at winning her class at the Royal - she has done it 3 times from 3 entries, so 4 would be good. She hasn't cracked a Royal BCC yet, but we hope!! And I don't breed all that many, as the dogs are house dogs. And the cavs are letting the side down a bit. But at least I am not taking them to the vet every 10 minutes or cringing if owners of my pups ring up. They usually ring up to say Charlie is 10 now, they want another one just like him, which is fine. :) LizT, I think the reason the Cavaliers are pilloried for health problems is because the Cavalier breeders world wide endeavoured to eliminate the health problems in the breed, and consequently, most people know about health issues, where problems in other breeds were not as well publicised.