Jed

yes that seems to be the intention But I don't think it WAS the intention, to begin with. Just asking for changes to meet community and welfare expectations. That has not happened, and can not happen fast enough. There has been at least one generation of breeders since PDE, as far as average ( human) breeder span. Show ring awarded examples of poor practice are still rife and in some cases, for some breeds, going backwards. Internationaly if not nationaly. It seems international trends trickle down universaly too. Peta and the like, yeah, no pretense there on their intentions. Thing is though, So far, People still want DOGS enough that these extreme animal rights types wouldn't have a hope in hell of banning dogs. While the majority of people find value and purpose in keeping them, they haven't a hope of banning that. They are NOT the threat as long as that holds true. Poor breeding ( and husbandry) practices ARE a threat. One that gives Peta and the like any clout they have. Poor practices don't meet needs or expectations. There is no value or purpose in a poorly bred dog. Unless of course its being rewarded in the show ring, or a pet living in a home with such lowered expectations of dogs its only asked to be quiet. Diseased, crippled, unable to breathe, move freely, short lived or not bred for an ACTIVE role in Mans communities = a dog with little purpose but human vanity. Status. A cause for animal rights activists. While these types of dogs are PROMOTED in show ring results as prime examples of quality breeding they are forming expectations of the acceptable and desirable in any who don't already expect better and more. PETA stated their intention to do away with ALL companion animals well before PDE was made. In fact PETA coined the term "companion animal" because it didn't sound as "touchy feely" as "pet" and it would be easier to ban a "companion animal". So really, in light of that, they ought to be banned, ought they not? I cannot see any reason why not, after reading this. No one can justify continuing with a breed which suffers.

Gold is the most popular colour, and the pups sell quickly, or are pre-sold, so you may have a wait if you want a Golden cocker. :)

It's all academic really - they will be banned before too long.

Because there is NO proof of the cause of SM. It was believed to be syrinxes - but plenty of dogs have syrinxes and no SM> Zillions have been spend on MRI's- and the numbers affected are the same as they were 12 years ago. Scanning may be mapping the way to go to breed SM free dogs, but it is doing nothing for the current dogs. As many breeds are afflicted by this wretched disease, no one has any idea whether x-ing will improve matters or make them worse. Cavaliers, poodles etc. And people all have SM. I think finding the cause might be more productive than the scatter gun approach. The incidence in Aus is believed to be 2%. A gr.ch dog which has about 100+ progeny, has ONE pup which had SM. The dog himself is still alive at 16 and very well. Neither parent had SM. Spotted Devil - the reaction by breeders to the introduction of genes from other breeds is quite disturbing - but many do not understang genetics at all, and do not understand what has been done Boxer people are still calling boxers with the bob-tail gene Dorgis, or x breds, because they do not understand what happened. Note - I have no, and have never had any dogs with the bobtail gene so I have no personal interest.

What don't you disagree with kirty? I said a few things. Everything, or just some things in particular? I disagree that most pedigree brachy dogs are healthy. All brachy dogs have brachy syndrome. They all have some degree of airway disease. And I disagree that most breeders are putting a focus on fixing these issues. Because breeders know that if they breed a Frenchie with a longer snout, they will be laughed out of the show ring. As a vet nurse the ones you see are at the vets for a reason. The % presented here are 50% IF brachy breeds are bred according to the standard, they should have no problem - according to an experienced all breeds international judge who carefully explained the standard to me. I have been breedig dogs for better than 40 years and I very much doubt that I have enough experience or talent to interpret the standards and breed healthy dogs. So, I would never try. Some things are just too hard. Yet people who have been "in dogs" as they say, for a year or two are breeding frenchies and pugs. I have friends with (show) pugs which run around like Ferraris on speed!! Well and carefully bred by experienced breeders. Bulldogs' health has improved enormously over the past 20 years. And please remember, you can't just say "expelliamus" and fix everything in a generation. If you want long noses and use a long nosed dog - you MIGHT get some long nosed pups, but you may not - so you may have to keep some of that litter to mate to ANOTHER long nosed dog. Is the long nosed gene recessive or dominant? No one knows. And while you are doing that, some other problems may surface. Not for the faint hearted!! The other problem, of course, is obtaining a suitable dog or bitch and using it. Its not about health, it's about Animal Rights via Dr. McGreevey wanting to sound the death knell of purebred dogs, and then the 50% of brachy dogs who have problems and the 50% who have none will disappear.

Thistle the dog - there is quite a few differing opinions on CM/SM it's cause and whether MRI scans serve any purpose. Most breeders are sitting on the fence waiting for some definite outcome from 12 years research which doesn't seem to have produced anything concrete or proven. Hopefully the Griffon outcross will prove valuable.

I did not say this you quoted the wrong person Sincere apologies.

Feel free to provide proof that pedigree dog breeders are sticking their heads in the sand. The proof is in this thread, in the show ring and in vet surgery's. I could ask you to provide proof that they don't have their heads in the sand but that would achieve nothing. I am interested in solutioms not point scoring. You are taking a very combatative approach to this issue. This issue is too serious for me to play word games. I suggest you check the information going out from the state CCs - and the varied discussions on facebook will show you that breeders do not have their heads in the sand. And I also suggest that you watch carefully because some breeds will be banned in due course - and everyone will say "oh those damned breeders" but where is the proof - either way? Not all dogs are healthy, as some horses, cattle, sheep and children are not healthy no matter what tests are done. That's nature. I think the majority of breeders are trying - but it will make no difference to the eventual outcome. I'd like to see some proven figures. We were told that up to 70% of Cavaliers had CM/SM. yet a survey by the Cavalier club in Australia found that less than 2% had CM/SM. As a breeder, how do I overcome that rumour?? dog-fan Where did you get that idea? what is "ineligible to show"? If it is non-stud book, of course it is ineligible. There is not even proof that it is the breed it is stated to be. One of the reasons I breed pedigree dogs is that IT IS TOO HARD to breed decent dogs without knowing something about where they came from. I use dog X and my pups look like another breed - I use Dog y, and the pups have cow hocks and bad mouths. Because I didn't know who the grandparents were, and it turns out they were exactly the same. NO one is forced to breed pedigree dogs. It is for many people - including me - to be assured that the dog they are using is (a) purebred and (b) from parents who are of acceptable quality. I knew most of the dogs behind my dogs, and can see photos of the others. And before this comes up - plenty in the dog world, including me - use dogs which are not heavily shown or titled. However, titled dogs are more visible, and usually better quality dogs. It is the bitch's owner's choice what dog to use.

The point is that every breed standard for every breed calls for healthy dogs with no breathing/conformation problems which can do whatever their job is. Where things go wrong can be the INTERPRETATION of that standard. Dog_fan - it has nothing to do with the health or quality of purebred or otherwise dogs. The dogs will be banned in due course. Cavaliers have already been banned in Holland (too unhealthy) but supporters and the Cavalier Club managed to have the bans lifted so next time there is a ban, AR will ensure there is no so much support. It should amaze everyone that governments, university departments etc are interested in interfering in the breeding of dogs - yet allow thousands to be bred in poor conditions with poor health in puppy farms - proving that they don't really care, they are being pushed in these decisions. 16% in a survey is not too many. moosemum - the point of the pedigree is so the breeder can see the ancestors - if I know the mother and father and grandparents had BOAS, I can breed away from it - or I can breed for better layback of shoulder that the grandfather had. Perhaps I will use a cousin with the same good layback. Without knowing the ancestors, it's all shooting blind. If I don't have any names, I can't do much except cross my fingers. That is the purpose of the pedigree - and the only valid purpose. Breeders are not forced to take notice of it, but it is a very useful tool.

Maybe worth checking out the Vizla Club in Vic. They know of litters from reputable breeders, and often know of young dogs (not puppies) seeking homes. Past the feral puppy stage makes life simpler GSP probably has the same service but I am not aware of them.

If you are a vet nurse, you would see a great many suffering brachy dogs. How do you know they are pedigree? Do the owners produce the papers for the surgery to see? The dogs which are fine are at home; but they are not adding to the big picture so the only dogs which vets and vet nurses see are the sicko ones. I do think we need some proof of all of this - you see a small part and so do I. I think we could do more for breeders, so they could understand how to breed to the standard to eradicate these problems at mating. After that it is too late.

What don't you disagree with kirty? I said a few things. Everything, or just some things in particular? I disagree that most pedigree brachy dogs are healthy. All brachy dogs have brachy syndrome. They all have some degree of airway disease. And I disagree that most breeders are putting a focus on fixing these issues. Because breeders know that if they breed a Frenchie with a longer snout, they will be laughed out of the show ring. Please cite scientific studies which prove this?

Quite a lot of individuals in brachy breeds are fine. I don't think words such as "many", "prone" etc are scientific. Show us numbers, show us percentages - give us some meat - don't just rave on about general unhealthiness. None is this is about fixing anything, it's about removing pets. You may not believe it - just keep watching. ANKC is continually giving $$ for research into health problems. Sydney Uni got over 300 grand for various research. Yes, judges need to be on the job, and award the right type of dogs, not the ones they now award. The Judge at Toowoomba royal put down Cavaliers which were the correct size according to the standard - because they were "too small" in favour of larger than standard. Here are some healthy little dudes - there are plenty of them out there, but bad news sells more papers and furthers animal rights' aims. https://www.facebook.com/brenda.oades/videos/110010752372247/ Thistle the Dog Well, that is uber frightening. The cause of CM/SM is totally unknown and now there is some doubt that it is even hereditary, as 12 years of MRIs have not brought any answers. And people can have CM/SM too. It can regress at any time too, without medication. Be interesting to see whether this produces dogs without CM/SM.

What don't you disagree with kirty? I said a few things. Everything, or just some things in particular?

I am not surprised about the news that some brachy dogs have issues. French bulldogs, bostons, pugs are now the flavour of the month, and some of the people who are breeding them have no idea what a standard is, never mind how to read or understand it, so they are breeding with dogs with problems, and carrying on with the problems. If you breed two dogs with tiny nostrils, you exacerbate the problem. And these days, there are people with no understanding of conformation or problems. I have a nice stud dog with a long soft palate -- he has never been in trouble from it, and he has some other desirable attributes, so I will keep using him -- but I ensure that I have my bitch pups examined by a vet, and never breed with any with long palates. Sensible, yes? But not everyone knows how to prevent problems, or even what the problem is. Puppy buyers would never know, so who cares? ME - I care. Because of the good of the dog, and because every buyer is entitled to a dog as healthy as I can made it. I think the majority of purebred dogs are healthy with no problems - but some are not. I have no idea how to fix this - and indeed I think dogs are pretty well done anyhow, they will soon be banned; or people like Paul McGreevy will be overseeing breeding programs, which is the same thing. But I think if only people who had a passion for their breed and integrity bred dogs, they would do well. In years past, things went wrong, but were put right within a few years. This may happen again, but there are now many people who know too much to accept help from experienced breeders. Edited to say : If I sell a pup which is not a Crufts prospect, but who has a lovely nature and is healthy, his owners are very happy, and when he dies in his teens, they are still happy. I will sacrifice outstanding show successes for health - but try to get both. Indeed it is pleasing to see one from a litter 6 months ago with 50 points in the hands of a new owner who had never even been to a show.

No If you feel like it you could offer a replacement free or half price - but ensure they know that you take no responsibility.

Vaccination is dangerous for foetuses. There is vast evidence that 3 yearly vaccines are the most effective preventative. Do nothing, she is covered. Check the AVA Vaccination recommendation and print out a copy for your vet who is way behind the times Good luck with your pups.

Hope those reports continue on to tell the public that buying from a proper registered breeder who understands and abides by the standard produces no tiny nostrils or soft palate problems. These reports will continue until those breeds are eliminated. At that time, the animal rights machine will move to others.

This treatment seems to have been used by lots worldwide - and to have worked. Am not sure if this is what you are looking for, but it may be worth reading. http://www.bavariasboxers.com/cancer.htm May also be worth googling "cansema". This is available as a salve or a medicine. The treatment seems ok but sometimes the people selling it are dodgy. A vet here sells it, and quite a few people I know have had good experiences. Good luck - I hope she has a long and happy life.

What an excellent- and correct post. Pound and rescue fees are far too high. People often surrender their dogs because they cannot afford whatever.

The more it changes the more it stays the same. IMHO a whole new staff who actually like animals and had some common sense should have been appointed. Doesn't sound good to me. Oh - edited to say - a friend walks dogs for the RSPCA. They go out together, as it is supposed to be enjoyable for the dogs and a social outing with other dogs - training is done at other times.

Well done Hobbes - we've known this pit bull so long he is part of the family - didn't know he was such a tough old fellow though. Marvellous to hear he has done so well. He's lucky to have a such a great owner too :) Best wishes Hobbes - just keep on keeping on.

Once, Australians took dogs everywhere, except maybe into the butchers and the cafe. The dogs were used to this and there were no problems. Now dogs are allowed in very few places. Take a dog somewhere new with strange sights and smells, and lots of people - for the very first time - he becomes overwhelmed and he nips someone. And the problem? Dogs aren't allowed to go anywhere much and now few dogs are social enough to cope. I don't think the child did anything. I think it was simply a pet dog who didn't go to places like that who was overwhelmed. Not the owner's fault, not the child's fault - the fault of the situation.

Seems as if it needs closing - not enough care. Seems to me that a larger dog jumped on Wags. Terrible thing to happen. Guy should not be in charge of animals.

The original purpose for which the dog was bred determines, to a large extent the temperament and character of the dog - and that is what I - and many others - like. I have 3 breeds - I like cockers - they have soft mouths which is important, and they were bred to stay close, so if I am walking or riding, the dog is right there, not fossicking about miles away. A cocker's nose may lead him a little way from his owner but not too far. Cavaliers - sporting spaniels, and the smallest of the spaniels. A great lap dog, but with a bit of get up and go - happy to run about the paddocks, but very companionable and great as a foot or lap warmer. easy to pick up, but big enough to run around. Boxers - companion/guard dog. Again, a dog which is not far away if you are riding or walking (or ought not to be) which is friendly and companionable, but will stand up and guard if necessary without being a driven biting barking maniac. A boxer is a friend to your friends, and a nasty foe to your foes - and he will change without any commands. A trustworthy dog with kids and friends, a dog which may go his whole life without raising his lip, and who doesn't bark all the time. I like a guard dog, but am too lazy for a dog with a lot of drive, so a boxer suits me well ... and people are not frightened of them, as they can be of other breeds. People should buy their dogs on the character of the dog. Many do not. When people come here to buy a dog, I make sure they know what the dog was meant to do, and how he will behave, if this is the first of the breed they have had. There are many breeds I love - but alas, don't have enough time to own them all. I love the look of some dogs, but not their personalities. I think a foxie is about the nicest dog I've ever seen, but I know if I owned one, I'd probably kill it within the first 20 seconds!!