Jed

There seems to be more to this tale than has been published -- apparently the entire story is to surface soon and the RSPCA has been instructed to return the dog -- which they had previously failed to do. If you google Thistle, there are links to the higher court decisions. I have read them, but have now lost them

As far as I am aware the origin of pound animals has already been proven, via many studies available on the net including those by the RSPCA, UQ etc. I agree with the remainder of your post.

Corvus Do you have any basis for making that statement? Any proof? Perhaps management and "scientists" at the RSPCA have no idea what is happening However, not being privy to the upper echelon of the RSPCA, I can only judge their intentions by their stated aims - on their sites, on their printed matter, and on how they deal with pets particularly dogs. Thinking there is NO problem is an exercise of head in the sand. AR now is very vocal on various sites - about banning pet ownership, banning breeders, etc etc etc - and the carriage horses in Melbourne are also a focus of their attention. The RSPCA committee was once a stronghold of AR - whether it still is, I have no idea but I suspect so.

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There is "proof" of a lot of things that aren't strictly true (if you were in the US and had to listen to the Republican Convention garbage, you'd find lots to support that assertion). In most of the assertions above, I'd expect the devil is in the details . . . where double blind studies were done with adequate sample sizes and no obvious sampling bias, my guess is results are not strong...unless some treatment is obviously excessive (eg., vaccinating much more frequently than once a year). I think the stats are pretty clear that Cavaliers are genetically inclined to heart problems. I don't support mandatory desexing or over-vacciating. But no point to denying and working to correct genetic problems. Some breeders are doing this . . . it's good if they make it clear, and provide information along with the KC pedigree that show the soundness of their lines through testing, test results, and longevity records. One thing you can say about purebreds . . . they have a pedigree that can be followed. BYB, petshop, and designer dogs seldom do. Use that pedigree to breed for health . . . and to demonstrate you are doing so. Sorry, not sure where you have been recently, but all the things mentioned are true. Check out J, Dodds, C. McDriscoll, and B. Rogers for more information. Studies from the Irish Veterinary College, but mostly Purdue have proven that raw is beneficial to Cavalier hearts. I am not repeating what I said previously - the point of this post was to illustrate that many GP vets are not up with latest trends, so are advising things which cause problems. If you disbelieve what I said, go and do your own research. I also think you have misread my post. And no one is arguing that there is a hereditary component in MVD in Cavaliers. If some researcher could only find what it is, our problems would be less. However, ongoing research gives us some ameliorating influences, it is up to us to use them.

Clare, thank you for posting to clarify your position. You are right that the first thing for any academic paper, is to define the terms which will be used. And it is customary to link those terms/definitions with what is commonly used in that particular field of study. You appear to be using 'caretakership' to cover whatever someone who has an animal in their care (for whatever reason) does, to care for that animal's health & welfare. However, in another field, the legal system, the terms used for 'pets' have huge significance in what determines who has the power to intervene in their care. Read the link to the article by the counsel for the US Animal Health Institute which is endorsed by the American Veterinary Medicine Association. Any terms that appear to leap over 'ownership' raise alarm bells for both pet owners & veterinarians. Which has happened in this thread. (BTW I have no problem with the term 'companion dog' to describe the role that dog plays in people's lives. It's on a par with 'working dog' IMO. It's benign in suggesting anything about 'ownership' or 'guardianship' or 'caretakership'.) I'd say (just my opinion) that an academic survey which is looking at the relationship of people with their pet dogs, cannot overlook the fact that a significant part of that relationship is how the person sees they 'own' that dog. With a huge sense of personal responsibility coming from that. So how the terms are defined in the legal process are of great significance to pet dog owners. While 'caretakership' in one academic discipline, might just be concerned with actual caring actions.... in the legal system, it can say something else of great importance about the relationship between pets & people. Best wishes with your study. Excellent point. Certainly many people would see themselves as caretakers AND owners in the sense that they both own and care for their pets, but the terminology here is important because, as we have seen, when viewed through the perspective of animal rights, the term has a completely different implication, given the long term plan for PETA is the elimination of all human-animal relationships it is no real surprise that people here are loathe to associate themselves with it. I'm not really sure why the term pet has gone out of fashion, I think the term companion animal originally was coined to differentiate a pet from a working animal or livestock, probably as mita says, for legal reasons and to perhaps give them more weight/value. And certainly it is easy to see how the term caretaker has come about as not all people who care for animals are the owners, for example agistment and kennel owners care for animals and have obligations under the law regarding that so that is why the term more broadly applies to those who care for animals and is appropriate in an academic context, doesn't negate the social and philosophical context though. Might be easier to just chuck in every term and cover all bases although it's not very scientific :laugh: This is why "companion animal" has crept into the language. There is NO other reason. Academics and pseudo academics use it because it sounds more learned!! It was coined by Ingrid Newkirk the president of PETA as the reference above. And you will find the words began to be used in the 90s

If they just wanted to stop greyhound racing it wouldn't be this detailed. My thoughts are perhaps they intend wiping out greyhounds - and anything which chases anything else. ie, lure coursing. The above is pure animal rights speak. Am I wrong? Lure coursing bans are an additional problem now.

Your argument is spurious Lisa CC. The survey was not for pedigree dogs alone. It was for "companion animals" and their "caretakers", both of which words were coined by Peta to make animals more of a laboratory subject and less of a pet. I will not undertake any survey on "companion animals". These are buzz words now used exclusively in university papers - and all aiding Peta's intentions.

Haredown Whippets Curious as to what greyhound owners fed pre-kibble? I know bread and milk was popular; and baked rusk thingies - but what else? Vets recommend dry food because it is too difficult and time consuming to explain feeding to clients - much easier and more effective to say "look, this will work, here's a bag". I get that. However, when the 15 month old dog has continuing ear problems and recurring serious mouth ulcers - and the vet fails to either find the cause or cure the problem, I do wish they had stuck to the recommended diet, or not come to me with the problem.

Different experiences lead to different outcomes and expectations, Gruff. Not everyone has to agree. :)

/End thread haha Ok, so stop rewarding breeding for exaggeration. It's obviously rewarded somehow for breeders to move in that direction. Scootaloo that is exactly the sort of response that leaves Jo public to disregard registered breeders. I'm not here with any particular agenda. I just want to promote deep and thoughtful discussion of pros and cons. I'm not going to dismiss what other people are saying. I may even learn things. If pedigree breeders know the problems they need to be seen to be working towards rectifying them. Not bitching backstabbing and poking fun at people with other ideas Have you been to many dog shows? Do you exhibit? Do you understand a standard and how it relates to the dogs in question? What makes you believe that pedigree breeders do not know the problems? What makes you think they are not working towards eradicating them? Eradicating problems is not simply a matter of waving your wand about and crying "expelliamus". It is about identifying the problem, identifying the means of fixing it and implementing that. In the first cross, you may have no success. So - back to the drawing board - it may take 4 tries and 4 different dogs to get any success at all. And while people not involved think nothing is being done quite a lot is being done, but because of the nature of the beast it isn't instaneous. If breeders breed to the standard, things cannot go very wrong - alas, breeding what you want, and have it actually happen in the whelping box are not quite the same. I would not be at all interested in breeding dogs without some sort of standard as a blueprint - how easy it would be to go horribly wrong and cause all sorts of disasters - and not know for 10 years. Bulldogs - in the 70s, they did not whelp normally. In the following decades, things were improved and now most do whelp normally. But non-bulldog breeders don't believe that.

One of the biggest barriers to dogs being accepted in rental and high density accommodation is the perceived noise problem. To the extent that barking is genetic, it would be great to see breeders selecting against this trait. In effect, producing an "urban" dog; one who's behaviour would more closely match the requirements of a good pet. Some PUREBRED dogs do not bark very much. The answer to keeping landlords happy is to purchase one of these breeds. Yes breeders can breed away from barking - and many do - but it can be an individual thing ..... so much better for a prospective owner to research the breeds which do not bark a lot. There is a wide choice from Pekingese to Great Dane. And many between. Watchers and guarders bark a great deal - so do some herders

Ah Pauline Bennett. Was she not the one who was in favour of anti-tail docking? Was she not the one who pushed that point to the government and helped anti-docking legislatation? Is she not the one in favour of "caretakers" and all things PETA for companion animals? Has she not lectured on seminars on this very thing? I think so. http://www.latrobe.edu.au/she/staff/profile?uname=p2bennett

Re - food There is scientific proof from Purdue that Cavaliers fed raw food have fewer and later onset heart issues than those fed prepared food. There is evidence that early desexing causes many problems in all breeds. There is proof over-vaccinating causes many problems in all breeds. Yet the first thing the puppy buyer does is take the dog to the vet, where they are told to feed only a dry food, desex under 6 months, and vaccinate at 12 and 16 weeks with C7. In many council areas, mandatory desexing laws apply as soon as the pup changes hands -- ie, 8 to 12 weeks. Breeders are lost before they begin.

Well you all knew that "Companion Animal" instead of "Pet" would like to words like "caretakers"> Yet no one said anything in opposition.

Thank you all for illustrating my point. :laugh:

There will no bo dogs in the future. There will be some sort of mutt and x-breds for a while and then nothing. Once people figure it out, it will be too late. There will be nothing left to breed with.

OT, but I hardly think watching a 16 week old Peke pup run a little in Winter is proof it has no problems. The sheep, for instance, isn't puffing at all from that little run. The Peke is running by bunny hopping from hind legs to front, signs that it's back is too long for its leg length. Stenotic nares and, in particular, elongated soft palate, are definitely progressive and likely to be worse in older dogs than in pups. Show me an adult Peke working in hot weather without curling its tongue out to clear its airway, and I'll be more convinced. The Crufts winner needed ice bricks after its little step out. The dog is considerably older now and still herding sheep etc. go and look at the videos yourself. There are other videos of that dog - and others - working. There are heaps of vids of pekes running - but I cannot share because I have no permission. I am over showing you things which you diss. I used to tell you but you rubbished them all. You told me my perfectly healthy dogs were sickos because some animal rights twink told you so. Well, the sicko dogs are still living in good health with no health problems, no BOAS You obviously believe all pedigree dogs are sick.

....or watch and listen to Animal Australia spokesman Glenys Oogjey - a total zealot. An extremely dangerous person. Dogs, showing, breeding, dog sports, tracking, agility etc will all be banned. Peta told us that 30 odd years ago. We took no notice. It will not matter what dog breeders do, or how healthy the dogs are, they will still disappear, as compliant and kind greyhound owners will also lose their dogs. Public has been told purebred dogs, particularly brachy breeds, are suffering. Some are. However, differentiating one suffering from one not suffering to a 3rd party is impossible. So they will all go. Here is one of the many brachy dogs who has no problem at all breathing Riding and breeding horses, including hacking, ode and dressage will probably disappear before racing. But they will all go too.

Sarspididious - animal rights, much? What on earth are you doing on a dog forum? I suppose I could ask the same question of many posters.

Sorry w&h I am not sure where you are competing, but not everyone wants a wb. You need a seat and legs like a german master for most of them, ott have been around and seen all kinds of things and are preferred by a lot of people. Very few wbs are in the hack ring. There are, additionally, plenty of homes for tb in polocrosse and pony club where the horse does not need to have top conformation. But believe what you want. It is quite difficult to get an ott at present. The question of suitability of homes applies to all horses - and owners and trainers have some sense at least - and yes, some do go to unsuitable hones, and some do end up at the doggers, as do some draught horses, pony clubbers, brood mares, station horses, blah blah. Very few nice tb @ Laidley (as ever).

kirty I don't think any of that will happen. The legislation, according to the media, bans "the presence" of the dogs. That to me, means there will be NO greyhounds, so all will either be euthanased, or shipped interstate. There will be no pet homes, because the "presence" of them is banned. I would be extremely concerned if I owned show greyhounds, or have retired greyhounds as pets. I think this could be a BSL situation, where if it looks like a greyhound, it is seized and done away with. Call me paranoid, but if people want show and pet greyhounds, the intended legislation needs investigation. I also understood that following investigations, trainers who baited were expelled and/or jailed. I understood the ills in the industry had been cleaned up (apart from what to do with slow dogs) and no illegal activies were taking place. I haven't been following it all that closely - but it seems odd to "clean it up"and THEN ban greyhounds. But I have obviously missed something. A very successful trainer, who didn't bait, once told me that a greyhound could only run as fast as it could ran, and nothing you did made it run any faster - except gifted feeding conditioning and training. No idea why they all baited the dogs ... so wrong.

The pleasure market has changed a lot in the last 10-20 years. Warmbloods are much cheaper than they used to be. I sold a nice quiet sound and rideable WB mare a couple years ago for $2k. Dressage is getting more competitive even at the lower levels and Warmbloods do find the work a lot easier, I know as I've ridden both and there is a reason that the trend is heading that way. Just because they are sound and sane doesn't mean they are suitable for all pleasure horse riders, they are still racehorses and most require retraining after racing which brings their cost up to that comparable with the lower priced purpose bred horses. Sure they can often find homes easily enough if they are good looking and quiet but they don't often stay in those homes as they simply aren't suitable for the large majority of riders these days. The market has changed, fewer people have the time and resources to retrain a thoroughbred and it's not financially viable anymore as even good retrainers are having trouble getting decent money for the work they have put into retraining TBs. The pleasure market simply cannot absorb the many thousands of horses bred for racing which get funnelled into it year after year. I've got a TB sitting in my paddock that the previous owner couldn't find a home for even though she is "sound and sane". You need to get our more and see what is competing, and decent warmbloods are not very cheap. I am not talking about 10 - 20 years ago, I am talking about NOW. I have no idea why the TB couldn't find a home - ugly? Hard to fatten? Something wrong with her, or lack of decent advertising. Anyhow this thread is about greyhounds, not racehorses.

Lots of people want and take racehorses and know what they are doing. And racehorses are much cheaper than warmbloods etc. And do the job just as well - if you are planning on going to the games maybe not, but for everything else - a tb will do, you need to see how many are competing. I believe all sound and sane horses which are not savage are homed.

I presume from the wording of the press release, that the breeding of "show" greyhounds will also be banned - particularly as the specifically mention "presence". No idea how they could tell the difference between a racing and show dog. Racehorses will be banned long after pedigree dogs are. Lots of money in racing and enough clout to push the government back. A lot of failed horses which are sound, sane and not wanting to kill someone does find a home. There are so many racehorse re-homing groups on facebook these days, and so many horses on them. Most of the show horses, pc horses, eventers and jumpers are ex-racehorses.