Jed

Can somebody please tell me why you need to put dogs in crates at home. We have had dogs since and mid 1970's and been breeding since the mid 1980's and we don't own a crate. Yes OK when the puppy we are keeping from a litter comes to live indoors with us there a few accidents, but they soon learn to follow the adults and go outside to wee and poo. After a short period of adjustment on the puppy's behalf we all live together happily, so WHY shut puppies in crates?? Pam What she said :rolleyes: I own crates and show trolleys. I don't use them for pups at home.

Hi Ray Wise, agree with Crisovar, if you keep spraying the little smuckers, you'll get rid of them in time. It took me 2 years. Began with nightly patrols, there were 7 squillion of them, then I got down to twice weekly, once weekly, and now it's rare to see one. I think they have posted a toady sign that only toads can see on the fence that says "Savage Human, Danger, Keep Out". It's been like that for 4 years. We have had a lot of rain recently,and I notice there are a few more around, so I go out for a few minutes once a week and knock them off too. I actually think I have reduced the larger ones which were breeding, so there are fewer being bred. In the beginning, there were so many of them, I'd have had to buy another freezer!! My yard is too big to put barriers up, and I am surrounded by creeks and dams, so they are breeding, breeding, breeding all the time. And now I have some lovely frogs. Jed loves frogs. Any mongrel dog found tormenting a frog is in deep doo doo!! :rolleyes: But the frogs tell on the dogs, and are saved.

Toads and frogs look pretty different to me Yep, me too, and I have a large frog population, with brown frogs, and bell frogs. Never sprayed the wrong species, and of course, because I have been spraying the toads for a few years, there are hardly any, and the frog population has increased. And the frogs chitter when the dogs pick them up, so I can rush out and save them (the frogs, not the dogs!)

They are quite flat feet, but that shouldn't be causing lameness, from the photos, imho. Flat feet aren't a problem - they simply aren't as good as nice tight arched feet, but it doesn't matter much in the general scheme of things I'd get the pup onto Vit. c. Cut the toenails, and after you find the cause of the lameness, try to walk on loose gravel every day for a while. Sometimes, you need an experienced vet to pick up the cause of lameness - sometimes vets see a conformation problem, and diagnose it as causing lameness, on the KISS principle. One of my dogs was slightly lame for a while. I think I m pretty ok on picking up cause of lameness, couldn't find a thing. Took her to the vet, he picked it up within 2 minutes, infected toe joint, course of antibiotics, if that didn't work, the toe would have to come off. There was no obvious sign, and I am quite sure a less experienced vet would have missed it. Antibiotics worked. If you are close enough to the breeder, take the pup there. They may be able to help enormously with advice etc, and they may even know what the problem is. If you are not close enough, phone them up, maybe send some photos. Pup owners often get more help from (good) breeders than from vets, because breeders know the dogs and the lines well. Rule of thumb for every problem ... first port of call is the breeder. If the breeder doesn't know, or couldn't be bothered, then go elsewhere (vet). Some problems ARE straight vet or injury problems, and the breeder will say to go to the vet. Puppy owners have phoned me about what vets have told them are enormous problems, very expensive, and often it is a growth stage, or something quite inexpensive. I am not bashing vets, but some things are "breed specific", and the breeder sees lots of dogs from his line, where a vet only sees a few, and may not have the experience the breeder has.

I spray the toads with Pine O Clean, or a copy of it from the Warehouse - $2 bottle, don't dilute, much cheaper than Dettol, nd works very fast. Neither Dettol or Pine O Clean will harm dogs. I don't know about Phenyl (sp?) but I think the smell would keep dogs away. My dogs lose interest in the toads once they are sprayed with disenfectant. I do think some dogs get a high from licking the toads. One of mine has learned not to pick them up in her mouth, and picks them up by a back leg and torments them. I do think she licks them, and likes the "high", but she is never too "high". If the dogs are poisoned by a toad, there should be some reaction within 30 - 45 minutes.

About $250.00 to have a few out. GA, tooth scale. Thought I might go there myself? Maybe the op's friend should ask around at local vets for prices. They can vary a lot.

I agree with that Angelsun, dacs are their own special little people, and they have firm opinions!! All breeds are different, I guess the key is to understand the one you have.

I don't. How do I assess boxers in competition? I am very fussy about the standard. At one stage, years ago, my boxers were rather sharp in temperament. They did meet the standard, but they were, to my mind, a bit fast with their teeth, and it was becoming apparent that in a changing world, a more mellow dog was required. But it still had to fill the standard. This is what the standard requires "defender and protector does describe a dog which will bite people who enter the property. However, I felt that what was required was a dog which would accept visitors, but have the discretion to tell who was friend, and who was foe. I had no trouble with treachery, faithfullness, or trustworthyness. So I bred my bitches to line which was gentle - I lost some of the protective instincts, and the pups I culled went to families where they were greatly loved, but I doubt they would have fulfilled their function as a guard dog. I needed a couple more crosses to get back to what I wanted - without losing conformation or type. I think I have it now. I crowed on here a while back about my teenage good girl, trained not to bark at people in the neighbouring paddock, and then, when the commands to cease stopped, going straight to guarding. She wags at anyone I welcome, but she gave absolute hell to men working on the fenceline where she was. She sat beside them and barked at them if they did anything too sudden, and there is no way she wuld have allowed them inside. If they had pushed her, she would have bitten them. And while she was doing that, my other good girl, a big puppy, was inside, staying between me and the window and growling. This is the dog which licks every strange kid she sees when she is out, by the way. But she keeps her eye on me to ensure I am not being attacked. My epitome of a good boxer is the one I used to take to shows. She'd skive off as soon as we arrived, to see all her "friends" (some of whom we didn't know), come back when called, and sit in the truck when we were away. NO ONE went into the truck - except our friends, they could borrow bridles, saddles, take horses out, or put them back, and she wagged at them because they were accepted. No one else was allowed to put their foot on the tailboard. She simply walked to the back of the truck, growling. Same dog was 100% trustworthy with friends, kids, little dogs, cats, birds etc. And I still believe function follows form. My experience with horses proves it. I bred a pony stallion. He was a successful led pony (what's successful, 2 royals for 1 x champion and 1 x reserve? champions at every aggie he went to?). He was a lovely pony, with good action, and very clever. I sold him at 7 to someone for a harness pony. He was not broken in. I told the dude he would be a top harness pony. He won the first ode he entered. He won show classes too, but he excelled at ode. He culminated the second year of new ownership with Australian runner up driven pony of the year competing in 3des against ponies up to 14 h. He was well trained, but he had the conformation for the job. He didn't need to be on the bit in the dressage, but he looked as if he was, so he won every single time. And the dude who bought him had been competing for about 6 years, and the best he'd done was 4th - in anything. I think people who want to do sports don't give enough credence to show breeders - a lot of them do have dogs which do have the attributes, (some don't, some have lost sight of what the dogs are supposed to do, but not all) but because working lines are available, they prefer them. I don't care about that, but I don't think "show dogs" are given a fair go. Some show dogs aren't much good, and some people can't choose the right pup, or train it, and then they blame the "show lines" for their failures. But if buyers knew what they wanted, and looked around, they would find what they wanted. My cocker will fossick around a paddock, find a dead bird and bring it back to me. He has had no training, but his genes tell him that is what he should do, so he does it. I have a friend with a few retired retrievers - all are champions, a couple are grand champions. They will ALL put in a good day's work in the field. They have never been trailled, but a couple of them would be successful...at any level. And I wonder how good point scores are? I won champ at the royal years ago with the palomino, and he won high point horse of the year too, based on led and performance. He was well trained, and well ridden - he did well in C grade jumping, and dressage to Elementary, and he did a few western pleasures. He was immaculately turned out and presented. Was he the best horse that year? No. I wouldn't have used him over a mare, but he was a very good colour, absolutely no smut, but he wasn't the best horse. Because he was worked, and worked to conceal his faults and highlight his good features, he looked better than he was. And he was a long way down the list of stallions I would have been using!! He was used though, by people who were swayed by "high point" and didn't really know much about conformaton. Where are his progeny? No where. He never threw anything much. And I can run him down because he didn't belong to someone else!! So I'm being objective, not nasty So, I don't think high points are the answer either, quite frankly. I bred, schooled and sold a u.12h pony, and he was the pony club ZONE highpoint horse. Because he generally won "best presented", his 9 year old rider was 1st or 2nd in rider class, and he was a fair sporting pony, could be relied on for a 2nd or 3rd in novelties, and a place always in the jumping, usually 1st, because he was from a line of natural jumpers. He was probably the best in the zone in the age group, over all, but there were some brilliant horses ridden by associates, which were better, but he beat them all.

Obviously too advanced for you to write your own thoughts It's called p l a g i a r i s m, by the way. Milk buckets serve some useful purpose, oafs, none.

And, as FaxonandBear will verify, the Afghan was bred to course in rugged hills, unlike it's cousin, the Saluki, which was used on the plains. So, to test the dogs, you will need to let them chase deer (or something) around rugged hills!! I don't see that as an accredited sport any time soon. Good luck tonymc, don't forget to credit the author of the information you posted. Kavic APBT club runs regular days for pit bulls for weight pull, and other competitions to test the dogs. The comps were big deals, annual point scores etc. Or they used to a couple of years ago, what is happening now I don't know.

You're right tony, function came first. And drovers do breed good dogs. So, are you saying no one except drovers should breed dogs?

Yep, I understand your point, Vickie. Turn it around and you have the usual show breeder's dilemma. Occasionally I get the urge to do something with a dog, because it has talent. While I am finding the time, it grows too old!! I would have loved to do field trials with my cocker, but she grew middleaged while I was finding the phone number And my good girl and I will probably do doggy dancing in the yard for years, and maybe show off to our friends, and the breeder. On a list I am on, breeders are watching, with baited breath, the exploits of one of the breed (bred by a member of the list) who now has all tracking titles, most of the obedience titles, and is having a go at flyball with some success. Everyone is going "oogh, aargh, go you good thing" and every time she passes another level, the list is full of genuine congratulations When that dog can't compete any more, I am sure about 20 breeders will offer the owner another dog...free. All we can do is breed to the standard, being mindful of the purpose of the dog, not be swayed too much by current show trends, stick to our guns, and try to get one of ours into work. And know that if we stick to the standard for construction. movement and temperament, there is a good chance, given the right training and the correct drive (which we can probably pick in a pup) and dog will do the job. Thank dog my breeds aren't real "workers" I'll leave that to breeders who know what they are doing. And I don't have any particular problem with working dogs -- but some "show" dogs will do the job too. It's a matter of smarts and heart. But with poor conformation, no matter how smart, or how good the heart, the dog wont have either the stamina or the speed required, or the turning ability, blah blah. Friends of mine have a Shih Tzu. They have a little property of about 40,000 acres, and a couple of working dogs. They say the Shih Tzu is the best worker they have!! Self taught, he works in the paddock, and he will back sheep in the race. He's no good in the yards, the sheep run on him. He needs a REAL dog to save him. But if the sheep run on him, he goes for them. The only problem is the burrs when he hops into bed with his owners at night!!

Consider, ladies, several factors....it needs a lot of time to train a dog in any discipline. There isn't time to show, breed, live, work, and do agility or something else. Consider also that 95% of pups will be used as pets. All breeders hope that puppy buyers will take their dogs through some discipline - but it rarely happens. I have a friend who sells quite a few cockers to work - in the field - and they are successful - but no one hears about them. No one comes for a trial dog, so there is not much of "proving" the dogs. I got a bit enthused about doggy dancing. The dog I thought would be good isn't. So I tried another one a few weeks ago - just off lead, in the back yard, for a bit of fun. And knowing nothing about doggy dancing, I thought she had a bit of aptitude. She will follow my hand on the leg around me, run backwards, sit and stay, jump in the air at a signal, put out each paw on a signal, and she is learning to jump and turn, which is proving a bit of a challenge. I showed a couple of friends, who thought she was great. She loves it. Whether she would do it away from home is another matter. Probably. I'd like to go and learn how to do it, and give it a go. But I don't have time. And it probably wouldn't prove much. I don't think anyone would think being able to do doggy dancing was an attribute to the breed. Unfortunately, while you are off doing agility of retrieving trials, or doggy dancing, the kennel maids are not feeding the dogs, cleaning the house, washing the car, weeding the garden, or earning a living. The dogs of each breed who do succeed in any discipline are lost to the general public, so no one knows. I don't think any of us breeders care much, to be quite honest.

Further proof that you don't have a clue. Every post reinforces it. Vickie, I don't have a problem with working dogs. nor do I have a problem with them having their own standard - particularly herding dogs. I have a minor problem with "working lines" in some other disciplines, but it doesn't affect me, and I don't have a great knowledge, so I keep my mouth shut, because I don't care all that much. I don't post much in here, rather leave it to those whose major interest it is. What ticks me off, and obviously Crisovar too, is people who have no interest in purebred dogs, and worse, very little knowledge, mouthing off about standards in a denigratory way, simply because they can. Consequently, every discussion which should be rational and give more information and an exchange of ideas, is completely trashed. tonymc just nips into these threads to knock purebred dogs at every opportunity. A review of all his posts on this forum is a relevation. I personally don't care what he thinks, or others who mouth off. However, a lot of people who don't know much about dogs, working dogs, purebred dogs, standards etc. come and read these forums without posting. So, if erroneous assertions by people who haven't the faintest idea what they are talking about are allowed to stand, those casual readers believe all purebred dogs are shit, or worse, and all registered breeders are shit, or worse. Lots of registered breeders are not shit, or worse. They breed with dedication and ethics, and they try to produce dogs which are correct in every way - including having working ability. They don't come here, but they need a voice. We already have enough problems with people wanting x bred dogs because "they are better, healthier, live longer, get sick less" blah blah. And that's fine with me too, because there aren't enough registered dogs to meet demand, and if someone wants a x bred, it's none of my business. but when they are basing their choice on uninformed, unresearched writings by people who have no experience or knowledge, I want to correct that. I only come to this forum now to slap around those who have no respect for the interests and beliefs of others. And there is nothing wrong with the standards. They describe a dog which has the physical form to function most efficiently at what he was designed to do. Problems arise in the interpretation of the standard, breeding for current fashion, and the difficulty of actually achieving dogs up to that standard. Don't knock something until you have had a go at it. Thanks Paganman

Seems to me that it is ok, in your eyes, for you to butt into every thread on anything at all in any forum, and strew about your opinions - based on ???? experience and knowledge - so I'm pleased you love it when showies come in bitching to the working guys. Well done. Presumably, you are classing yourself as "working guys". Just what exactly is the criteria you have used to describe yourself as that? And if you need credentials to post in different forums - which by the way, I've never actually seen in any of the rules, how many dogs have you bred/shown/trained/worked? Hmm? On that criteria, I have far more right to post in this forum than you do, having taken 3 separate dogs of separate breeds to CD, CDX and UD. I haven't done more because I don't have the commitment or the time. And owned, trained, and worked a dog on properties. Just one, so I don't think that makes me at all knowledgable about "working" dogs, so I rarely comment, but I am over people with smuck all knowledge arguing for pages about what rot standards are, and how crap purebred dogs are. And I've owned and worked ONE herding dog - on properties - not in trials. And I've lived on more properties and seen more real working dogs than you will ever see - working in paddocks, working in yards, backing sheep, loading goats, working cattle. And I'm not an expert by any means, but I am sick of people who rubbish purebred dogs, and standards they have never read, and are not interested in reading, and would not understand if they did read them, so generally know smuck all about it, simply because they think it is smart. tonymc I have no idea where you live, nor do I care. You have never shared that information, so for all I know, you might live in a soft drink can under the Harbour Bridge, and if you are going to have a hissy fit because you think I was talking about you, you can re think the situation. Everthing on here is not about you. Why on earth would you think I would bother referring to you when I have no idea about you, or where you live? I don't think you've ever posted anything about your dogs. For all anyone knows, you don't even have dogs. Not that I care. The same comments re registered dogs I made to the other poster in this thread also apply to you. You demonstrably have no idea about purebred registered dogs, yet you come to a purebred forum and bag standards and registered dogs at every possible opportunity, except when you are plagiarizing well known trainers! Or published psychology findings. And you might take your own advice about running, and cease making nasty, uninformed comments about purebred registered dogs. We're all over it. Come back when you have owned a few, bred a few, and have some informed comments to make. The fact that you refute the statements about working dogs makes me wonder, when paddy's pigs know what happens. And if you are referring to me as a fool, it takes one to know one. And, yes, there truly are some fools on this site. You shall know them by their writings. Jesomil People are denigrating the STANDARDS, of which they have nil understanding. Working dogs do have their place, an important place. So do purebred dogs, and those places are different places. JulesP Few farmers would buy from a show kennel. I know a few who occasionally do, to introduce a bit more type or bone or whatever they think they might need. They do it carefully, and after consideration. Some show breeders do breed dogs which will work, and those lines are the ones chosen by people I know. Some farmers have their own lines, maybe 10 or 20 generations of "home bred workers", and they will introduce an outside dog when they think it is necessary. They will also buy trial dogs, or offspring of trial dogs for new blood. Everyone does it differently. The demand for top dogs outstrips supply, particularly good started dogs.

Well, you obviously have no knowledge of working dogs on real properties either, Tony. 120 acres and a couple of full mouth wethers is not a real property, by the way. What do you think happens to working dogs which don't work?

A couple of mine sleep on the bed. At bedtime I say "coming onto the bed?". They used to jump up, but are too old now, so are lifted up, the one who can still jump does so. We have ground rules. Dogs sleep on the end of the bed - no sticking whiskers up people's noses at 2am, no lying on top of me, no barking, no circling, no "nest making", and there is never a problem. They also sleep anywhere, in the show trolley, in their bed in another room, or at other peoples houses. Works well for me. In summer, there is a long queue, as I have the fan positioned at the end of the bed, and turned on, so they like to get the breeze. And being on the bed during any daytime naps is an invitation thing too - and it's never the old dogs, the young 'uns get a turn then. Younger dogs must wait for a position to become available. I fear they pray for the demise of their elders!!

Vickie Course it is factual. Obviously not in your circles I didn't say it was. Dogs die on farms for all sorts of reasons, but pups/young dogs die because, despite being bred from good workers, from good lines of good workers, they don't have enough ability. I don't know what "inappropriately emotive" is - would you prefer "shot", "dead", "killed" ? It is practised everywhere dogs are seriously worked. What are people to do with the ones who wont work? There is a limit to the number of pets which townspeople will take, and most are unsuitable as pets, and your friendly neighbourhood pet shop is not an option. I am refuting the erroneous suggestion that all dogs bred from working lines will work, as opposed to those bred from show lines. I am neither codoning or approving of the culling of working dogs, but it is a fact. People tend to forget that when touting "working" dogs. Sure, I cull some of mine. I sell them as pets to be desexed - because I have that option, and if I didn't have that option, I wouldn't breed at all. As PF says, on properties, that is not an option. A working dog is a tool, and although it may be loved and well cared for, it has a high value, and if it cannot work, it is worse than a nuisance.

And working line dogs also have a standard. And paddocks of properties where REAL working dogs are, are littered with the corpses of working line dogs which DIDN'T work. And you might get 1 in 30 from show stock, but you don't get 100% from working stock either. Certainly a better ratio. If you choose show dogs as breeders with working ability, whilst keeping to the standard, you would get a higher proportion of working dogs, but most show breeders tend not to do that. I know a couple who do, and they confidently sell dogs which will work, whilst continuing to produce champions. It's simple, the ones who demonstrate no working ability, no matter how well conformed, are either shown, and not bred, or sold as pets, and only those pups which show solid working ability are used for breeding. And there are many more in other breeds, I am sure.

I presume you are having a shot at me, so thanks. If the dog meets the standard, he is more likely to be able to carry out his original task. Because the items in the standard DESCRIBE a dog which is bred to perform the function. The article you quote states that, and it is correct. And I agree with testihg but having the conformation to do the job, means the dog is more likely to do it than another. If you chuck out the standard, and just breed dogs which can do the job, you will probably achieve what you are seeking to a degree, but if you do that, you cannot guarantee past the first generation. Lots of mongrel dogs can do all sorts of things - and do them well - but if you are seeking a dog to do xx, you will try heaps of mongrels before you find the ones who can do the job. at least if you buy a dog bred to do the job, you probably wont have as many lemons. If there are no standards, you just take pot luck. At least with a standard, you can choose from a type which is more likely to do the job. Thousands of horses are bred which resemble Might & Power, but they wouldn't do the job he did. Same with dogs. Don't rubbish something you don't understand. No one is making you buy a purebred dog, buy what you like. The standard is there for those who want to use it - and don't fool yourself, good breeders are attempting to breed dogs which will actually work at whatever it is they are supposed to do. And some wont work, and some breeders sacrifice the working ability for show wins, but not all do. There are heaps of gundogs from registered lines working well in the field - it's simply that they get no recognition, police dogs are known by their police name, not their registered name (and a lot are registered) same with customs dogs etc.

I think the "lump" might be the occiput. Bit hard to tell from the photo, especially as my screen is on the way out , but that's what it looks like to me.

Toy breed pups do not have strong jaws, and often, eating a few pieces of dry kibble wears them out, so they stop eating it. Greedy pups will persevere, but ones which are not greedy will simply give up because it is too hard and tiring to continue chewing. I breed Cavaliers, and I give them very little kibble, and if I do, I soak it in hot water to soften it. Try him on a raw diet, as has been suggested, and also try things such as an egg, scrambled in the microwave. He may not like it, but the may, and it will be good for him.

Hi Like, some good suggestions here. You might also try rinsing him after his bath with apple cider vinegar in water - about 1/2 cup to 4 litres of water should do it. If it doesn't work, it wont do any harm, and it often does help dogs with non specific itchies.

SecretKei But if they didn't give you the third degree, they probably wouldn't care. Those are the ones who given endless help and advice. The one I picked out of the phone book (years ago) interror-gated me pretty throroughly, it never changes!! It gets easier the longer you do it, you can say - "well I had a Big Name Prefix dog", and the breeder thinks, "oh, that's Mrs. Chinesewatertorture, what an old bat she is, she wouldn't have sold one unless this person was AOK" - and you move up the list a bit!! And once you have the dog, you become part of the "family", which is great.

What Gareth said. There are some ordinary registered breeders out there, as there are ordinary solicitors, ordinary doctors, ordinary lawyers. However, there are a lot more really good registered breeders than good byb - and there are NO good puppy farmers. Someone who doesn't even understand the basics of dog husbandry has to be rotten, so puppy farms aren't even in the equation. Although I agree with Gareth - I must confess that I chose one breeder from the yellow pages, on the basis of proximity, when I knew little about the breed. She proved to be a wonderful mentor and friend, and a wealth of information. Another was the relative of a friend. Another I chose because I liked the look of the dogs. Another I answered an ad for a pet pup in the paper. These breeders were the cream - big winning dogs, wonderful people. The kind of breeder I can only aspire to be. I feel privileged to have known them, and owned dogs they bred, and to have been given advice and assistance by them. None were exactly chosen on deep research, or, any research really, so maybe I got lucky? I think, on the law of averages, the liklihood of finding a genuine breeder is much higher than finding a rotten one. I've dealt with people I'm sorry I dealt with, but had no really bad experiences. And the benchmark is pretty high, because I've dealt with wonderful people. And I am still amazed at just how good some breeders are, how hard they try, and how much they care. People who are happy with their breeder don't say much, people who are unhappy say a lot, and often, so they are the ones most heard.