Jed

Thanks Badboyz, Dr. Rob Staff'n'toller, unfortunately, Kuraby is on the other side of Bris

I think you have cause for concern Must admit if he was my dog, I would be titre testing rather than vaccinating again. Here's some reading http://home.earthlink.net/~pawsreflect/vaccinosis.html

Have you tried My Pets Vet at Bald Hills? Near the pub? Think the vet is called - um - forgotten!! If it's the same vet who owned it about 5 years ago, he's good

I imagine that Tas would have a big hydatits problem, because it has the ideal climate. And there is always the possibility of a cyst getting through the butcher's/abattoir inspection. And people do cook their food, so I suppose if dogs aren't fed offal, there is not going to be a problem. Yep, Sandra, I am sure you are right. Humans get it from dogs who have it. They can't get it directly from the offal themselves. And I think sheep are the main suspects? Dunno about goats? I have a friend with a property in the highlands of NSW. He butchers his own meat. There is no way he would ever feed any of his dogs offal, for this reason. And his mother needed an operation to remove a cyst, so he is particularly careful. I think you could get around the "no offal" by supplements, and offal is only a small percentage of the ration. I believe liver is rich in Vit A, and you could check kidneys, heart, and add supplements. I'd add an extra egg or two, and not worry too much about it!! Or you could write to Ian Billinghurst and ask him. Nice guy, happy to answer.

Yep, keep us in the loop. There aren't too many reg boxer pups in Qld at the moment. Remember to find out what she has been eating, so you can continue with that diet to avoid tummy upsets. Remember not to razz her as a baby,do the training first. Sit, No, and don't let her get too excited. That nice little pup will soon be a humongous teenager, and if you haven't built in an off button, she will be a pain in the neck. Really important not to stir boxer pups up all the time Teach her to sit or lie down, and give her a lot of quiet stroking, so she understands "quiet is good". I have a 19 month old loony here who runs in circles around me when she is happy, jumping as high as my head, and spinning. No probs, but I had a friend here the other day, who nearly had a heart attack "that dog will knock you over". She wont, she was kept quietish as a babe, and knows what "no" means. We both enjoy a bit of nonsense, but if you don't make your pup understand that "looney" is not a way of life, she will be out of control. They behave exactly as you let them and if you laugh and are happy when a baby puppy is nutso, it will be hard to stop when she is older. They are a very active agile enthusiastic breed, and with children, it is important that they have manners, or they will knock the kids over. You need to teach them what quiet means! So make sure there are plenty of quiet times, and lots of affection. And they should be inside, and you don't want them breaking anything in the house. Great breed with children. They are devoted to their family. My chidren grew up with a few, and there were never any problems. But a lot are dumped because they are over the top and out of control at 12 - 18 months, so early training and not too much stirring up is very important.

After a dog has recovered from parvo, it sheds the virus for 14 days. ie infectious. Minky, if they are having a reaction to the vaccine, they wil not give the other pups parvo. But, the incubation period is 2 - 10 days according to most authorities. 14 according to some, or with a different strain. If you have a pup with parvo, it is likely that it will have passed the virus to its littermates or other dogs you own. However, to be safe you should isolate it. It should have separate everything. You should change your clothes when you handle it, and you should discard those clothes (and shoes) whereever "isolation" is. You should then shower and put o clean clothes You should wash anything which has been near the pup in a separate bucket or bowl in a viricide and not let those utensils, toys, bedding anywhere near t he other pups. The mechanical action of soap and water will remove parvo from you. The clothes you wore to handle the pup should be soaked in a bucket with viricide and washed separately from other clothes. Parvo spreads because the infected dog has already passed it on before you notice, or more than one dog was infected at the same time. And it is very easy to spead it about on your clothes, shoes, hands utensils etc. That's why you need to know whether t he pups had a reaction to the vaccine, or had parvo or corona virus. It still sounds like a reaction to me. Also do a time line diary. Date and time of symptoms of each pup, progression of the problem. That will help give you a handle on it, and if you write it down, you will see clearly what happened, and perhaps "how". Did you take the one who passed last Monday for a pm? That should give you information.

Melbomb, I saw the questions, and kept meaning to get back to them, and thought what a great job Nala Cleo had done, but I see what you mean about a few opinions. I reckon stonebridge should answer them. How about it, stonebridge? Anyone who has obedienced a boxer is a hero (but only if it passed :D One of mine got couple of big fat 0, the judge just didn't understand boxers )

Humbolt, I understand. $700 is a pretty good price for a boxer and you don't need the papers. And boxer pups are difficult to source. However, I'd be asking myself why the parents aren't registered. It may be that back a generation or two, a breeder sold a boxer for a pet, and it wasn't supposed to be bred from. Maybe it wasn't up to scratch in the conformation stakes, or maybe the brother or sister had a hereditary problem, and the breeder didn't want the problem passed on. The owner decided to disregard what the breeder said, and breed a litter. It might also be that a grandparent was 1/2 boxer, 1/2 something else. So now we are on to the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation where the ancestors of the parents aren't known - and so you have no idea whether there is something to be aware of. You might not know that the grandmother died from bloat for instance, so you will not be aware of the steps you should take to ensure your boxer doesn't suffer from that, or there may be a tendency to skin problems, but you wont know that either. There are a lot of minor but expensive problems which it helps if you know about. And if the parents of the pup are breeding age, it is unlikely that the owners will know much about problems which could occur in middle age. And if the parents aren't registered either, how close to the boxer standard are they? As a new boxer owner you wont have much idea how a good, fair or horrible boxer looks as a pup, or what the mouth should look like now so the teeth don't stick out in the adult. Ensure BOTH parents have mellow, friendly temperaments. Breeders do breed for character and temperament, there is nothing worse than a 26kg nasty boxer. Conversely, you may purchase a perfectly charming pup which grows up to be a lovely health adult. Personally, I wouldn't risk it!! But it's your decision. Have you checked out the DOL breeders' pages for pups for sale? Having said that, I know you are going to buy her, because you like her So make sure you come and join the boxer thread, and all the boxer owners there will give you advice, and help you with problems you may have -- and NO one will say "I told you so". But we want photos.

Hi Humbolt - there is no proof that an unregistered boxer is purebred. Do you know the reason the pups are not registered, and the breeder is not a member of your state's CC with a prefix? I do realise that registered boxer pups are fairly scarce and you may not wish to wait, which is understandable, or you may have seen and liked these pups. :D you should try to find out the history of the parents of the pup, to check for things such as ulcerative colitis which can be a problem in some lines, as well as the incidence of cardio myopathy and whether the parents have been holter monitor tested, or heart checked at all. The pup can be checked by the vet for heart, but the parents should be checked for cm I personally don't believe HD is a big problem in boxers, because of their conformation, but it can happen where the dogs are not bred with regard to conformation. Don't buy one from a pet shop, the ones I have been in shops have been the poorest quality, lacking in bone and squareness, usually with bad mouths. And, what Terujo says. Happy boxer owning, there is no better breed but don't tell people who own other breeds, we don't want to insult them

Yep, chlorine bleach. Minky, F10 is fine. Vets use a few different things and they al work. I thought show people only called you a pf if you beat them with something home bred?

If you do your entries, you can go and watch me fall over my pup and laugh yourself stupid OR BETTER STILL I will do your entries on Entry Form Australia AND YOU CAN SHOW THE LITTLE TOAD FOR ME!! How good is that? I'm not showing a pointer though!! And you can see MY new show shoes. Shiny as can be patent leather sneakers - sort of Dorothy shoes crossed with Doc Martens

Well, that's interesting. Be good if you could find out more. It does sound like a vaccination reaction to me. And what the vet has said / done doesn't seem like best practice either, or the behaviour of a vet who is au fait with parvo and vacs - and a lot aren't, so more information wuld be great, for Minky and these poor little pups. nickojoy Every veterinary medicine book cites a cup of household chlorine bleach in a bucket of water to kill parvo - clinical trials show it works and it has worked for others. I've used it here after parvo pups who were visiting, and had no further problems. However, it has been proven NOT to kill parvo in the presence of soil so you have to ensure that the area is clean, and you can't simply spray. The pups with parvo should be out of the area, (all pups!!) so they are not in direct contact with the bleach, and if necessary, everything can be rinsed. 1 cup to a bucket of water doesn't give off a lot of fumes, but of course, I have always used double the quantity (can't help myself) without problems. It is a very cheap and effective viricide, and when it dries, there are no fumes, and I've never heard of problems. When you are cleaning, it's easy to miss a tiny bit, and that would have to be the bit where there is some virus. LOL. I wouldn't rinse pens or crates, I'd put them in the sun to dry, but I would rinse toys, bowls etc. Things which pups would have in their mouths. Never used Trigene, but know Virkon S does work - in the presence of soil, but it has to be in contact with the virus for a certain lengh of time, and also at x strength. Great product, but expensive. Microcide worked very well - better than Virkon S, imho, but it was thought to be carcinogenic, and removed from sale. They invented F10, Virkon S and Trigene because they could and I am sure that if people were buying bleach from the supermarket, the chemical companies wanted somethng THEY could make a profit from. Oh cynic that I am!! I have no idea what you can expect. Some thought your remarks were a bit off so that will colour their opinion of you. Whether their future responses to you will be changed by that, I cannot say. Naw, but like anyone else, I am free to express my opinions. As others who agreed with me did. Are you the breeding police? Yes I have when they have been unkind and unpleasant, and I have happened to notice, and I will continue to do so. How many litters the op breeds is up to her, not you. If you think you might be aiding a pf, and that disagrees with your ethos, your option is not to call her out on it, but to avoid the thread so your beliefs will not be compromised. This has been discussed at length over time, but you are too new to know that, and obviously haven't read older threads where it was discussed. Advice is given by those who wish to do so for the good of the pups. Because we are all animal lovers. And because making judgemental calls is distressing for the op, who is already dealing with a bad situation encompassing the loss of pups, which is distressing to anyone. Perfectly respectable breeders have come onto this forum and had the stuffing belted out of them by those who were prepared to judge and condemn with little or no evidence. Some rode through it and stuck around, and have contributed to the forum, some went away, and we are probably poorer for that. And maybe the entire pedigree dog world is poorer for that. Apology accepted, although I am not offended. I simply pointed out the tacit agreement we have had for some time. Allow the poster to divulge before making judgments, consider the welfare of the pups. We are supposed to be dog lovers. Check some threads where 90% of posters have said "go to your vet", and think about why that advice was offered by members who probably did have the answers.

Re vacs quantity. Switched on vets or those who have lost pups at vac time DO give some toy breeds 1/2 quantity. Quite regularly. Yours is saying "no" because he doesn't know about it, and is not open minded enough to research. Sorry. find a more with it vet. Even if you have to travel. It will be worth it. Or even speak to someone who knows about vacs, if you can.

Evo has better ingredients than Pro Plan, and is the one I would choose. I used it for a couple of years, with very good results. Probably more expensive, but worth it, with fewer fillers. Don't think very highly of Supercoat.

I agree with Rysup here. I wouldn't vaccinate until they were 8 or 9 weeks old, and I would consider vac with killed virus, just in case it was a reaction to the vaccines. The other thing is that rottwielers and chihuahuas are vaccinated with exactly the same amount of vaccine. Some vets halve the quantity given to toy breeds If I had this happen, I would go to another vet for the vac who was really switched on, do it at 8 - 9 weeks, and discuss the possibility of vac with killed vaccine, or with smaller doses. The other thing which has just occurred to me is that the carrier for the vac may have caused problems to the pups, and if so, the whole batch would be capable of causing problems, but I do think that is unlikely. Need to discuss this with a switched on vet. Another thought. Are any of these matings repeat matings? Same mother AND father? If there are previous litters who were fine with vac, it probably isn't the vac, but if these are first litters, it may be --- it's so difficult to know, so many variables, but I think these pups would be better to wait a bit to be vac. If you have parvo in the environment, they have either been kept away from infection, or are not going to catch it, so there should be no problem waiting, just in case they are susceptible to vaccinosis. So many questions, so few answers Your vet could get Virkon S for you. Or you can google it and approach a wholesaler, or the manufacturer directly. It isn't too cheap, and read the directions thoroughly, the virus needs to be in contact with the Virkon for a length of time. Forgotten how long I think you are right, SBT.

Your behaviour indicates you needed pulling up. The number of litters is NOYFB anyhow, and this is not the time to raise it. And as far as "the situation" goes, I would have thought it might have taught you a little consideration and empathy for others.\ Apparently not. Don't expect any assistance or sympathy from the majority of forum users now, when you find yourself in a similar situation to the op. We know what you will expect The purpose of this forum is to assist dogs and owners, not to heap criticism and approbation on them when they need advice. You don't have to follow that purpose, of course, but your behaviour has been noted and will be remembered.

What Poodlefan said. A recommended good vet is the way to go. Be aware that some dogs are allergic to wheat and / or corn which is in most dry food. Don't know anything about Artemis, but I think the vet is the way to gol Cheaper in the long run too

Agree with Gareth - pull your head in Stonebridge. Learn to accept deserved criticism. Notice you weren't too happy about being bagged some months ago, would have thought that you might have acquired some empathy. Apparently not. Minky - sorry about your pups. Nasty thing to happen Baycox + vac wouldn't have affected them like that. Testing for parvo after vac always gives a positive. Could be parvo Could by corona Could be bacterial Could be a bad reaction to the vaccination. It does happen. Chihuahuas, staffies, rottweilers, malts that I know of, and I believe steve lost beagles and boxers after vac. Some breeds are more susceptible than others + black and tan dogs. If I read your first post correctly, they began to die after vac. Symptoms are flat and depressed, wont eat, may vomit a little, may froth from the mouth, can have diarrohea, but not like parvo. Die within 12 - 24 hours of first symptoms. Supportive treatment can help, but usually doesn't. And not all pups are affected. Make up a diary of the deaths, with a timeline, and go to another vet - maybe a medical specialist, or a vet who services the closest pound, or RSPCA or big pet shop. Vets who do that see a lot of parvo and may have seen vaccine reactions, and generally have a good knowledge of it, which not all vets do. Pay for a consult, and discuss this with the vet. If you intend to breed again, you need to know what it is, why it is and how to prevent it. Your current vet doesn't seem to have a good handle on it. And yes, if you are unfortunate to lose another, do have a pm done. It may be important, if reaction to the vaccine was the problem, to try to ascertain whether there was an underlying cause. I believe pups with mild liver shunt (ie, not diagnosed, or showing any symptoms) are prone to bad reactions to vaccine, as are pups with other liver problems. If it is a reaction to the vaccine, they should be ok now. They usually die 1 - 3 days after vaccination. But you need to speak to someone with more knowledge. So sad when something like that happens. Nicojoy, may I ask please, why you believe that ordinary bleach doesn't kill parvo? All the information I have (from vet books, not the net) says bleach will kill parvo, although not in the presence of soil. This is backed by advice from vets experienced with parvo and coronis. My experience (as far as anyone can tell) is that bleach in water does work. Is there new research?

Agree with Persephone. I had a deaf dog. He was very willing and obedient, and responded to signals. His recall was 99.9% reliable. However, if he was at the end of a 60 acre paddock, he couldn't see the "usual" hand signal, so he had to learn that if I jumped up and down, that was the signal for "come". From a distance, most dogs see larger movements more readily than smaller movements. In a good season he couldn't see over the grass either. If you had to jump up and down or windmill your arms, and the dog was driving the cattle to you, they'd probably shy off My dog was trained to keep an eye on me when he was running about the paddocks. If I called the other dogs, he would come with them, but if he was by himself, or they were at a distance, he kept an eye on me. That would be dangerous for a working dog - liable to be kicked, or run on when he took his eyes off the cattle, and is was surprising just how often my deaf dog would look at me when he was running around. And of course you have to watch the deaf dog too, so you can give the signal when he is looking. Very problematical, I think.

It's an age thing - with digging, try poo in the hole. Also say "uh" if you catch him. He needs guidance about what is acceptable and what is not. Unless you show him, he will never learn. A pen, a knife, a book, a shoe or your $800 bag is just another toy to a pup. Unless you teach him to read and label everything, he sees it, he likes it, he takes or chews it. YOU know which things are his toys, he doesn't. charleswentworth has good advice - simply make him understand that some things are not to chew. Go "uh" and stand over it. If he takes something, don't chase him, go "uh" and if it's the TV remote, walk behind him, going "uh" until he drops it. Reward him for dropping it, and maybe give him one of his own toys. When I take stuff back, I go "mine" and hold it against my body. And reward the dog again. Remove from sight some of his toys on a regular basis, and replace them with "new" ones. Things boxers like include things which squeak when they squeeze them, so not too hard able to be easily compressed, furry snakes and stuff like that they can shake and kill, fluffy toys, balls with rattles in them. In other words, toys with will do something. Mine has a cat ball with a bell inside it, and a furry snake which rattles, so she shakes it to rattle it. By 8 months, she understood what was and what wasn't available to her to wreck. Edited to add - and do try to put up stuff you don't want chewed, saves a lot of aggro all round. If the dog has a toy, I always say "oh, aren't you sooo clever"in an excited voice, so the dog can differentiate between "uh" when the remote it being chewed and "good dog" when it is a toy. It does help the dog know which are toys are which are forbidden fruits. One of mine brings me something when I get home - whatever she happens to pick up. She was dragging 3m palm fronds around the yard to give me at one stage. I expressed slight displeasure, and great pleasure when she brought me a toy or a bone or a stick, and I have just realised she hasn't presented me with a palm frond for months!! Training, patience and understanding!! This fluffy duck, which made goood noises, has gone to fluffy duck heaven now, but they loved it.

Steve ;)

hmm, and that's the problem. Would probably not be detrimental results initially, but the damage would occur years down the track in the form of problems with the pancreas, liver, heart, intestines, etc. And Pottingers cats certainly proved that the damage goes on in the following generations. Lots of incorrect things we do to our dogs show no problems for years. Some dogs are fine, a lot are not.

No one is alleging anything, Aidan. I was illuminating a fact. Cavalier Uh huh Digestion takes place in dogs mostly in the intestine, and the matter to be digested passes through too quickly for cellulose to be digested when fed in it's normal state. Which is why cows have 4 stomachs, so they can digest and redigest cellulose, but you know that already.

Incidentally, Cavalier, are you aware the Veterinary Registration Board can have you charged under state laws for impersonating a veterinay surgeon? I believe the penalties are more than just a little fine - there may be a suspended sentence, but it is a criminal offence, and carries a criminal record, as impersonating a doctor does.

Yes they are almost identical when compared with a herbivore, but humans are omniverous whereas a dog is first and foremost a carnivore. Although able to deal with small amounts of carbohydrate a dog's GI tract is designed to process flesh and bones. Starting from the head a dog has a long protruding jaw and large canines both of which are designed to grab and hold its prey, the jaw only moves up and down not side to side so dogs are unable to grind foods such as cereal grains or corn. The molars in a dog are used to crack and pulverise bone. Unlike us a dog's saliva contains no enzymes to break down starch, a dog's saliva acts solely as a lubricant to allow it to bolt down its food in large pieces as quickly as possible. The dog's stomach is relatively small because a carnivore eats a nutrient rich diet so only small amounts are required at each meal and their stomach acid is approximately three times stronger than hours having a PH of 1/2 compared to a human's 4/5 thus allowing the dog to to break down bone. The very strong acid also kills most bacteria. Their gut is comparatively much shorter than ours and food passes through much more quickly, this is another safeguard against bacterial infection. However the shorter gut also means that vegetable matter isn't well processed which is why cheap dry foods with lots of cereal fillers can cause digestive disturbances, humans with their much longer gut process carbohydrates much more efficiently. For those of you who consider a vegetarian diet completely suitable for a dog tell me have any of you ever bred a litter from two medium sized vegetarian dogs, weaned the puppies straight onto a vegetarian diet and successfully raised them to adulthood? Dogs saliva does contain amylase. The dogs intestine also contains enzymes which break down cellulose. Both the human and dog stomach has an average pH of 2. Both the human and dog stomach is relatively small. Biologically, the dog is an omnivore. The dog has NO physiological obligate requirement for meat (unlike the cat). Every nutrient that dogs need can be obtained from plant sources, or they synthesise themselves. Link to studies on this? There's something about your posts - this is the second one which has made me say "bullshit" Exactly how many semesters and subjects did you complete on nutrition? Not too many obviously. And would you mind posting the correlation between the cat having diarrohea and length of intestine, or whatever the hell point you thought you were making? Thanks. Back to the books, chickie, if you think the enzymes in the intestine wil break down sufficient cellulose to allow sufficient absorbtion to provide adequate nutrition. That is the reason why people who feed BARF put the vegetable matter through a juicer or processor - TO BREAK DOWN THE CELLULOSE SO THE DOG CAN DIGEST IT. Great post as always, Miranda