Jed

Sandgrubber This has nothing to do with the original post, so my apologies. I don't know how long you have been breeding, but some temperament traits are obvious without any tests, and observation will tell you whether they are hereditary or not. Most experienced breeders do know what traits are hereditary in their own breed, so they are a good source of advice for those who do not know. I have no objection to people doing a study to measure this, but I do find it concerning that a breeder needs a study on genetic influences on behaviour. Most breeders observe the stock they are thinking of using in their breeding programs, do they not? IMHO most behaviour traits are not due to recessive genes, and if they are, the behaviour is usually only exhibited in a mild form. Surely anyone wanting to seriously breed dogs would have observed and assessed the behaviour of the parents and grandparents before using any line? Things such as fear, fear of storms and loud noises, nervyness, aggression etc - all the undesirable traits - are readily observable, and frankly, most of them are observable at dog shows, both in the ring and out of it. Most of the desirable traits are readily observable too. Training may improve some undesirable traits, but they are still there for the experienced breeder. Temperament is a very important part of any standard. Judges are looking for the correct temperament in the ring - if the standard says "outgoing" and the dogs backs away, forget a ribbon : it is says "aloof" backing away is ok. And as breeders, we need to read and understand the standards of the breeds we have, so that we are attempting at all times to breed the correct temperament. Further, using our own senses should bring us to an understanding of what we want to breed into our lines - be that "softer" or "less aloof" or whatever, and we can do that by using stock bred from parents who all exhibit the temperament traits we want to introduce or continue. People who do not understand this, and cannot observe it, imho, should not be breeding.

Is not the supervisor of this study, Dr Pauline Bennett of Monash University, connected with animal welfare, who holds the belief that pedigree dogs should not be bred? Did she not hold a seminar earlier this year in Tasmania? Is she not connected with Dr. McGeevey of Sydney University and his 39 point plan to wipe out for registered dogs? The same Dr McGeevey who stands a 10 year old coolie from the pound at stud? Maybe I am wrong.

You might need to check these, but I don't think HD is a problem in Salukis Borzois Greyhounds Spinone Lagotto And there is very little HD in boxers from good registered breeders,but they are not for everyone, and very different from a GR

Good call, Dyzney. To the OP - Has the pup been vaccinated? And is his temperature normal? And how long ago was he wormed? Gummy eyes can be a sign of flea infestation, or worms. If his temperature is normal, and he has been vaccinated - more than 10 days ago, and he is eating, I think it is not too serious. Keep up the milk - he needs to have fluids, and if he is not drinking water, he needs something. Also, if he has been drinking milk at the breeders, it is fine for him. Let him drink as much as he wants. As others said, treat his eyes, try to get the fleas off him with a flea comb. If you turn him onto his back, and can see them running out of the forest onto his tummy, your problem is most likely that he has sores from the fleas, and sore eyes from the same cause. Or he may have had a reaction to the flea medication. All the symptoms you describe could be due to a recent flea infestation, particularly if he hasn't had any before. However, if he is not vaccinated, they could also be the symptoms of distemper. Take him to the vet in the am, and good luck. Hope it all turns out well for you and the pup.

Cosmolo I came to this thread and was thinking about my pups while I waited for it to open. I saw your comment, and had to add ... I have a boy and a girl, 8 weeks old, nice specimens of the breed. Willing, trainable, intelligent friendly, outgoing. The boy is a sweetheart, he's happy, outgoing, playful, social, and will be very trainable. A lovely family dog. Easy to home to a nice family who wants and understands the breed. The girl is as smart as paint, hugely intelligent, plenty of drive, she will be the most rewarding dog for someone. She oozes personality and character. Whoever buys her will say in 10 years - "that's the best dog I've ever had". And she will be. The boy will be easy to home, the girl will be more difficult. She will need someone who is prepared to give her the attention and training she deserves, who understands the breed, and is special enough to foster her talents. Without that, she will turn into a dog who is running the household and causing problems. And will not reach her full potential, which will break her heart. And probably be sent back to me as a failure. She needs someone who will channel her intelligence into good works. So I shall have to interview a lot of people to find her special home. Tonight, I put the pups to bed. They ate their dinner, and about an hour later, blood curdling screams erupted. I thought they were play fighting, but it went on too long. Girl pup was sitting on her haunches, looking up the hallway, screaming. Not stuck, not having her ear chewed, just screaming. I went and looked - she stopped screaming. I had forgotten to put the water dish in. I went and filled it, they had a drink. I was being called upon to do my duty. It's all about matching the dog, no matter what type.

Elfin Oh, don't walk away, run like hell!! Sounds to me like the beginning of a recipe for Eurodog!! There is no "best suited". Best suited may be a fiesty chihuahau zipping here and there, or a big calm deerhound, depending on the owner. And it is the work the committed owner does which makes any dog "best suited".

If he WAS ok to bath, something has happened to change that. Try to think what it could have been. These ideas are probably way off, but is it possible you are restraining him tighty around the neck or muzzle, and he is struggling, causing a minor blood vessel to burst? Or, is it possible he is holding his breath, causing a minor blood vessel to burst? Just a thought, and probably wrong!!

Ah, but quite a lot of other breeds have SM as well - Pomeranians, Poodles, Chihuahuas, Maltese, King Charles Spaniels (Ronald S Bagley DVM, DipACVIM,(Neurology & Internal Medicine) Washington State University, College of Veterinary Medicine Pullman), Bustons, Griffons, Shih Tzu, cross bred dogs and people. And I do wonder about size. Size in Cavaliers, imho, is a bit problematic. Big ones throw small ones, and vice versa. Not having had a case, or seen a case, it's difficult to say anything much about size, although the size aspect does compute ALL dogs potentially have problems. It wont matter how many tests we do, or what DNA we find, there will ALWAYS be animals with problems. Because they are animals. We shouldn't take this lightly, but I think anyone wanting a pet should realise that there may be problems, no matter how careful and rigorous the breeder was. Eg - 6 month old pup, well bred, all tests fine, collapsed. Diagnosis was some problem with the spine, which could not be repaired, not hereditary, not much known about it, no treatment, pts. Also witness Charles Wentworth's dog. Not able to utilise calcium. Researchers discovered the gene responisble for FN in cockers, and then it was discovered that there was another disease exactly the same, with the same results, and dogs which were clear of FN were throwing the second disease. Patellas are another - even if there is a whole line of clear patellas, there is still the possibility of a dog developing patella problems. Personally, I wouldn't mate dogs where I could not get a natural mating, and I would not continue with a line which could not free whelp. The results of breeders wanting to impose their vision of "perfection" on an animal are all about us - Welsh Mountain ponies with froggy foreshortened faces, bulging eyes, and the bodies of miniature thoroughbreds instead of a hardy native pony, Arabians twisted out of all recognition, with enormous jibbas, ski jumps down their faces, and flaring nostrils so wide they would inhale all the desert sand and suffocate, dogs with so many furnishing they couldn't do their jobs, some breeds now so short legged that they couldn't run a mile. But those are the extremes, and they tend to come and go, most breeders persist to breed what is right.

You can top up the pups with tube feeds, if you need to, as you would with a bottle. I've fed pups for a few days which have slipped behind for whatever reason, and they have gone back on to the mother with no problems. I've had a few which needed a little extra for a while, and I've had some which were fully tube fed. Sometimes I've fed pups which haven't been viable, and I've been regretful that I have prolonged their lives, but conversely, I've fed pups which wouldn't have survived without supplementary or complete hand feeding, which have grown and thrived, and gone on to be healthy adults. It's not in me to walk away from, or pts, what appears to be a healthy pup which is struggling a bit. I couldn't sleep at night worrying that I had let one die. You can tell pretty soon that some pups are not destined to live, but you can't tell with all of them. If I can't tell, I take the optimistic view. Everyone has to make the call as they see it, at that moment. There is no one else. Sorry to hear about your pups, MM. It's never good.

It's up to the buyer whether s/he wants contact with the breeder or not. But what a pity to cut off your very best source of information, the one person who knows the most about the lines, and probably the one person who will always be on your side. And you also cut off a vast source of knowledge about the breed.

I often wondered what happened about that. Thanks for bringing us up to date. Greyshaft - *shudder* Unfortunately, there are buyers like that, and I constantly pray one wont find me. If only people understood that most of us do our best, and are happy to work with us for an equitable and fair outcome, there would be fewer problems. I would have thought the fact that Greyshaft did not return the pup would have been sufficient defence?

Some people are reluctant to do it because they don't understand it, and are worried about it, or because they have accidentally killed a pup doing it, or know someone who has. Pups do not necessarily cough if the tube goes into the lung. Some just quietly die. I am comfortable with tube feeding, I don't think much can go wrong, but I know people who have killed pups. On the other hand, I am very uncomfortable bottle feeding pups, in case they get too much, and it goes into the lungs. And pups have to work a lot harder to get the milk if bottle fed. And although I agreee with you Sway, I know why people wont do it.

Yes, some are quite large toys but at least they dont have SM. Souff "Lap dogs" for those with larger laps. the big ones are great, I have a couple. Zug Zug, I believe that responsible breeders, in all breeds, are doing and were always doing their very best for the welfare of their breeds. The health clinics conducted by the clubs are always well patronised, as responsible breeders are keen to have their dogs tested. Breeders are proud of cavs which are heart clear at 10, 11, 12 +. As proud of a BOB etc at a big show, as indeed they should be. The irresponsible will simply continue to do as they wish, and they will not wish to learn or understand, or to replace dogs with health problems with the healthy, because they do not know about problems, or they know and do not care. A small proportion of these are registered, the majority are unregistered or puppy farms. While TV shows and the public beat up responsible breeders,they become disheartened and walk away, leaving more pup sales for the others.

Send a private message through this board to Goldchow, who is a chow breeder, and does Chow rescue. Sengechow is another on this board with the breed, both could give you some relevant advice. May have "Sengechow"'s name wrong, so maybe check the members list There was also someone on the rescue forum searching for a rescue chow. I think you need really need advice from a chow breeder or someone who has owned a few of the breed. This breed is inscrutiably oriental, and I'm certainly not going to give advice, I don't have enough experience with this particular breed. And I doubt that some of the people replying have sufficient either.

Sounds as if you had fun, stonebridge. A very intelligent breed, with excellent reasoning powers, although sometimes they would like us to think otherwise!

I think there are very few Cavalier breeders who would breed if they thought there was even the smallest chance of a dog they bred having syringo. Most of the people producing dogs with syringo do it accidentally - because there is NO test, but I am sure that many people breeding are not aware of health issues. And more than half the Cavalier grand champions in this country are larger - right up on the top end of the weight standard - so if it was proven that the smaller dogs were the ones with SM, I doubt that responsible breeders would have any problem using larger dogs. However, numerous responsible registered cavalier breeders have decided not to breed further litters, because they are concerned about syringo, because they have no idea how to prevent it, and they have decided it is all too problematic. More sales for the puppy farms.

Nothing is clear in your posts. You don't go to jail for fondling strange dogs, so still waiting for an answer to my question Now add to that, stealing or using other people's property doesn't equate either I will leave you to your strange ponderings before my brain melts. Try this one Gareth..........if it doesn't belong to you...........leave it alone, keep your hands off it Try this one, Diablo. Do you have literacy problems? Do you have comprehension problems? Do you have minor aggression problems? If not, perhaps you would like to reread what you have written, or rethink your understanding of Gareth's post, and also reconsider your response? Was it appropriate? Was it valid?

Could I say ,that I live in Scotland ,and have been involved with the Cavalier Breed for many years as a Cavalier Pet Owner. I was pleased to see the UK CKCS CLUB's Complaint not upheld by Ofcom.As a result of the Pedigree Dogs Exposed TV Program, the Public have now been made aware of the Two Serious Health Diseases afflicting Cavaliers, Syringomyelia and MVD Heart Problems. If I may mention the Syringomyelia Disease in our Cavalier Breed.Last week at a Lecture here in Britain, there were Two MRI Scans shown . Both Cavaliers in the Two Scans had the same size of Brain, but the Cavalier with the Longer Nose and was Larger had no Syringomyelia, but the other Cavalier ,whose Brain was Housed in a Small Head ,had Syringomelia. There are now many Cavalier King Charles Spaniels around to-day with a Smaller Skull than they had about 25 years ago, and a number of Experts are asking ,is the Smaller Head of to-day's Cavaliers, part of the Syringomyelia Problem in the Cavalier Breed. Bet Hargreaves I don't think 2 dogs are any sort of proof at all. And I haven't seen any proof that smaller skulls lead to syringo - although the anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that is the case. However, we should beware of making any long ranging decisions without adequate research and statistics which prove the way we choose is the correct way. It takes a long time to rectify a mistake with a dog breed, and to make another whilst trying to rectify the first is a double disaster. However, the fact that syringo doesn't seem to exist in the pekingese breed, which has been small and,in the past smaller than the ones now being bred, suggest that the research is probably correct. Pekingese have been bred for many centuries. It did find the program was unfair to Virginia Barwell. Whatever, the program has now been used for a springboard to launch further animal rights agendas which concern purebred dogs. The result will be, as it was with docking and some other moves, to further reduce the number of proper registered purebred dogs bred, so all the arguments are moot, there will be very few Cavaliers in 15 years, if any at all. In this country, at least. Thats if the government, acting on that program with the urging of animal rights, doesn't ban the breeding of them altogether in the near future.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv/obb/prog_cb/ped...ogs_exposed.pdf It's 70 pages. The precis is below Pedigree Dogs Exposed 09|12|2009 Ofcom has today published its adjudications about the BBC1 programme Pedigree Dogs Exposed. The programme - broadcast on 19 August 2008 - looked at health and welfare problems in pedigree dogs and included criticisms of the Kennel Club, other clubs and individual dog breeders. Ofcom considered five complaints that the BBC programme was unfair; they came from the Kennel Club, the Rhodesian Ridgeback Club of Great Britain, the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club, Mr Michael Randall and Mrs Virginia Barwell. Ofcom found that there was not unfairness to the Kennel Club in the editing of the programme and that the Kennel Club was not deceived about the purpose of the programme. Allegations But it was not given a proper opportunity to respond to an allegation about eugenics and a comparison with Hitler and the Nazi Party; or an allegation that it covered up the nature of an operation carried out on a Crufts Best in Show winner. Ofcom found that, when the programme alleged that the Rhodesian Ridgeback Club of Great Britain was not doing all it could about a condition called Dermoid Sinus, it did not fairly represent the research on the subject. An inaccurate description of the breed's ridge was likely to have unfairly compounded the impression that the Club was choosing to breed deformed dogs. Summary of findings Finally, Ofcom found that the programme was unfair to Cavalier King Charles Spaniel breeder Mrs Virginia Barwell, as it did not convey her explanations for the very brief statements she was shown making in the programme. Ofcom did not uphold the complaints from the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club or Mr Michael Randall. Ofcom has directed the BBC to broadcast a summary of this adjudication.

Erny Course they are. And there are the bodies of 10,000+ dogs from Queensland alone to testify to that. How many from other states,I don't know. And 99% of those dogs were nice homey pets. If there were 10,000 pitbulls and pitbull crosses in Queensland, I will eat my akubra. Sandgrubber Who are the bad guys then? The RSPCA frames more and more laws which pass into legislation. The RSPCA employs mostly expolice with little animal knowledge. The RSPCA employs people with bad attitudes and demonstrable power issues. The RSPCA allows a conflict of interest in one state to continue until the whistle is blown in parliament, and in the media. The RSPCA frames unworkable laws which are not necessarily for the welfare of animals. The RSPCA continues to frame more and more draconian laws which will not improve the welfare of animals.The RSPCA endorsed the sale of eggs from the very worst type of factory farm, where fowls were kept in 30cm square cages on wire mesh floors. Because it was paid for the endorsement. The RSPCA, because it has no checks and balances, has been absolutely corrupted by absolute power. The citizens have no rights, no right of appeal, apart from the courts, which are generally inclined to made judgements in favour of the RSPCA. "Why would they have seized the XXXX unless there was cruelty?" Because they can. RSPCA inspectors have shown themselves to be extremely vindictive. There is also evidence that a particular class of person is regularly targetted by vendettas relating to animals with no particular problems. And those vendettas cause the people intense grief, stress and suffering No matter what anyone thinks of them, they should go and look at the photos of those cattle of Ruth Downeys - and then try to find excuses for the behaviour of the RSPCA. There are NO excuses. In fact, the RSPCA, imho, should have been prosecuted for gut shooting cattle which looked perfectly healthy, and were in remarkably good condition for drought cattle. Even if inspectors made errors classifying the cattle, there is still the question of animal cruelty perpetrated by the very people charged to prevent it. An organisation which has no checks or balances is a seriously dangerous organisation. This is not a totalitarian country, it is supposed to be a democracy. If the police force, or a government department, or a minister, or any other organisation did 10% of the things the RSPCA has been proven to do, there would be a Royal Commission, or a court case, yet this charity persists, year after year, doing whatever it bloody well likes. A charity has more power than the police. What does an organisation have to do for the public to understand they are "the bad guys". What does the public have to be shown to believe? Maybe they are better in WA? And to make Australia wide legislation? Never.

We shall just have to provide a vigilante system, and continue to provide it, to ensure that animal owners such as Rozzie, Judy Gard and asal and others are not treated undemocratically and unfairly by the RSPCA. If it is not possible for the RSPCA to make changes for equity and fairness from within. Vox

FAIR? FAIR? Fair is a joke. Very well said, Steve and Souff. This is the type of thing terrorists expect, not elderly ladies of good character keeping a few dogs for a hobby. I too would like to know the avenue for review.

Drawing agent as suggested, peroxide, as showdog suggested - peroxide is wonderful stuff. Otherwise, try a bran or bread poultice in a plastic bag held on with elastoplast

You know ..... good ol' ordinary mineral water (as opposed to tonic water) that you buy in the supermarket. It's not to say the mineral water will contain everything or all, but I do know of a few people who used it as an indicator of whether the dog was eating dirt through habit or whether they were only doing it because they were attempting to self-supplement. It's a cheap, sometimes successful but not necessarily reliable 'test'. That's what I thought you meant. Good idea, couldn't hurt. Never heard of it. Learn something new every day

I agree with Erny, sounds like a dietary deficiency. I'd go for a mineral/vitamin supplement, and you will find it wil stop. Add a spoonful of apple cider vinegar to their water or food as well. Or - mineral water, as Erny suggests. Although - oi, Erny, what is mineral water?