Jed

American Bull Dog is not recognized by the ANKC, so will not be in the dog breeds list - only for registered breeds. I believe there are breeders of both lines of bulldogs. Some are on the forum, so will probably answer you soon

Sandgrubber LOL at drunk! Lucky thing!! There have been articles in various magazines over the years, citing the originators of these terms, and the ones from the US blamed animal rights, PETA was named frequently. There is no hard evidence. It is more along the lines of "start a rumour" and judging by what was written, it started in USA, because breeders/writers there were concerned about it before it happened here. And it happened slowly. One thing at a time. I don't know that there is any hard evidence. But reading articles of that time, and following up through the years, you can see the changes - as I can, having lived it. "Don't breed unless you show" was, I think adopted by some of the breeders here, and probably in USA too as there is the same culture. I think it was easier for people who didn't show years ago, because there was no money in breeding dogs, and the presumption was that only people who liked dogs bred them, and they cared for them well. Breeders who liked showing did so, and the ones who didn't were accepted - maybe not accepted as well as those who did show, but not castigated as byb or puppy farmers (those terms weren't in use then anyhow) and there were no puppy farms. People who had 1 or 2 or 3 litters out of their bitch were quite accepted, because they usually had a decent bitch, and bred a couple of litters, using good (ke, titled) dogs. Big time show breeders would send puppy buyers to those people without any qualms. But there was certainly no culture that you were a baddie if you bred and didn't show. The latest one which has crept in is "don't beed unless you rescue". Where did that come from? There is an older lady who does the same thing she has been doing for years. She has 2 bitches, mates them, and sells the pups. She has never shown. The sires are usually well credentialled dogs. Owners of the dogs are happy for them to be used. I've never heard anyone in the breed refer to her as a BYB because she has been breeding as she does, for much longer than 98% of the people in the breed at present. Everyone knows who she is. The dogs are good quality, and she isn't doing anything wrong. It doesn't fit into the culture today, and if she BEGAN doing it today, she would be criticised. And there were lots of people who bred one or two litters, for fun, and with the encouragement of a registered breeder. I bought a few dogs from people like that, and it was accepted. Most of the new cultures - ie, "breed only for yourself", "breed only to improve the breed" came as rumours, and were soon adopted by those new breeders wanting to be seen to do the "right thing". And at the same time, came the culture of checking the CC magazine to see how many litters breeders had bred, and going "tsk tsk" if they bred what was perceived as "too many". Lots of older breeders think it is tripe, and do what they have always done!! Incidentally, breeding to improve the breed is now in most state COEs. It is a fairly recent addition. The COEs said nothing about it until some years ago. Today, the big registered kennels still continue to breed a lot of pups, and that is accepted, because they were doing it before the breeders who thought it was bad were interested in dogs. There are some which are called "registered puppy farms" - but never the older ones. Hazemar in Qld was a big kennel, Cockers and Cavaliers, show winners. No one would say a bad word about Hazel Meara, because she did it right, and she had been doing it before most of them started and she knew more than they did. Plenty of Hazmar cockers in cocker pedigrees too, and many a show person or breeder got a start with a Hazemar cocker. I mention her by name because she has passed on, and I don't like to mention people living, in case they are offended. Also, once upon a time, people with 50 or 60 or more dogs cared for them well, nothing was out of place, the dogs were well kept and well bred. And there were no puppy farms, so if you went somewhere and there were 100 or more dogs, you knew they were well cared for. And they were. Most of the breeders who have been doing it for 30 or more years will tell you the same thing. I don't like to have too many dogs. They are my pets first, and if I have too many, they cease to be pets. However, kennel dogs which are well cared for have a lot of benefits which house dogs don't - they have company all the time, they usually have a couple of friends, and they have a lot of freedom. They don't bond as much to the owner, they bond to each other. And the good kennels ensure all dogs do receive quite a lot of attention. Consider to the recent-ish PETA campaign in USA "Every dog you breed causes another dog to be put into a black plastic bag" or words to that effect. Rescuers believed it, the public believed it, and some of the breeders believed it, and didn't want to be responsible for that happening, so bred less. As there are few purebred dogs in pounds, we didn't need to take any notice, but we did. All those things, plus the usual attrition, cost of petrol, difficulties with councils, all led to a falling in the numbers of purebreds bred. The culture has also changed a great deal. There was a time when if you bred dogs, your workmates, people you met etc were interested, and invited themselves out to see the dogs, and were pleased. There was no criticism because you kept 6 or 8 dogs, and people who bought from kennels with 50 - 100 dogs didn't raise an eyebrow. These days you hate to mention that you breed dogs. Think about why the culture changed with the public from one of acceptance to one of approbation. The change happened very gradually, before there were puppy farms. And I have no proof, but if you can get you hands on Ringleaders, or even CC magazines from 20 or 30 years ago, you will notice a very different culture. Also, if you can find an older breeder, speak to them. Every breeder over 50 I know is appalled about what is happening. Last show I attended, a very old breeder, and an all breeds judge (retired), now in a nursing home, was there to watch. She hasn't bred or judged for years, but she keeps up to speed. The second thing she said to me was about the changes which have come in and those which are coming in - pre PDE - and how bad they were, and how much worse they will be. Unfortunately, the changes came in gradually, the culture changed slowly. Changed by dog lovers/breeders, who wanted to do the best thing by their dogs!!! I am concerned because I see more changes, also coming in gradually, and each one will be accepted - as none of them seem to be a big deal . But the small cumulative changes add up to one very big change. A complete change in culture. I have some old magazines here (hoarder!!) which might have similar articles to the one Steve posted, by different authors, but don't expect them tomorrow. And do try to talk to people who have been breeding for a long time. "Companion animal" is a term coined by Ingred Newkirk in (I think) 1999, 1992???. It is now accepted language in place of "pet" everywhere, including scientific papers. Newkirk wrote that part of stopping people having pets involved changing the language - in this case to "companion animal" which she believes has a different connotaton to "pet". And it does. So she has achieved that end without too much trouble. She was also bent on changing the culture, and she has done so. Some serious searching through archives would show where some of the other tenets we hold now originated. ;)

Congratulations. I hope you will post in the Boxer sub forum about him - with photos, of course

Sandgrubber "Labelling" in canine circles came into this country 15 - 20 years ago via America. Prior to that, the terms byb, puppy farmer etc had never been heard. According to reliable and published sources in the US, the terms came from animal rights movements and they then migrated to Australia. One of the things about having been around for a long time is that you have memories, and I can assure you that these terms are labelling. There is no oversupply of purebred dogs. And that is acording to the RSPCA. Every purebred dog in pounds which is sane and healthy is rehomed quite quickly, and usually for hundreds of dollars. There is an over supply of some classes of dogs. As I don't breed them, they are not my problem. I have rescued quite a few of them, but they still aren't my problem. The numbers of purebred dogs bred in Australia is in steady decline, as the ANKC stats show. Recent increases in numbers are largely due to registered puppy farmers who export to McDougall, rather than increases in registered pups avaialbe to purchase in Australia. The idea of "I only breed when I want to keep a pup" is another notion brought to us from USA, where it was fostered by animal rights. Once breeders bred to supply pets, or to make a few bob to keep the dogs going. Now all this is seen as filthy. Again, my memory tells me this is so, as does various articles over 15 - 20 years from breeders in America, charting where this notion arose. I also agree with limited register, to prevent unsuitable people breeding. Condemnation of people who breed without showing has driven some from the hobby, but those who breed in volume without showing are not phased by any condemation from within the hobby. Once, breeders encouraged those who bought a bitch to breed a litter or two, for the future of the breed, and to keep up the supply of pet pups. Buyers of good dog pups were encouraged to keep the dog entire, so that people could use him. If you wanted to breed from your pet bitch, your breeder would mentor you, and probably sell the pups for you, via their enquiries. Now breeding "pets" is seen as wrong. That notion arrived because the newer/younger breeders took up the culture coming into the country. If you buy quality from an "older" and more established breeder (ie, been going 20 years of more) you are likely still to buy on main register without any restrictions, than if you buy from someone who has been established for 10 years or so. Labelling, and changes which creep in gradually are seen as the "norm" by those who have only been in the hobby since those changes and labelling have been in force, so they see it as normal, and best practice, whether it is or not. Dogs ARE pets, and I personally think "breeding to improve the breed" means a lot more than breeding one for yourself. To me, it means putting good quality healthy pets out there in the public domain, so families may enjoy the fruits of my breeding, not having a closed enclave where breeders are the only ones who have purebred dogs. And I believe that because I was brought up in that culture, and in the culture where if you wanted to begin showing, a breeder would choose the very best pup they could for you, and give you as much help and advice as possible. When you bought a bitch pup, the breeder asked if you would like to breed, not restricted you as much as possible. Commercial breeders saw the gap in the market when the registered dog numbers fell .... people wanted purebred dogs, but had very long waits. And soon we had 20, 30, 300 dog kennels supplying the public with purebred and crossbred dogs. Because the registered breeders were not producing enough for the demand. They were only breeding for themselves. I put most of my dogs on limited register, because they are going to be pets, and I know the owners will spey them. However, if someone wants to breed, and they are genuine I choose a good dog, and give them all the help I can. For the good of the breed. There have been many articles, in dog magazines both here and in the USA in similar vein to those articles Dr. Battaglia authored, written by people as well known and successful. I think they have been appearing for at least 15 years. And I believe that article because I have seen the culture change during my life as a breeder. And none of those c hanges, imho, have been for the better.

hI Steve, Yes, I know. I actually misread the sense of your post, although I never read it as a cav bash, realised after I had posted, and couldn't be bothered going back to fix it, so I should apologise to you!! We are on the same page, anyhow.

Quickasyoucan I think the first statement about inbreeding till the gene pool is so reduced that you have to outcross is right - but studies with rats etc show that they get healthier and bigger after a lot of crosses. I don't know that anyone has done it with dogs. I notice that the wolves that they were jumping up and down about because the gene pool was so reduced seem to be ok, and they will be ok for a lot longer than formerly thought. Maybe Irish terriers didn't have any bad problems to begin with? I have a friend who has been line breeding for years,(30? 40?)before there were any tests and I'd go there in a flash for a dog. She was careful about what she used. If you have a closed gene pool, you can't introduce any nasties you don't know about, which is what steve is saying about cross breeding. I don't know much about it, but there's my 2/- worth!! I personally think the whole thing is a beat up, and there is not much truth in it, but a lot of hysteria and hyperbole. All the studies I've read on in breeding seem to pruduce the goods in the end. I'm not planning to inbreed for 20 generations anyhow, and there is little inbreeding done with pedigree dogs, so there is no need for all the drama - except it fits into the agenda, which is not about purebred dogs getting healthier any time soon. However, if you want a "line" in your kennel, you do need to line breed, which is NOT inbreeding. I wanted a line, and I've pretty well got one, but I haven't done any first generation matings to get my line, although I have mated relatives. No signs of anything deleterious in the dogs themselves. Steve - Cavs are not the only breed to suffer from MVD, nor are they the only breed to suffer from SM. I can probably find you some references, although I did find one on SM which Mita read. There are others on MVD across breeds. And I think they should be contained, rather than being spread around to other breeds, mixed breeds etc. Most cavs are outcrosses, with very little line breeding done. And if you look at a pedigree without similar dogs on it, the dog itsels may still have MVD. All the sources I've read or heard says nothing past the 5th generation makes much difference to the dog itself, so how come they are now talking about the same dog twice on the 12th line being a problem? Is what I've read/learned wrong? Are all those breed societies who accept F4 as pure, and have done for years, wrong? Was the UK KC wrong when it accepted Steynmere's 5th and 6th generation away from the corgi with botails as purebred boxers? And genetic tests show they have no corgi in them. I know that is only 1 cross, not inbreeding, but if it works for 1 dog, it will work for 2 dogs. I know they are saying that the dog himself will have 25% of dog X who was used on the 9th and 10th line, but what's the difference between him being a grandfather once, and twice back in the pedigree? Maybe I need help. Maybe I've been reading pedigrees wrong. Maybe the people who taught me have been reading them wrong too? Naw, I don't think so. I think there is a lot of twaddle being talked.

.well, I wouldn't have liked to say that about you,but seeing as you raised the matter ........ I have to agree

Most surgeries have smug pussies hanging around. And there are also cats which are brought in to see the vet. It's a good training exercise for the dog. Ignore the pussies. Ignore the other animals, some may be sick, don't mug the owners. What a great opportunity!! I am sure vet surgery cats are vaccinated, so they probably aren't likely to catch anything.

I answered "no" to the reporting question too. Medical staff have an avenue to report dog bites now. I would presume if the bite was a bad one or the medical staff weren't happy about it, they would report it. I thought about whether reporting all bites would be useful for stats, but I wonder whether the dog's breed would be reported accurately, particularly as it would be given 2nd hand. Like Erny, it bothers me a bit that there could be false stats - if you stand on your chihuahua and he takes a chunk out of your toe, I would not like him to be declared, and you probably wouldn't either, and if you were the right type of person, you could blame the ACD next door for the bite Some surveys in the past have come back to bite us, so I concentrated on sentences where they were possible, giving my point of view. The survery looked to me as if the gov was justifying bringing in more/different rules, and wanted to justify them. But I am a bit paranoid, maybe they did want to know what people think.

That's a pretty big assumption to make. Not an assumption at all, a question. Unlike many on this forum, I try not to make assumptions. The op has a lot of threads asking about breeding. Seems a lot of questions about issues which are not relevant to the purchase and keeping of a pet puppy, and I would like to know why someone who is purchasing a pet is asking as many or more questions about breeding as about pet keeping! Assumption - insinuation...whatever. It wasnt fair. Fair? FAIR? What's fair? if you post on an open forum, and someone asks you a question, that's fair. It was A QUESTION. If you don't like that, tough. If you presumed it was an assumption, you should check your comprehension levels. The op has answered the question, anyhow. Thanks jess live die

That's a pretty big assumption to make. Not an assumption at all, a question. Unlike many on this forum, I try not to make assumptions. The op has a lot of threads asking about breeding. Seems a lot of questions about issues which are not relevant to the purchase and keeping of a pet puppy, and I would like to know why someone who is purchasing a pet is asking as many or more questions about breeding as about pet keeping!

Why are you asking all these breeding questions (as well as all the other questions) - you going into the puppy farm business?

Not that I've ever seen.

I hope you will take the advice given, and get a trainer/behaviourist who is experienced with the breed. They are very different from other breeds, and need to be treated accordingly. I know this is not a chow, but the dog may well accept the baby as part of the pack. I had a middle aged boxer, who had absolutely no experience with children when my first baby arrived. She was a very protective dog, and very much "my" dog, although she had no temperament issues. Without any special preparation, she accepted the baby as part of "her family" and there were never any problems. She accepted the baby as she accepted me, anything the baby did was all good, and she accepted the child as a toddler and a child. Accept the help the chow breeders have offered, they are the ones who can offer relevant help.

I have one the size of a little fingernail removed from a 2 year old boxer. We thought it was a wart,but the vet got wide margins. Not sure what the gradings were, but there were no further problems. Dogs don't seem to have a huge problem with chemo, and I suppose you need to make a choice based on age of the dog, site of the tumour, vet's recommendation, etc. Good luck. Hope it all turns out well.

If you are not comfortable with it now, you will be less comfortable with it when it happens, and in the coming 2 or so years. Walk away, and buy a pup without any strings.

Sandgrubber If "we" refers to breeders, we already do. I know the major diseases my breeds are liable to acquire, and how (when known). I have personally to research into some of these, as opposed to the mandatory donation which my CC takes from puppy registrations. I also have a litte black book with noted hereditary problems in lines in my breeds, which I add to when necessary. I think all responsible breeders do the same thing. What bothers me is the spin off coming from this. Very similar to what happened prior to BSL and anti docking laws (as well as some other draconian laws overseas). It also bothers me that the report couldn't get the name of the breed right - or maybe they did mean King Charles Spaniels, which despite having a domed head, also suffer from SM I don't think most breeders will want to be told by "someone" that that cannot use this line, it is too close, or they cannot use that dog, or that the pups must be microchipped at birth, or the bitch checked by the vet every time pre mating, or checked post whelping (which is already law in Vic). Bet Hargreaves - absolutely no idea.

The usual suspect Paul D. McGreevyb Isn't that the one where they take the supposition, and find the stats to prove it? More frightening by the moment.

I'm afraid emails of this nature are usually deleted by me. I used to take lots of time to send positive, educational emails with breed club contacts, polite requests for further info to help them in their puppy quest, ect. or at the very least a copy/paste response with similar information. And NOT one of those types of email folk ever replied, not even to thank me for my reply. So unless they show some kind of basic manners / introduction ect. I just don't have the enthusiasm to reply. fifi I figure most emails which read like that are from wheel spinners (or nosy people, like Rastus Froggy ) but I do answer them, but not at any length. Like you, I used to, and then it became obvious that few of them were serious. To that email, I would respond with the truth - ie, price, yes, I do have some left. Are you seeking male or female pup? Do you want a pet, or a show puppy? And leave it there. If they get back to me, I am happy to continue the dicussion. If not, I just wasted 5 minutes of my life. However, I am aware that both my breeds have far more buyers than pups, and for all I know the person who sent me the email might have made 49 unsuccessful enquiries prior to contacting me, so I don't want to dishearten them further if they are genuine. And I don't bother with the bamboo skewers under the fingersnals or the 40,0000 w lights until I am reasonably sure that the enquirer is serious - which is NOT at the first response. I might turn over 6 peoiple to find the right home, and I don't want to give false hope to the unsuitable. Sometimes, strange enquiries lead to excellent lifetime homes, so I always allow for that when I respond. As far as main register is concerned - the puppy farmers don't care which register it is on, if any, as long as it has fur and genitals. Fur is usually optional with them too. I ascertain, via secret breeders' means, whether they are genuine or not, and if they are genuine, the pup might as well be on main, because they wont do anything wrong with it. Although the pets do go on limited.

Quick, where's Don Burke when you need him? And, Christina, when you list everything, it makes you ask yourself WTF?

lilli, in my life with animals, I have had a few of what I call "defining moments". This happens when someone says something to me which goes directly to some part of my brain, and turns on floodlilghts illuminating that which has been hidden, or mysterious. One such moment happened years ago - sitting on my horse in the arena, trying to accomplish a movement. It was the middle of summer, sweat was pouring down my back and my face, my hair was falling everywhere, and the horse would NOT get it right. I'd got to the state of saying "well, I feed you, and care for you, and treat you well, you SHOULD do this for me". Coz nothing else had worked. Ze Cherman inztructor, who had been quietly watching, came over, and said "apply ze left zeat, zit down, put ze leg on the horse, forward, forward, pick up ze rein, forward, good, forward AND acrozz, forward and acrozz, lead ze horse a little viz ze right rein, ze legz, ze legz, forward and ACROZZ - forward firzt ZEN acrozz! Bring ze rein back, ztraighten ze neck, hold ze neck ztraight, forward ZEN acrozz. And there we were, my horse and I, doing that canter half pass which had eluded us before - straight across the diagonal, round the corner, and across again. And ze instructor said "zee, he iz a very good horze, no? Now make much, rezt and do it again". And that taught me exactly how to ask for the movement, when nothing else had. And doing it came easily after that, on that horse, and other horses. Ze inztructor somehow turned a light on in what passes for my brain!! I've been breeding dogs for a while, and I am particular about their temperament, I like them just so. But, do you know, I never realised that I was breeding them with good nerves. Confident, bold, outgoing dogs, not frightened of loud noises or new situations, dogs who are never fear aggressive. Thank you for telling me When you wrote about nerve in another thread, the floodlight in my brain went on I never said I was too bright!!

That's excellent. I do hope it makes its way into the mainstream media, as well as Dog News and National Dog. I know the "local papers" in this area are as well read as the major paper.

According to stats, vet is the lowest paid profession at graduation level. Doctors are paid about $K20 more at base rates, and most earn morel. Vet is harder than medicine, I think vets should be recompensed adequately. However, as vet pracrises hire them, their rationale is that most new grads only generate enough income in the first couple of years to warrant the low salary. And I guess if the new grad is taking 1 1/2 hours to spey a cat, and all the "difficult" enquiries have to be handled by a senior vet, they do have a point!! Tough on the new grads though, who have starved through vet school, probably worked their tails off to do. a few subjects a semester, had a part time job (stewarding at the greyhounds is a winner, used to be $55 hour, better than Maccas, and you get to be around dogs), given most of their uni holidays to prac work, had to buy a car to get to the prac work, and are faced with very low wages.

And my vet, who sees lots of breeders, would say "WTF? How the hell would I know, you're the breeder" Even my repro vet would only advise on health issues, not the choice of dog. He wouldn\t have a clue whether the dog was any good or not, only whether he was healthy. Nor should he have. They're VETS not breeders. I wouldn't ask the fridge repairer what brand of car to buy Some of these people writing reports should be strung up by the personal bits to dry for a couple of weeks, and maybe then they would have some sense. They seem to be good at putting expectations in all the wrong places.

jdavsi, as illustrated too well by this discussion I had with a puppy farmer a few years ago ME You ought not to be breeding with that line of Cavaliers, as it does have MVD PF What's MVD? I explained PF Well, it doesn't mater because the pet shop takes the pups, and it's not my problem, especially if it wont come on until they are a few years old. I don't think it is important And the fact that an older cocker bitch seized in a pf raid gave birth at the RSPCA. She is blind. I would imagine she is affected by PRA, so some of the pups will also be affected by PRA. But the pf was still breeding from her. Did she know it was PRA? Probably not. And what's worse, she woudn't have cared. At UQ, it is very basic - the basic recessive and dominant genes, a bit on reproduction, gestation times for all species. They do several (or more) subjects per semester, depending on the difficulty level and amount of study required. I think repro is a semester subject. They do learn the basics of birthing. If they do prac in a piggery, for instance, the piggery staff will show them how to farrow, same with dairies, and if they go to vets who have breeder clients, they will probably see vets deliver pups, and the aftercare at the surgery. The rationale is that vets who wish to specialise in reproduction, or even know a bit more about it as a gp will do further study themselves, either after graduation, or by joining a practice with a repro specialist, or vet who services breeders. Most do the study themselves. My experience is that most gp vets dont know much about it. A lot of vets learn about dog breeding from breeders. And no, vet school doesn't get down to what breeds are prone to what. In fact, it doesn't get down to dog breeds, and many new grads couldn't pick a schnauzer from a pug. I had a beautiful litter of boxers vac once. The vet commented on how well grown, shiny and friendly they were, which was gratifying. She told me they were very healthy, and then leaned in, and very confidingly said in a very disappointed voice "they are ALL undershot". She was so sad that my beautiful pups had one huge fault. I replied, just as confidingly "they are supposed to be". She was amazed. Continuing learning!! I remember once getting a vet who had graduated a few years prior, to a difficult whelping. I had to tell her how much oxytocin to give. One pup arrived flaccid, not breathing. She put him aside - "he's dead". NO WAY. I resuscitated him, and she was amazed, didn't know you could do that. Not bagging her at all, but they do learn as they go.