DogsAndTheMob

This popped up in my FaceBook feed a few days ago. https://www.trybooking.com/events/landing/1122075 “Forensics & Understanding Severe Dog Aggression: Jim Crosby” I can’t attend, but I was interested enough to google the presenter, Jim Crosby, and found a few long podcast-style interviews with him. They were well worth listening to. He didn’t answer your question directly but did talk about developing a comprehensive dog attack assessment scale to evaluate, among other things, suitability for rehabilitation. This will be built around the Dunbar scale plus other factors including “persistence “ and “perseverance “… how hard the dog had to work to get to the victim and how long the dog persisted with the attack. He also said (paraphrasing) that aggression is a natural survival response in most species but the appropriateness of the scale of the aggression needs to be considered. Also of interest… The most frequent group of fatal attacks in the US are on women in their 30s in their own homes by dogs they own or are caring for. The next most frequent are on toddler boys. He said “big dogs cause big holes and little dogs cause little holes” but went on to say that dogs as small as papillons have killed people in the US. He was scathing about breed specific legislation, about the systems used by many shelters to assess suitability for rehoming (especially those using artificial hands in food dishes or child dolls) and about “trainers” who display their bite scars as badges of honour.

I’m so sorry you have had such unhappy experiences! I’m not a breeder and never have been but I have owned and adored 11 pedigree dogs (if my finger-count is correct )and I’ve been involved in dog sports for many years. I can’t agree with everything in your first post. Looking at your points sequentially… 1. Huh? Since when has a FaceBook presence been evidence of ethical behaviour? Anyone can set up a FaceBook account. 2. That sounds reasonable in theory, but I’m not sure how useful a contract is in practice. I don’t insist on a contract because I suspect the costs of enforcing it would be greater than any probable refund or compensation. When my 14 week old puppy died of congenital kidney disease, the breeder refunded the cost of the puppy, despite the lack of a contract. 3. Of course you should listen to what people say, with the caveat that not every complaint is founded in truth and common sense. 4. The appropriate response to a defect will vary. For example, the heritability of hip dysplasia has been estimated at between 20% and 80%, depending on breed and method of measurement. https://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/an-update-on-hip-dysplasia-in-dogs This means that up to 80% of cases are caused or substantially influenced by environmental factors or chance, or would not be diagnosed as hip dysplasia if a different diagnostic method was used. Should a breeder be asked to compensate for a defect that may have developed by chance or because the owner failed to appropriately balance the calcium:phosphorus ratio in the puppy’s diet? When one of my dogs scored poorly in the AVA/ORCHID hip scoring scheme, I did not ask for compensation. It’s also important to remember that many breeders producing the best dogs are hobbyists, making do on limited incomes, and any “profit” from their litters is spent breeding better dogs or proving the quality of their dogs. They simply don’t have the money to cover unlimited veterinary costs. When my puppy was diagnosed with congenital kidney disease, I was quoted $12,000 for Emergency weekend care and specialist veterinary examination BEFORE any treatment commenced. With no likelihood that the puppy would survive, I opted for euthanasia, but I certainly would not have presented the breeder with a $12,000+ bill and demanded payment. Nor did I ask the breeder to pay my actual costs of over $1000. When I purchase a puppy, I accept that it is a living thing that does not come off a production line providing identical items of identical quality. I do my best to ensure that the breeder is following best practices and breeding quality dogs. There is no more that I or the breeders can do. 5. Yes, breeders should refund deposits promptly if they are unable to provide a puppy as agreed. 6. Breeders should be able to show documentary evidence that they are ANKC (Dogs Australia) members and breeders, and that the parents of the litter have Main Register pedigree certificates as well as all health testing and scoring recommended for the breed. They should provide photos of the puppy’s parents and related dogs, and of the puppies if available. They should also be able to talk knowledgeably about the breed, their breeding program and how they raise their puppies. This discussion is also an opportunity for the purchaser to assess whether whether the breeder’s goals align with what they want. I prefer to see the parents (and ideally related dogs) before I commit to purchasing a puppy, particularly if I don’t know the pedigree well. If the breeder has concerns about bringing strangers into their home, perhaps the purchaser could meet up with them at a dog show or elsewhere. 7. I would not pay a deposit on a puppy that had not been born. Nor would I pay the full amount more than a week before the collection date. 8. Under normal circumstances, I would not expect to wait more than a couple of months for papers. In fact, on most occasions the breeder has provided the pedigree certificates when I collected the puppy. However, I have heard of delays occurring in Queensland as a result of problems with the mandatory DNA parentage testing.

In all fairness, I’m not sure that the health system will cover all treatment costs, at least in a timely fashion. Hospital funding cover will cover immediate, acute surgical repairs and outpatient care in public hospitals and Medicare should cover most out-of-hospital medical care. If she requires later reconstructive surgery, she may need to join a long waiting list for publicly funded surgery. If she has private health insurance (Medibank, HCF, NIB etc), she could “jump the queue” for reconstructive surgery but would probably need to pay a fairly substantial gap. However, I’m not a fan of the current trend for media-savvy and apparently relatively affluent people to appeal for financial support whenever they encounter adversity. Most people have a limited amount of discretionary funding that they can give to the less fortunate, and I think that money should be directed towards those in dire financial need.

This is horrifying.. a different type of breeder. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-64346415

This is a useful resource if you’re looking for snake IDs or other information about snakes: https://m.facebook.com/groups/1842921039241229/?ref=share

This is an old news story but I think it illustrates how complex and unexpected the causation of dog attacks can be. https://www.9news.com.au/world/drugged-up-staffie-kills-crack-addict-owner-in-front-of-bbc-film-crew/d4db461f-3dcb-450b-9cdc-d8388eb8568b

Reports that at least one of the dogs continued to attack the owner until shot by police makes this seem very different from the typical dog fight to me. I’ve witnessed several dog fights over the years and even separated the dogs in a few fights. I know that dogs are adrenaline-driven in those circumstances and may accidentally bite people trying to separate them, but the only dog I’ve ever seen redirect towards its owner had severe temperament problems. To the contrary, I’ve seen dogs turn, snarling, towards the people separating them, then immediately switch into appeasement behaviour when they saw that they had snarled at people, not the dog they were fighting. However, I don’t think Rottweilers or Rottweiler breeders generally should be held responsible and I wouldn’t rush to blame even the breeder of the dogs involved. There are so many other factors that may have led to this tragedy from simple lack of understanding of dog psychology to deliberate incitement of aggression (not necessarily by the owner).

The marks look more like scratches than punctures. I wonder if the boy squeezed the dog and it scratched him trying to escape. It’s probable that we’ll only hear the mother’s side of the story because privacy laws will prohibit school staff and the dog handler from commenting on the incident. On the other hand, I imagine the dogs might be sensitised by ongoing exposure to noise and rough play then triggered by a minor event so I hope that trainers and handlers, as well as dogs, have comprehensive training for the in-school support dog program and that dogs have regular wellness checks.

The Border Collie standard then, as now, simply said “White should never predominate.” However, in practice, breeders and judges were very finicky about markings. A friend got a puppy that was the pick of the litter conformation-wise because its breeder would not keep and show a puppy that did not have a full collar. It would make sense to ensure that breed standards are consistent with genetics. I have never thought it reasonable that the Newfoundland standard allows 3 colours: black, brown white with black markings. Why is white with brown markings not acceptable?

Interestingly, it is more common for border collies to have half white or even fully white heads and solid coloured bodies than solid coloured heads and white bodies. In fact, I have never seen the latter. A performance-breeder I knew bred quite a few litters with puppies with half-white heads. In most litters, both parents were “Irish spotted” and the ratios of Irish spotting to half white heads was about 3: 1 - consistent with a recessive gene. However, one dog seemed to sire even numbers of pups with solid coloured heads and half-white heads. That could have been due to chance but he had a wide collar and a very wide blaze, so I wondered if he carried two copies of the gene that in most cases produces puppies with half-white heads.

I’ve owned German Shepherds, Border Collies, Golden Retrievers, a Siberian Husky, a Brittany and a miniature poodle (maybe - he was a rescue and was either a poodle-cross or a backyard bred poodle). I’ve loved all my dogs for different reasons and I can’t nominate a favourite breed. I loved my first German Shepherds for their combination of common-sense, intuitiveness and protectiveness. I loved my last German Shepherd because she was the sweetest, ditsiest dog who introduced me to the simplicity of owning a dog with no protective, predatory or even herding behaviours. If I could get another German Shepherd like my first heart dog, I would in an instant. I love my Brittany for the combination of intelligence and mischief that seems to be a characteristic of the breed. However, Brittanies are a high-energy, hunting breed, Velcro at home and very independent when running the fields, so I don’t know whether I could give another Brittany the home it deserves. My mini poodle was the opposite of the breed stereotype… brave, stoic, quiet and very loyal. Maybe that was because he’d lived on the streets before being rescued but I’d love another dog like him. I could talk about the fun of Border Collies, the fascination of my husky’s cat-like expressions or the ease of living with a Golden Retriever but I’m sure you’ve read enough about my dogs.

It depends. I would be very cautious about rescuing a puppy from unscreened parents. I would want to know other indicators of risk, such as the incidence of the disorders of concern in the breed and the apparent health of related dogs. A puppy from an oops mating between dogs that compete successfully in agility or retrieving trials might be less risky than one from a mating between two screened dogs whose hips were okay but not excellent. I would also want to know why the puppy was in rescue. Were there known but undisclosed health problems? I would want to be sure that I was not supporting deliberate unethical practices. With an adult rescue, I think the fact that the dog had reached maturity in good health might offset the lack of screening in the parents, because low hip scores reduce but do not eliminate the risk of orthopaedic disease in offspring. You may find this interesting, in particular the table showing the risk of hip dysplasia for matings of dogs with different hip scores. It would also be worth seeking out the referenced research paper on weight and hip dysplasia in Labrador Retrievers. I found it a real eye opener. I’m less convinced by the tables of breeds with high and low incidences of hip dysplasia. So much would depend on which dogs were being hip scored in each breed. https://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/citizen-scientists-lets-do-something-about-hip-dysplasia

I’m not in any way downplaying the horror of what happened to that dog and owner and I absolutely agree that it should not have happened. However, labelling every event as a dog attack means that the owners of large dogs say “my dogs are sweet natured”, think their dogs would never attack another dog and do not realise the damage their dogs could do.

I found yesterday’s “dog attack” report in the media very distressing. I can only imagine the terror of the person floundering in mud, holding their small dog in their arms and trying to protect it from two wolfhounds. But I wish the media wouldn’t immediately label events like this as “dog attacks”. I don’t know what happened and (as was pointed out in another thread) a small dog can look like prey to large hunting dogs, but I doubt if the media knew which dog(s) were the instigator(s). Immediately labelling such events as “dog attacks” builds public fear about aggressive dogs but does nothing to educate dog owners. Owners of large dogs believe that their dogs would never attack a smaller dog and owners of small dogs see their dogs as potential victims. So nobody is prompted to consider whether they should manage their own dog more carefully. The reality is that any fight between two dogs of different size could end very badly. Both small dogs and large dogs can instigate fights out of fear, “feistiness “ or predatory instinct, and once a fight starts, the fight/flight response prevents both dogs from calming down. It is our job to manage our dogs to minimise the risks and our responsibility to try to choose dogs that we can manage safely. If the media talked about “fatal dog fights” unless or until they had evidence that it was an unprovoked attack, that might help to educate the public.

Thank you! That’s very useful information. I was just reading a veterinary dentist’s blog which mentioned ball therapy but didn’t give details. The blog also said that tooth removal can weaken the jaw, so if the teeth don’t improve with a few weeks of ball therapy and maturation, I’ll consult a veterinary dentist in preference to my generalist vet.

My 14 month old Golden Retriever has slightly misaligned lower canine teeth. The worse canine presses into the gum behind the top canine and the better one presses against the top canine. Her incisors are well positioned but her lower jaw feels narrow in comparison with her upper jaw. The vet suggested removal of one or both lower canines. Her breeder hasn’t seen this problem before and isn’t sure whether removal is advisable but did say that my dog’s head hasn’t finished filling out. Looking through old posts here, I have seen comments that the lower jaw grows out later than the upper jaw. Questions: Might the position of her lower canines correct itself as she finishes maturing or is that unlikely, given her age? If her lower canines are removed before her lower jaw finishes growing, will that adversely affect her bite or other aspects of her jaw structure? If her lower canines are not removed promptly, will that adversely affect her jaw structure? Is it reasonable to have the lower canines removed when she is spayed, thus sparing her two anaesthesias?

Here: https://www.smh.com.au/national/maltese-terrier-joins-dangerous-dog-list-20091025-hehr.html#:~:text=They may look friendly and,the latest Dog Attack Register. I remember this story from the era when puppy mills were selling many “Maltese” puppies via pet shops. At the time, I thought it was unfair to label the breed in that way, because of the number of crossbred puppies sold as Maltese. Even though I’ve usually owned German Shepherds or other larger dogs and the only dog that ever bit me was a neighbour’s Jack Russell, I also thought (and still think) that it’s unrealistic to quantify dangerousness in a small dog by the same standard as dangerousness in a large dog. An aggressive Maltese might harm children, other small dogs, cats and small pets, but an aggressive large dog such as a German Shepherd could easily kill even an adult. I thought the same… Banning of those breeds by the QLD Government might have minimal impact because importation of those breeds has been banned for many years. I’m unfamiliar with the Japanese Tosa and was interested to look up the breed description. I’m glad that their importation is banned. I find the idea of a 90kg dog with dog-fighting ancestry quite perturbing. Even if 99% of Japanese Tosas were totally unaggressive, that one aggressive dog in a hundred would be very difficult for even the strongest person to control. Generally though, I don’t see much value in more breed bans. The sort of people who want big, intimidating dogs to boost their ego will just choose a different large, intimidating breed or cross-breed. IMO, the owners of dangerous dogs should face more penalties than the dogs. For example, it might be good to require anyone who has owned a declared dangerous dog to undergo a course of training or period of probation before acquiring another large dog.

It’s possible, I think. Blue fawn would be the blue dilute of black and tan. The wording of the American Staffordshire Terrier standard says “all white, more than 80% white, black and tan, and liver not to be encouraged.” The wording for the Staffordshire Bull Terrier standard says “Black and tan or liver colour highly undesirable.” I read that as implying that the recessive alleles for tan markings occur in both breeds. I’m more curious about the place from which the puppies were stolen. The news report says puppy pen, which doesn’t really tell us anything. Was it at puppy day-care, a pet-shop, a puppy mill or…?

We have three dogs at present but we’ve had up to six, when we’ve cared for dogs whose owners (relatives) have been unwell or travelling. I enjoy the energy of more dogs but there are increasing difficulties with larger numbers. Space in the car is problematic. I laughingly call my border collie a “manspreader” because he seems to take up as much space in the car as he can. Holiday accommodation is even more problematic, so I put holidays in the too-hard basket. My dogs get on well, but we rarely leave all three alone together. I’ve seen the consequences of a two-on-one dog fight. They weren’t my dogs but it took years for me to get over the experience. When my husband and I both go out, we leave one dog in the house or front garden and the other two in the back yard. Games need supervision. All three of our dogs play happy games together but the smallest, who weighs 16 kg to the other dogs’ 25+ kg, occasionally seems uncomfortable playing with two larger dogs. It helps to have dogs with the same play style. Herding breeds, in particular, play games which can sometimes be overwhelming for other dogs… and many of them bark when excited!

Honestly, I’m not sure. On an ethical level, should other pets receive poorer quality or lower cost veterinary care than dogs and cats? What veterinary care is, or will soon be, available for other pets? What are the costs of that care?

IMO, the biggest shame about this story is that it trivialises an important issue… that owning and taking good care of a pet is becoming a big luxury. There is an increasing pressure to pay more to feed our dogs than to feed ourselves and to routinely treat our dogs with a greater variety of (usually expensive) preventative medications than ever before. On top of that, emergency vet care costs have skyrocketed from hundreds of dollars to thousands and potentially tens of thousands. The up side of this is that it’s at least partially because of better and more available diagnostic procedures and treatments. The downside is that people could easily become trapped into debt spirals. The couple in this story are almost a caricature of “first world problems “. I watched an interview in which she really did complain about having to sell her designer handbags! But the same scenario could easily happen to a family in financially precarious circumstances. It’s easy to see how people could opt for treatment then find it difficult to say “enough” as costs spiral (there’s a branch of psychology called “sunk cost theory” which explains this.) I don’t know that vets are to blame, either. Most get into that career because they love animals and it might be equally difficult for a vet who initially described a hopeful prognosis to recommend euthanasia after investing time, effort and emotions into patient care. And they need to cover their costs in order to stay in business. I’m not convinced that pet insurance provides reliable protection, either. So many things seem to be considered as pre-existing conditions and increasing monthly costs can make insurance prohibitively expensive as dogs get older - just when the insurance is most likely to be needed. In short, I don’t think there are any easy answers but if a young person asked advice about getting a pet, I’d probably advise them to think twice about getting one at all.

I follow a snake identification FB group. Herpetologists in that group have posted photos and video of snakes in as far south as Melbourne sun-baking on cool winter days. I don’t know whether those snakes are less likely to bite, but they may be less commonly encountered in winter because they stay closer to their resting places. But I’m no expert. I wonder if the higher mortality rate in dogs bitten during winter reflects reality or it’s a random consequence of the small sample size.

This is an interesting study on snakebite in dogs in Southeast Queensland. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/avj.13159 The seasonal distribution of cases is interesting but scary. There are cases throughout the year with only May, June and July having substantially lower risk - but not no risk. I was surprised by the high proportions of staffies and Jack Russells among the cases, although perhaps I shouldn’t have been. ”There were 88 dogs and 3 cats. The dogs comprised of 21 Staffordshire Bull Terriers and 4 Staffordshire Bull Terrier crossbreds, 10 Jack Russel Terriers, 3 Labrador Retrievers and 2 Labrador Retriever crossbreds, 2 Australian Cattle Dogs and 2 Australian Cattle Dog crossbreds, 2 American Staffordshire Terriers and 1 American Staffordshire Terrier crossbred, 2 Boxers and 1 Boxer crossbred, 1 Bull Arab and 2 Bull Arab crossbreds, 1 Kelpie and 2 Kelpie crossbreds, 1 Toy Poodle and 1 Toy Poodle crossbred, 1 Fox Terrier and 1 Fox Terrier crossbred, 2 Great Dane crossbreds, 1 Miniature Fox Terrier and 1 Miniature Fox Terrier crossbred, 1 Rhodesian Ridgeback and 1 Rhodesian Ridgeback crossbred, 2 Weimaraners and 1 each of a wide variety of other breeds and crossbreds. Age, gender and bodyweight from these cases are presented in Table 2; only age was associated with mortality status (P = 0.007). The cats comprised 1 male neutered Burmese, 1 male neutered Ragdoll and 1 female spayed Domestic Shorthair.”

For the Shar Pei enthusiasts on DOL… This handsome dog is looking for a home. https://www.adoptapet.com.au/pet/a_362052

That’s a really good point. It seems that sometimes the interpretation gets ahead of the science and questionable beliefs get embedded in our culture.