KathP

Hi Becky, If you're seriously considering a rescue dog, then maybe try posting in the rescue forum about your living situation etc and the kind of dog you're after. I'm sure if any of the rescues have someone who would suit they'd be quick to reply, and there will be plenty of good advice. There are also plenty of furbabies listed in there looking for homes. Also take a look at Pet Rescue. Good luck!

I'm with you too Bully. It's also a good idea to move them so that any scavengers or other animals investigating don't also get hit.

Good on you slowone I'm all for alternative therapies - prefer them to conventional medicine.

Thanks for all the replies. We have started implementing lots of little things, and there has been some improvement. Leadership isn't really an issue with her, she definitely doesn't think she's the leader, and is actually quite submissive. We have discovered she is better if left locked inside when we're not here. She still barks, though not as much, and the neighbours certainly are happier. There are only 2 days when we are both gone all day, so now the OH comes home in his lunch break to let them out to the toilet and have a bit of a run. I also get up earlier on these days so they get a big walk and a game before we leave. Along with everything we were already doing, we have started locking the dogs outside with things to chew for periods while we're at home, and we're now up to 30mins with just the odd bark. We are also teaching them to stay for longer and longer periods while we are out of their sight. These two are difficult as our old JRT is most uncooperative and usually starts crying first, or breaks the stay. We are reinforcing leadership by having lots of short periods of training (sit, drop, stay, come, shake etc) and my OH is learning that they are not to get any treats unless they at least sit first. Part of the battle is getting him to be consistant with this too. Also lots more time when they can't sit with us, and doing simple things like having a closed door between me/us and the dogs for varying periods. Since it's just the two of us we would rarely bother closing the door to shower, get dressed etc, but now we do! We haven't started the bone over the fence thing yet - and yes we had considered it might be a reward for barking, so the idea is to socialise her with the neighbours, which they are happy to do, and she gets the bone as a reward not for barking but for being quiet and sitting. They're away for the next few weeks though, and who knows, maybe she'll have improved enough by the time they get back not to even try it ! *I can dream* Our vet has also suggested trying a hush muzzle, but she hates having anything on her face, so I'm not too keen to try that. We have thought about the electric collar, but I'd rather wait and see if what we're doing helps. I'm concerned that by just stopping the barking she might develop other bad habits that could be worse. I've also managed to find some other natural remedies to try, but they only arrived today, so we'll wait and see if they help.

tvp - texturised vegetable protein

Puggles, Each week I make a mixture of rice, raw vegies (blended), tvp, oats (blended), yogurt and eggs - I vary the composition a bit so they don't get bored, and usually cook the rice in a low salt stock (I use Massel) for extra flavour. We also get a suppliment called vegedog from the US which is added. That's their dinner. For breakfast they get vitabrits with some commerical dry food. The recipe is based on one from Bark Busters, but the vegedog also comes with recipes. The dogs love it - they try to steal it out of the container as I make it. Mushroom is their biggest favourite, and they'll sit begging for some while I'm making dinner. If you leave any on the counter unguarded it'll quickly disappear, they've also been known to steal fruit out of the fruit bowl and eat it. Outside they eat corn, tomatoes, pumpkin (babies), strawberries etc straight off the vine or plant. The cats like to eat the broccoli plants. Through the day they have food dispensing toys - kongs, treat balls etc stuffed with some dry food and other treats like peanut butter.

I think GMD has made it perfectly clear that she is going to make an informed, educated decision, that will not be to the detriment of her dog. If the dog refuses to eat or doesn't do well on the diet then she will change it. If dogs are perfectly happy eating a vegetarian diet, and healthy then I really don't see where this idea of it being 'cruel' comes from. GMD has never said that she will 'force' her dog to eat this food or that she will maintain if the dog isn't healthy on it. I think the comments about being open minded go both ways on this issue. I think the whole 'natural' argument is a bit tired. Very little in our or our dogs, cats or other animals lives can really be considered 'natural'.

Well, we are going to try bones to see if that helps, but we're going to get the smoked bones. One idea is to give a stash to our nice neighbours and when she goes off outside he can give her one over the fence and hopefully that will keep her happy. Because we have a doggy door and they can go in and out at will, I'm not that keen on coming home to find bones buried under pillows etc, but I wll just have to cope I suppose. I've tried to teach them that bones must stay outside, but with limited success. I am more able to deal with the smoked ones than the big raw ones which I can't even look at. My OH is supposed to make the puchase today - I'll probably have to call and remind him.

We are using the Clomicalm is conjunction with retraining, since after several weeks it hasn't made any difference on it's own. We don't have a video camera, but I have hidden in the carport and listened to what happens. She barks inside, going from room to room and then she goes outside and barks. According to the neighbours this usually goes on for about 3 hours. We have increased time spent with basic training, instituted times where the dogs aren't allowed to sit with us, have periods with a closed door between me/us and the dogs, and teaching her to stay while I leave the room and she can't see me any more. When at home I also go though the motions of going to leave and then not, going out for varying periods (5, 10, 20 mins etc). I ignore them for at least 10 minutes before leaving, and until they calm down when I get home. The tv or radio is left on and there are plenty of treats and toys - including kongs, treat balls, food dispensing stuff. We have tried the citronella anti-barking collar which works if we're there, but once we're gone she just keeps barking citronella or not. We also have a DAP diffuser, and I've been using rescue remedy, red chestnut, Dog Be Calm - any natural remedy we've been able to find. Her diet consists mainly of homemade food, and we only buy commercial dry food with no artifical colours etc. We have made sure since she was a puppy that she didn't get the little extras that would make her more hyper - as a kelpie she's energetic enough! In short putting her on any drugs is not a decision made lightly, but for her sake we have to try everything. We're concerned that if it continues one of our less friendly neighbours might do something not very nice (and I don't mean call the council). If the drugs can calm her enough for the retraining to have an effect then I think it will be worth it. But at the moment they're having no effect at all. A behaviourist would be great, but we can't afford it, and apparently we would also have to go to Melbourne to see one.

One of our dogs has just started on Clomicalm (since yesterday) for her separation anxiety, which is causing excessive barking. She's 18.2kg so they put her on the 20mg, on 1 tablet a day, in combination with everything else we have already been doing. On the little info sheet that comes in the box, it says 2 a day though, so I'm wondering if the dose sounds OK? They warned us she might be very dopey, but in fact there doesn't really seem to be any difference in her at all - just as hyper/obsessive and energetic as usual. Should I be able to notice at least some difference in her? I was at home today so several times I sent out the front for varying lenghts of time to listen, and she was barking just as frantically as usual. I have no idea how long it's been going on for - the neighbours only told us about 3 weeks ago so we'd been trying behaviour modification, training, rescue remedy etc with no effect. Maybe I'm expecting the medication to provide some change too soon, but I was hoping for some improvement because she ought to be calmer.

The cats I know on a vegan diet are supplemented with vegecat which provide sufficient taurine. One cat has been on the diet for more than 8 years now, and is fine.

Our dogs actually have less gas than dogs I know that eat meat, and our oldest dog certainly has far less, and is far less stinky than when she ate meat. You know I still get told by lots of people including doctors that a vegetarian diet isn't healthy let alone a vegan one. Go figure? If you know what you're doing and have a healthy balanced diet then it really isn't an issue. Education, education, education! I know dogs and cats who are fed a vegan diet and are healthy after many years on it - if you do your research you'll find that especially OS there are many alternatives to provide everything they need. Vegetarian diets for dogs are very common in other countries, as t-time said.

Miranda, all our animals are desexed so I can't help you on the litter thing. I have also chosen not to have skinkids but vegan friends who have them have all had normal to high birth weights in their kids. Amstaffchick, we get our tvp in bulk from health food stores so it's not so expensive. The sausage roll stuff is by Sanitarium and is called something like Sausage Roll Filling (I can't remember exactly).

Hey GMD, check out these links Vegan Pet Vegepet Happy Pets. Some is available locally, and other stuff you can order from OS. I am a vegan, and our dogs live very healthily and happily on a mostly vegetarian diet. Basically what we feed them is a BARF type diet, but we use TVP instead of meat. We've been feeding them this for years and they are all very healthy, and they love it. They do get chews and stuff for their teeth though. There are also vegie alternatives to chews available OS, but we simply can't afford it at the moment. The cats eat meat though - they won't even try anything else. Added: another link http://www.yummyfordogs.org/

You might also want to try a local pet supplies place, sometimes they rent them. Our council do rent the electric ones (Ballarat). It may be worth trying the citronella again, some dogs like it, some dogs hate it. Our kelpie hates the smell. We rented a citronella collar and it worked like a charm on her. Maybe also try some rescue remedy, which is availble from chemists and health food shops - we found it helped with our kelpie, as well as a DAP diffuser - but they can go in and out through the doggy door, wouldn't be any use if they're only outside.