Salukifan

I get that but I'm not going to allow ANKC breeder behaviour to be the rationale for BYBs and pet shops to be advocated as appropriate sources of pups. You don't fix one issue by giving worse alternatives as the solution. Oh I absolutely agree. I was pointing out that not all problem dogs come from pet shops/puppy mills, some from BYB. We need a broader method of reaching people that addresses more aspects of the problem, eg it would be easy for somebody who had heard not to buy from a pet store to find an internet, newspaper add or word of mouth, buy from a backyard breeder, and acquire a dog on impulse with little to no research or advice given on the breed. And in the meantime, while we educate, we need to ACT to protect the welfare of animals used to produce "products" for pet shops to sell. Personally, I'm not in favour of restricting breeding only to ANKC members but anyone who does breed needs to be forced to comply with reasonable standards of welfare for their dogs. Treating them like units of production rather than living breathing creatures with physical and social needs simply does NOT cut it for me and I don't care who you are.

I think there are two important points here: * Not all registered breeders are ethical. Sad, but its true. * IF you buy from an ethical registered breeder, the odds of you being bitten are pretty low. You can educate till the cows come home but that's only if people are willing to listen. I see no positive side to a situation in society where pups can be bought on a whim or with the click of the "add to cart" button on the internet. If ethical registered breeders are not a very large part of the answer to the issues of unwanted dogs in society then please tell me what those answers are and why. And please show me examples of the types of sellers "tarred" by this forum lifting their game. One more thing - if you asked me if it were possible that there are ethical non-ANKC registered breeders, breeding companion animals, then my answer would be a resounding "yes". But they appear, from what I can gather, to be as rare as rocking horse poo. And how Jo Average is going to find one, I simply do not know.

I think there are two important points here: * Not all registered breeders are ethical. Sad, but its true. * IF you buy from an ethical registered breeder, the odds of you being bitten are pretty low. You can educate till the cows come home but that's only if people are willing to listen. I see no positive side to a situation in society where pups can be bought on a whim or with the click of the "add to cart" button on the internet. If ethical registered breeders are not a very large part of the answer to the issues of unwanted dogs in society then please tell me what those answers are and why. And please show me examples of the types of sellers "tarred" by this forum lifting their game.

Dogmate: Dogmate, I would never suggest for a minute that some ANKC breeders don't have conditions on dogs that are downright ridiculous. But behind a lot of the "breeders are snobs" arguments I hear (and believe me I hear plenty) there's this underlying thought along the lines of "how very dare someone suggest that I'm not a fit owner for their pup". Well, trot down to the pound and you'll see quite a few dogs that someone thought they were fit to own and they were wrong. And talk to breeders who've had a few sales go wrong and you'll get stories that would curl your hair. In between outrageous questions and conditions on buyers and "here's my credit card, I want THAT one" is a position where the welfare of pups and the reasonable wants of buyers can be balanced. In my opinion, that will not and should not happen in a situation where pups are housed for the convenience of the retailer rather than as is optimal for their development and where there is no meeting between breeder and buyer AND no ongoing support. Sorks is free to convince me otherwise but "I got a pup from a petshop and he turned out fine" ain't cutting it so far. Breeders aren't mind readers and the inside v outside living issue is a big one. When you hear of a Whippet who's a bunch of bones and the owner says (in the middle of winter) "I have no idea why he's losing weight- he HAS a kennel", you know that buyer didn't get the Whippets 101 talk from a breeder. Sad when the dog is losing weight because the owner was never told about the fact that they have minimal body fat and need to be coated. But hey, I can see buyers now - "no one's going to tell ME that my dog has to live inside or sissy coats on".. Edited for sense

I get that but I'm not going to allow ANKC breeder behaviour to be the rationale for BYBs and pet shops to be advocated as appropriate sources of pups. You don't fix one issue by giving worse alternatives as the solution.

Who's denying anything??????? Sorks has been called a troll simply for having a diferent view.looks like denial of alternatives to me. Please don't tar all of us with the same brush. I'm all for robust debate on such issues but pet shops as a decent alternative to breeders selling? Does anyone here honestly think that the sale of pups in pet shops is a GOOD thing? If so, please outline your argument with canine welfare at the forefront of the positives. Seriously, how would pet shop staff even know the personalities of the pups they sell? They don't observe them over the course of 8 weeks and they are contained in a manner that limits natural behaviours. And if the mother of the pups is the best lead on how they will turn out, how does buying a pup having never seen either parent or the conditions in which it was raised assist a buyer to make a good choice?

Who's denying anything???????

And sorry, but "never about the cost of the pup"? I can show you a case lived out right here on this forum where the buyer got all the advice (mostly about not buying a pup of that breed at that time) and went off and got a BYB one. Rationale? It was cheaper. And if no decent breeder would have sold a pup to that home, no doubt we'd have seen the "snob" argument trotted out again.

Let the campaign of terror commence!!!!

Wanted a GSP and ended up with a Dachshund.. because the breeds are so similar and all... And the dog was to sleep outside but the one they got now sleeps inside.. if they'd made that decision up front, they probably could have had the GSP after all. I love the idea that it's meant to be easy for any buyer to get the dog they want and somehow THAT justifies pet shops selling pups. Kerist I know families who shouldn't be allowed to keep tadpoles let alone some of the more challenging breeds. And can I please state for the record that the fact that you've managed to keep a dog of a particular breed alive for a decent period of time does NOT automatically make you a "good" owner for another dog of that breed. Case in point: Hungarian Vizsla owner in a family known to me. The dog sleeps outside, lives outside and never leaves the yard. Never. Suriving is not thriving and why any HV breeder would want to place a pup in that situation beats me. Sorry Dogmate, not having a go at you but most of these kinds of arugments have been floated before and most of them sink with a bit of scrutiny.

I think you can if the petshop is a member of PIAA??? There aren't many that are. Only in some states. It's a blanket ban on pet shop sales here. :) If you are in the ACT that is not the case. Here is the clause from the ACT code of ethics: e) Incompliance to section 9 - A Member shall not sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers or retail pet dealers, who are not accredited by the Pet Industry Association of Australia Limited (PIAA). Here is the Code of Ethics on Our website I don't see any reference to PIAA there and if it IS there somewhere, prepare for a campaign of terror by yours truly to have it removed. :D

I think you can if the petshop is a member of PIAA??? There aren't many that are. Only in some states. It's a blanket ban on pet shop sales here. :) I have to say I get a bit frustrated by the justification of pet shop puppy sales with the argument that "some registered breeders are pretty awful". Yes folks they are but two wrongs don't make a right and how anyone can advocate a retail point of sale as a GOOD method of buying pups from the dogs' welfare perspective sure beats me. I think all pups should be sourced from their breeders. End of story. Frankly if more buyers saw the conditions pups were whelped and raised in, they might be a bit more discerning about where their dogs come from. If nothing else, why anyone in their right mind would want to pay 3 times the price for a pup that the pet shop buys them for defies logic.

You might wish to be aware Sorks that in some States, it is a breach of the Canine Control's Code of Ethics for an ANKC Registered breeder to sell pups to a pet shop. I'm glad your purchase worked out. I sincerly hope that ever other pup in that litter went to a buyer knowledgeable about the breed.. but I doubt it. My local RSPCA keeps stats and knows that puppy shop sourced pups are over represented in dogs surrendered to them... so there's an issue right there.

Who said all breeders were God-like?? It certainly wasn't me. Methinks you exaggerate Sorks. Poor behavior from some breeders doesn't excuse the sale of pups who should still be with their litternates to people who half the time have no idea what they are getting into. I come at this from the perpective of a dog trainer. We get to try to sort some of these issues out. That's if the owner hasn't adopted the "easy come, easy go" approach and offloaded the pup when the going got tough. You clearly have no idea how many petshop and BYB puppy buyers thus forum has assisted over the years.

I'm such a cynic. All I could wonder was would a remote Thai island village really have a vet??

I think it's a marketing buzzword aimed to give the impression that the food is healthier than alternatives.

The day the public stop focussing on the cute puppies and asks hard questions about the lives their PARENTS lead, will be the day this ghastly trade's days are numbered. Friend of mine lived next door to a puppy farmer. All breeding dogs shedded in uninsulated colour bond sheds with no outside access. Winter or summer, that was it. They went in and the ONLY way they left was to the skip at the back of the property. But hey, they were fed and watered so there was nothing the RSPCA could do. And those pups were supplied to pet stores all over Sydney. Pull your head out of the sand Sorks and ask yourself what kinds of puppy suppliers can supply litters often enough to keep the perspex prisons full at chain petstores. Then ask yourself what confining a puppy to a small area where it eats, shits and plays in the one spot for weeks does to future house training prospects. Friend of mine bought a petstore pup (yes, she knew better but couldn't leave it there after two months) and her vet said she'd NEVER seen a pup with weaker muscle development. That's what living in a box without room to play and access to direct sunlight does for pups.

Yes, I would be concerned. This kind of rough housing is pretty common but you need to make a few points to this man: * Luna is your dog, not his * You want to raise her to learn that mouthing people is a no go zone * What she learns as a pup, she will practice as an adult and she is going to be a powerful dog. You don't want her mouthing anyone, least of all kids and she needs to learn that from the get go. I suggest you offer some alternative play behaviours.. perhaps a tug rope. (might be a bit fraught) or teach her to retrieve soft toys. But the bottom line is she's your dog and he plays with her by your rules. If he won't then I'd be politely suggesting he find somewhere else to stay. That should get his attention.

I think where people go wrong is that EVERY interaction with other dogs is free play. There's no balance applied. I see such dogs at the dog club, coming late into obedience. Their owners have interpreted the "socialise your puppy" message as taking them to the dog park every day and letting them just go for it. And surprise surprise all the dogs want to do when they see other dogs is run around and play like mad things. They've often been roughhoused and many have rough, inappropriate play styles for a lot of other dogs. And as for correcting a dog for defending itself from a bite?? Ah, no. I suggest in such situations that handlers apply a harsh correction to THEMSELVES for putting their dogs in a situation where they felt compelled to do so. I know I"m risk averse but I read posts here about mounting and scuffles being all part of every day visits to the dog park and I shudder. It certainly reinforces my view to stay out of them when ever other dogs are present. And to the OP, yes I would be concerned. Your dog is maturing, is clearly becoming less submissive/tolerant and now needs you to be more discerning about the sorts of dogs he socialises with. Heed the warning he's given you.

Oh Teebs I'm so sorry. RIP big boy.

What's a "Slinky". Never heard that term used in a dog context.

You want me to "shut the hell up"? Well, you got your wish. Permanently. You're under no obligation to take advice here but abuse isn't really called for. People are genuinely trying to be helpful and you accuse us of wasting your time. Charming. *backs quietly out of thread* Good luck with your boy. I have no idea why you asked for options when its clear you have no intention of doing anything other than your original plan.

http://www.webmd.com/osteoarthritis/guide/anti-inflammatory-drugs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analgesic If NSAID's weren't pain killers, dogs would be having surgery and treatment around the world with no pain relief...

Actually it CAN be bad for injured animals. Things are healing - possibly out of alignment. Without surgery or a brace and physical therapy, you may be looking at long term compromise of the joint. Muscles are wasting due to inactivity. I hate to keep harping on this but how many serious structural injuries have you seen solved with simply rest?? If you'd ruptured your ACL would you be content to limp around on one leg and hope it was getting better? At the very least you need to know what the injury is because right now you don't even know that. Conservative approaches can be damaging for the longer term in an active dog. No ACL places additional strain on remaining hock supports and it can lead to further injury, See a decent vet as soon as you can. You need to know what options you have AND their consequences before you decide how to handle this. If it were my dog, I'd be opting for repair. I'd certainly not be opting to do nothing.

I think you need to find a vet you trust. They don't always have money as their primary motivation for their advice. You'd kick yourself if you found out that delaying your dogs treatment closed off options rather than opening them.