Mystiqview

Congtats LM. $320??? that is dearer than my breeders permit with BCC?????

Noice wun Ann. I'm sure BanksiaPark are happy to have you on board. Intelligence... hmmm I think the brains when that person was born was bi-passed. Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity (and bad grammar)

Does not look like it. It sounds like any one with more than one bitch is a puppy farmer. Anyone who needs to have an emergency C-section, loses pups post whelping or has a small litter should "give up" as their breeding stock is "not good enough for breeding". Anyone who does not keep a puppy from their litter should not breed as that is puppy farming. It does not matter that the parents have had all the necessary health tests and the puppies are all healthy, happy and are sold to loving homes who go onto live full and happy lives.

I have never had to have a C-section. Thankfully. One litter of two pups are just one of those things. It happens to the best of kennels. Not everyone has a champion bitch to start off with. Many a breeder starts off with an average or better than average bitch. The possible champion material ones are generally kept by the breeder. It is what you do after that. The aim is to improve. If you improve then there is a chance. It may have taken two generations on one line to get something that is now at least showing promise and to competitive in the ring. Everyone had to start somewhere. Even the big name kennels.

Anne, With my breed, we generally have free whelpers. It is not a common thing to have C-sections as a regular occurance, but of course they happen for a myriad of reasons. If you did have a bitch that needed C-sections each time, then they should be culled from the breeding program. IMO. If you are lucky enough to export OS and charge accordingly, then you may certainly make a profit on a litter. The larger show/sporting kennels may well do make money. Those who breed for the fad and charge for it, will no doubt make money, especially if they stash a lot of their dogs into "foster" homes, then get htem back for the respective litters. Most of the small time ethical registered breeders I know do not make money.

It has nothing about wearing "monetry losses as a badge". People read these forums and somehow I find it amazing that some still continue to think we make money hand over foot. Even with all the posts on DOL over the years to the contary. I know of other breeders who have posted up the costs of raising a litter to try and get the point across that if you do it for the true love of the breed and properly, there is not a lot of money in breeding. In some cases yes, you may be in the black on a litter. But somewhere down the track, I am sure there was a "in the red" litter(s) as well. There are possibly some registered breeders who DO breed that may make a profit from puppies. Like many hobbies, they are that. It is generally rare that a hobby makes the person money. You may get some expenses back, but to be rolling in money from the hobby is not common. A hobby is done for enjoyment and for an interest in that hobby. It suprises me that some on DOL, especially those who have been here a long time like myself, still continue to think breeders roll in the cash from breeding. I agree with Souff. Breeders are condemed because they have more than one or two dogs. Some people cannot even look after one dog let alone more. Some people I would not even trust a pet rock to, let alone a living breathing animal. The neighbour across the road has two dogs. They don't breed. The dogs are left to their own devices in the back yard all day and night. You never see anyone paying attention to them, other than to throw them their dinner. I never see them go for a walk or even played with. The dogs bark day and night for attention. They are skinny and their coats look like crap. I have four dogs. They get walked, taken to the beach, parks, camping, live inside and are an active part of the family. They have the best vet care and food and want for nothing. They have never seen a boarding kennel - nor ever will. If we go on holidays, they come too. They were taken on a 14 day tour last year. A dog trailer was bought especially to take away the "family". We stayed in some caravan parks. People around us, were surprised there were four dogs with us, they were that well behaved. And breeders are yet questioned how they look after and give attention/socialisation to multiple animals?? The same can be said of some families who have more than one or two children? But that seems to be different because they are human. Just because one person cannot handle one or two dogs, does not mean another cannot handle multiple dogs. Just like children. You MUST make the time to give to them, you MUST make time to train and nurture them to be well adjusted members of the community, albeit the animal one. Puppy mills and unethical breeders just leave the dogs to their own devices in the back yard. Unfortunately we are all tarred with the one brush, without people stopping to think there is a difference. If you breed therefore you are rolling in cash and are in it for the money and you do not care for the welfare of the animals in your care. That is so far from the truth for many an ethical breeder.

There are some very ethical registered breeders who probably don't turn a profit, because in addition to working in another role in life, they pay staff to ensure that their dogs are properly cared for and they have kennel facilities that are cleaner than some people's kitchens. You wont find them in suburbia, they have acreage so they wont bother you their neighbours too much. They breed beautiful dogs in excellent conditions and they do it for the love of the breed. It is a great shame that they are tossed into the same basket as the grubs who are turning out sub-standard dogs in appalling conditions, based on the fact that they own a certain number of dogs. Some women are not capable of looking after just 1 child, while other women are capable of raising 6 of their own well .... and then taking on foster children and doing voluntary work in their local community or helping hubby with the family business! It is the same with dog breeders. Some are just grubs. Some are excellent managers. It often has little to do with the number of dogs they own. Souff Well said. I have four dogs in suburbia and a husband. No two-legged kids. My dogs range from 6 months to nearly 3 years. My dogs live inside the house and out. The two older dogs (3 years and 18 months) sleep in the bedroom with us. The two younger ones being pups still, sleep in crates down in the laundry (we have split level house). Both myself and my husband work full time. There are no one else to care for the dogs. They are not kennelled. Two stay in the house during the day (they are clean dogs), and the two young ones go outside. Even for small, I suppose hobby breeders like myself. I breed maximum ONE litter a year. The last few litters was about me breeding something that I thought was good enough for the ring, as like many a new breeder starting off, you rarely start with Champion Material. I have bred a total of four litters to date. There have been stud fees, DNA testing, Hip/elbow testing for each breeding bitch. The first litter I went with my dog interstate. So airfare, stud fees, accomodation/food, there were AI fees. Vet fees, changing of flight details as the bitch was not ready when I had booked to come back. I eventually got the natural matings.. At the time we were supposed to be on a flight back to Brisbane. The bitch had 5 puppies @ $500 ea = $2500 So basic run down: Flights: $600 Stud: $800 AI/Vet: $200 DNA testing /hip-elbow scoring $660 (CEA: $180, TNS/CL: $130, Hip/Elbow Score: $350) Puppy Vaccinations: $350 Food/ bitch vaccinations for 2 years: $750 ($75 for C5 vacc. $25/month food) Training fees (obedience): $200 plus entrires to competitions. I am sure you can add extras like toys, collars, leads etc, training clinics etc. Total: $3560 Loss of $1060 Not included there are council permit fees of $200/year and Registration of $40/dog/year. CCCQ membership fees and prefix maintenance. Some of these costs can be attributed to normal dog ownership (dog registration, standard food and vacc etc). This would be a similar set of sums for any small ethical hobby breeder once you REALLY sit down and work it out. I have recently gotten back into showing. I can spend on a weekend anywhere between $40-$100 in show entries, plus fuel getting to those shows. The other week I went to a show 2.5 hours away and used a full take of fuel worth about $85. One litter I sent the bitch away for a stud. I had AI charges, transport and stud fees as well as the regular food/vaccination costs for litter and mum. Only got 2 puppies. One I kept the other I sold for the stud fee of $800. The only ones who do make money are those who keep their overheads right down and charge excess prices for their dogs. If you have a dog and bitch in your back yard, do not health test or anything like that and charge the same going rate as ethical breeders, then of course you may make money. Likewise if you keep pumping out litters each season.

Sorry, I must of not been clear. You are supposed to have a permit. The conditions vary from state to state. BYB Australia wide (small operation ones which when added together would be equal or greater to the farms). BYB's don't bother with permits. Simple. It costs money to have permits/council registrations. No permit/registration = no tracability to the local authorities. BYB's do not microchip and in some cases do not vaccinate and sell pups at 6 weeks. Another $$ saving on vet fees. Decreased overhead costs = more profit. The law is there. But unfortunately, BYB's fly under all the official radars. It is only the registered breeders who do the right thing the law REALLY applies to (although the law is supposed to apply to all). As registered breeders are tracked via local council and their relevant Association. ETA: my point in Qld is BYB's also fly under the radar from local authorities as again, without a permit they are not traced by local authorities. There is no incentive to buy a permit. Even from what I have read in the ACT, there is no incentive to buy permits as they cost money, so if they can operate without one, why not?? I am thinking of all the local classified ads in the Saturday paper. A litter of puppies here in someone's back yard, another there.. Add all the litters up for all the breeds, there are 100's of unregistered BYB puppies potentially sold each weekend. Add to the local paper, that other website and all the puppies advertised on there every day... You cannot tell me all those "breeders" have the necessary permits/dog registrations to breed from their local council.

Can I ask out of curiosity why you would prefer no permits or restrictions on numbers? If a back yard breeder is turned off breeding by having to pay $300 for a permit then isn't this a better place to start than saying they have to be chipped and registered once they have all ready been brought into the world??? The problem with this in Brisbane and surrounding shires is this: To get a permit, you MUST belong to the CCCQ or Greyhound body. Without that membership, you cannot get a breeder's permit. You MAY be able to apply for excess dog permit, but I am not sure about the nitty gritties that need to be done (desexing etc). BYB cannot get that permit, so they already save $200/year in permit fees. Being a member of CCCQ, you pay about $40/dog/year for registration. Whole dog is about $90/year/dog. In Brisbane, you can only have two dogs without a permit - four with a permit. This paints a bad picture. Dogs are unregistered with local council No permit is obtained to breed or necessarily have more than two dogs. Depending on your neighbours and the type of dog you have, I am sure you can "hide" 4 dogs easily especially if they do not bark or cause any other nuisence behaviour. You advertise in the local paper using a mobile number or a free website dedicated to selling animals You are untracable (compulsary microchipping, vaccination, etc) You do not have to abide by any code of ethics from an association You meet prospective buyers at a neutral area and not on the property (quarantine reasons or other BS reasons) The only way a BYB is caught if council bothers to chase them up (either by their ad in the paper/online ad) or someone makes a complaint about that person. No wonder BYB is rife! Meanwhile Registered, Ethical breeders pay the council permits/registration, ANKC association fees, health test breeding stock, vaccinate, microchip, offer lifetime support to puppy buyers AND (for most) let puppy buyers come to the property to see puppies, mother, relatives etc.

Bought mine from a rural store. It came with a hession cover, which once it was destroyed went back to the rural store and bought a shadecloth one which fits over the frame.

If you ring the manufacturer.. They say it is safe to be used on Collies.

I have had problems of Advantix causing sores under where it has been applied to my dogs. I don't and won't use it now. Bayer Animal Health do not seem to care when had reported it. Saying it was a "hot spot" and not their product causing the sores. My theory: The product is oily in nature. With a double coat breed, even though you separate the hair to apply to the skin, a certain amount is still soaked up by the under coat making an oily mass sitting above the skin. This allows water to get trapped underneath the oily spot causing the sore. Another problem could be the use of the likes of Proban, Bayer Tick collars and products like Maldacin. All contain the same poison and you cannot use two of these products together as it will cause an "overdose". Some pet owners are unaware of using two "green label" products together. There is insufficient warning on the labels of these products about using them in conjunction of other flea/tick preventatives. Also add to the mix, the safety margin used within the top spots. I have contacted these companies previously, and the response from the operator is that the safety margin is SO high I can use a 40kg top spot on a 20kg dog without ill effect. If this is the case. Especially say if you cannot buy the product in your dogs weight range, so you go up a weight bracket. You have to ask two questions: The effectiveness of the product that you can do this, and the concern of overdosing by (mis)using a product in such a way.

Mother Moocher: It is lucrative for the shires as they will be charging a kennel license fee for those establishments. Looking at Banksia Park saying they had 800 breeding females and a number of studs (forget the number). But look at what a 900-1000 kennel license... That would equate to tens of thousands in kennel license fees for the shires where the establishments are located in.

yeah.. I saw one dog there whose rear end was shocking. I think that was one where the RSPCA person said the only thing to do with it was PTS. There were many others who I thought looked sus in their walking and pity the unsuspecting puppy buyers down the track who get those puppies. I remember a pet store at Virginia here in Brisbane a while ago. Had three labs in the bottom glass cage. Two had what looked like HD even then. I would may have put them around 12 weeks. The glass cage was too small for the three puppies. Another pet store at Stafford. Had three border collie puppies in there. Looked like working line style. Again about 12 weeks old. Glass cage way too small for the animals inside. They could barely walk around it was so cramped. There was one family looking at them. I had one of my guys there, and they asked me what I thought of the pups in the window.. I said I would not touch them and gave them a list of reasons not to..also gave them a few numbers to contact registered breeders and said you could pick up a healthier, tested puppy cheaper than what the pet store was selling the mutts for. I was asked to leave by the store owner and told where was my right to prevent an adoption? They asked me where I got my guys from.. I replied loudly "An ETHICAL registered breeder who health tests their breeding stock!!"

I did like the quip by the reporter when she pointed out the dry and barren conditions in which a dog was kept in behind him at one point. And Colin's response of they only need "Shelter, food and water". What a crock of crap. That is the basics needed only to not get fined by RSPCA for cruelty?? How many times have any of us reported a neighbour's dog tied to the clothesline or something else and been told as long as food, shelter and water are supplied, they cannot do anything? Sorry. But that is cruelty on a major scale. The sooner they ban dogs/kittens in pet shops the better. But that will never happen.. As in the program. its a cash flow industry. The council are not going to change, as they get registration fees/kennel licence fees from these places, vets get paid and the pet stores get people in the door by the cute bundle of sorrow in the window.

It was interesting with regards to that twice in 18 month comment. I am sure I read on PIAA websit a year or so ago they had no issue with bitches producing every season. I wonder if that guy said that comment to try and sound like ethical ankc breeders who DO have to abide by that rule.

I am also thoroughly disgusted in Steve Austin for supporting puppy farms. Even the so called well run ones. He buys pups from registered or purebed breders. There goes any respect. Banksia park. Well disgusted there. 300 breeding females. OMG!! Don't believe for one minute those females are bred twice every 18 months. If it has a uterus. Why not use it for money.

I had guardia from drinking Sydney water!!!! No surprise there. On holidays once in Shitney... Drank the water. Vet said it was due to the different bugs in localised water. You get used to your own bugs, so when you go somewhere else and drink local water, you can get it. found this: Link

Because we can register pups straight into the new owner's name, some times papers are not available at the time you collect your puppy or when it is transported to you. This could be due to the breeder is waiting to sell the remaining puppies so the transfer can be done in one go. Most of the time however, they will not be too far away. I know I have bought puppies and only had to wait a short time for the papers to arrive. I have sold puppies to new pet owners and informed them the papers will be on their way. I have never had problems selling my pups by 8 weeks, so if the papers are not ready when the owner collects them, they have never been too far behind (The papers were in with the CCCQ at the time) Dogs Qld, normally (or used to) send the papers to the breeder to check the details and then it was the responsibility of the breeder to forward the papers onto the puppy buyers. So I would definately check to see if the papers are going directly to you from Dogs Qld. Good to hear you are getting papers though. I have heard some horror stories the other week, where a couple registered breeders were charging an extra $200 for papers. They are not allowed to do this. ALL puppies must come with papers - whether they be on main or limit.

Give him a place to dig?? I have two clam shells here filled with water (as I have water diggers). But many fill them with sand or gravel as well. Bury things in there he can find. Toys, treats etc. Many say to give them an acceptable area to dig in and encourage its use. I have used a mouse trap set in a coffee tin and buried that in the hole and covered it over. Worked for some, not others. I have NEVER used a balloon, as this when it goes off can be lodged in their throat and kill them. I have use "get off my garden" and similar products. Worked for a little while, I don't think the scent stays there long. I have also planted chilli bushes in the past.. Except that dog found a liking for chillies. LOL Also used the chicken wire over the hole. Problem there, is your yard can become all chicken wire if you do not address the issue. But in saying that, this goes for all methods of poo in hole etc. Electric fence around the garden beds. Depends on how smart your dog is, after a few zaps, just leave the tape up and every now and again turn on the fence to remind them about garden. It worked for a dobe I had years ago. Just had to show him the white tape and he was fine.

I would have thought a pound dog would have been desexed. Oh well. I think I have more of an issue of the pound selling an entire dog than the guy putting it up for stud duties. No worse to any of the other BYB designer cross breds out there.

I used to have dobes. Never elevated their food bowls. Never had bloat. Dobes are supposed to be known for the condition. The water bowls have always been elevated - more due to cane toads in Qld than anything else. I also used small automatic water dishes (only hold about 5l water). Not good when you have a dog that want to constantly dig them out. Alleviated that by putting a brick in it.

Been a while. I had one judges training session Sunday morning at Oxley.

I currently have a 8.5 month male BC doing that. Some days he will eat it all, other days he will eat a mouthful or two and leave the rest. His mother did it around the same age too. Not too worried at present. He looks a little lean, but if anything like the mother, he will grow out of it. If he gets too bad, I will feed more raw that what I currently do. Mine are mostly on Advance with raw added. I also found the mother, did not like the larger normal kibble. I have her on small breed of the same brand, with bones to chew for teeth/gum health

There is no substitute to training. Any anti-pull device is a band aid. Take it off and the problem is still there. I can walk four border collies at once and none of them pull. I have seen others walk multiple larger heavier dogs. All done with training.