Mystiqview

My first BC about nine years ago cost me $500. Parents were health tested as far as they could be at the time. I had an excellent breeder who was willing to offer advice, training and friendship to this day still. I did not have health issues to complain about. She sadly died at 7 years due to cancer and also had Exercise Induced Collapse. I do not blame her breeder. Jemma was worth every penny for her temperament and willingness to please. My most expensive BC was $1000 back in 2008. I also hand raised the litter for the breeder. So I suppose you could say, I was ripped off a bit. But again, the bitch is just a loyal companion and is affectionately known as "Turd". As a breeder, the prices of my puppies is greatly determined on the stud dog used. The better the quality, naturally the higher the price, although my pups have all been priced within what is charged by other breeders. Sometimes under priced. I breed for myself, not anyone else. If I get what I want within a litter, I only want good homes for the pups at a fair price. It really makes me mad in my breed when you see people charging double for "fad" (and unrecognised) colours only because they can. Some of these breeders do not fully health test, but by advertising the colours as "rare" they get away with it.

I nearly fell off the couch in shock when she told me that price. It makes me sad and mad at the same time.

Great to see you in here Benshiva! What is the average price there in Sydney?? Surely no one should be paying $1800 for a BC.. let alone a pet store BC

Um don't know where they get that from... They are bloody red heads!!!!! All the red heads I know love to dig (and are mud monsters), bark, run and generally be full on. Maybe those red heads read a different book?? ETA: of my four dogs here now.... My red/white (AKA wheaten/white) is more troublesome than my three black/whites put together.. He is the one who loves the sound of his own voice, loves to dig to china and is generally the one who cannot sit still.

Depending on your state: Anywhere from $700 to $1000 for quality health tested puppies from an ethical breeder. I know of breeders over there who charge a lot more for their puppies than what is charged in the Eastern states. NSW and VIC prices generally have been higher than QLD prices, although I think QLD prices are now very similar to NSW and VIC with the exception for our colour breeders here who want to charge $1500 or more or unrecognised colours such as blue or chocolate merle, lilac, choc tri and the other unrecognised colours.

What professional trainer would also be asking a person unseen what sport is best for their dog that is only 12 weeks old?? Surely she would have been able to assess the temperament of the dog and know you cannot tell the real potential of a 12 week old puppy? How would I know if it will be the next obedience or agility champion?? For one I am some 1000kms away. I am not sure what I am more upset about. The lies told to puppy buyers, the obviously poor health standards that arose for the pup to get parvo (not to mention any other health issues) whilst in the care of the pet store or the person stupid enough to pay those rip off prices, then thought to ring a registered breeder

$1800: That is double what you pay for a quality black/white puppy from a registered ethical breeder who has done all the health testing who can give the ongoing support for their puppy buyer. I even know of quality red/white puppies going recently in NSW for only $1000. Same deal.. Fully health tested, and all the support/knowledge from a registered breeder.

I got a phone call from a lady tonight. She had bought a 12 week old "wheaten/white" border collie from a Sydney Pet store. She has got this puppy home and then decided to ring a breeder to find out a little about health issues in the breed. The woman claims to be a recognised dog trainer and has GSD's. She is concerned with the dog having bloat as it occurs in GSD's. She also asked me about the training requirements and how much exercise the dog needs as they were told by the pet store owner bc's needed to be walked twice a day. After telling her about the three main genetic diseases (CEA, CL and TNS), hip and elbow displacia. I told her about living in high set houses and not allowing the dog to go zooming down the stairs and as they want to do, jump the last four steps and scoot around the corner as this can lead to environmental displacia if the pup was prone to the condition. She told me the pup already had parvo while at the pet store and was fine now. She also told me the pet store owner had told her that "wheaten/whites" were specifically bred to be able to live in suburban blocks and be family pets. Their black.white counterparts were for farm dogs and required more exercise. I quickly set her straight on that point! I told them a border collie is a border collie!! They come from the same background and briefly explained the difference between show bred lines and pure working lines. (please no arguments here on the merits/failings of both). This apparently justified the $1800 price tag!! I told her she was ripped off. Gave a brief explanation of colour genetics and how some are breeding colour so they can charge up to $900 more for a pup. She asked me about what is best for the dog: Obedience, agility or herding. I told her it depended on the individual puppy and training methods - they do not do well with harsh training. Obedience is essential at least in basic form for control of the dog in the other sports, but make sure she kept her obedience fun and not harsh. She asked me about food. The usual stuff about changing diets and what I fed. The mind boggles how a so called (and I can only take her word for it) qualified professional dog trainer can go into a pet store and know nothing of a breed of dog they are looking at purchasing!! Let alone be taken for a ride by the shop keeper. It makes me so mad they choose to ring a breeder AFTER paying too much for a puppy at a pet store to find out how to take care of it!!! OMFG!!! How dense has the wider population gotten????? I hope the pup is fine and will not have any genetic issue from poor breeding. It does not bode well for quality for it to have parvo while at the pet store. She rang me because she saw my ad after getting home with said puppy, than I am small kennel and my dogs are fully health tested. Why on earth can they not ring BEFORE hand????

That's a bit crap!!!! I get 13L/100 in my 2001 Hilux forby. That is with an after market turbo and bigger tyres towing a trailer!! The new turbo diesels are supposed to be better

LOL I know about the auctions but I'd be a bit nervous - my dad worked as a manager in the public service and I know how much those cars get threashed! LOL LOL. Yes I worked 16 years for state government.. Now council. I know how some cars get thrashed, but occassionally there are some good ones that come up. Depends on how far you will be travelling to and from shows.. Have a look at turbo diesel engines. It kinda limits out the territory I think. But engine life and fuel economy is much better.

A thought for you. I know you said you will buy new.. But also have a look at the government auctions. Most only have about 50,000km or less on them, and have balance of new car warranty. Can save quite a few dollars and you do not necessarily inherit someone else's problem.

DOL puppy listings used to not as mind field as it is now to the unsuspecting. I am not bagging the puppy listings, but it should be known that puppy buyers now need to be more careful than they used to be. In recent years, there are much more new breeders advertising on there who are breeding solely for colour and/or not necessarily for quality. They are breeding with dogs that do not conform to the breed standard. Making a feature of breed faults such as blue eyes. The best way is to "shop around". You will get an idea soon enough what the average price of puppies is. Who are charging higher than normal amounts and who seem more reasonable. Just because breeder has been breeding for 25 years, does not always make them a good breeder. Likewise someone who is only breeding their first litter. Find out what they are aiming for in their breeding program. When you are looking for a colour, the mine field is bigger. Coloured puppies now generate more money than the plain ole boring black and white. And if a breeder can advertise it as "rare" and make out it something highly sought after, then the puppy buyer is wowsered into parting with much more money than they should. Ring the breeders and talk to them. Breeders (and puppy buyers) can write anything in an email. When you start talking to them, you and they get an idea of who and what the other person is like. I have knocked back puppy buyers after talking to them. If I didn't and only went by what they wrote in email, I could have made some big mistakes. If there is a contract/condition. Make sure you are 200% comfortable with those conditions and make sure all conditions are are in writing. Do not make a deposit on the first puppy you see. Have a look at a few litters first. Better still. Look at the parents. If the parents are something you like, then look at the puppies. Beware any breeder who tells you there are no issues in their lines. Every line has an issue somewhere. It may not be a major one, it can be something as simple as a blue eye or an undescended testicle in male dogs. Blue eyes are considered a show faults only and does not affect sight. Dogs with undescended testicles can be more expensive to desex later on.

When I had my mobile grooming business. I groomed within the hydrobath and took all my waste with me (Fur etc) I never put it in the client's bins etc. As for water, I let it go in the grass area either on the property or footpath. Try avoid letting it down the drain. Sometimes it cannot be helped, the products we used were environmentally friendly, and even when you did let it go on the footpath, some did go into the drain. If you leave foam on the footpath/lawn, I used to stamp on it, so it was not unsightly seen and then picked up any fur that came down the pipe from the bath. We do not seem to have as many pets up here in unit complexes. So was not too common for me.

Sometimes it is more polite and easier to nod and agree than disagree. I think everyone gets a little bit kennel blind at some point in time. How bad and how long they remain kennel blind is a different matter entirely. Everyone's opinion can have both merit and no value to others.

That breeder's only motivation is money. They breed large numbers of inferior quality coloured puppies just for the pet market and sell them at hugely inflated prices. They don't main register anything they don't keep, so can call the colours whatever they think will bring the biggest profit. They also have very little knowledge of colour genetics from some of the claims they have made in the past. The so called "silver" puppies in question are just ordinary blue merles. They are the only people I have ever heard refer to blue merle as silver. Solid blues are sometimes described as silver to distinguish the preferred pale silver blue from the darker blues but they are all still registered as blue. These breeder's also often "place" dogs in pet homes to get a litter back later. The dogs remain registered in the breeder's name to make it easier (and they don't have to pay transfer fees) to get the bitches back for litters later. In Qld, breeders are SUPPOSED to give the puppy buyer papers with their puppy. The papers must reflect where the dog resides and who it is owned by. I find it highly wrong to charge someone $1500 for a puppy only to expect it back for a litter later with no recompense back to the person who has looked after the puppy for the past 12 to 18 months. I know of somone who was in just a situation. I know we cannot keep everything we breed, but when a breeder stashes a pup somewhere for breeding later, it should be fair to the person who is going to look after the puppy for you. Unfortunately in Qld, there are more and more colour rip off breeders popping up. You just have to look at their websites and ads now in DOL to see they are only interested in money and have no idea about genetics or quality. If a dog has a willy or uterus, it is good enough to breed from. Unfortunately to advertise in the DOL breed pages, all you need is a CCC prefix. Nothing more. Some breeders just about have permanent ads up there all year round advertising up coming litters.

If you look at some overseas colours, they for a better term describe the merles as different "shades" I suppose. Terms like "Slate Merle", "Silver Merle" are just two. Here is one website: http://www.bryningbordercollies.com/Border-Collie-Colours As for "breeders" here not breeding merle. There are plenty enough around if you start looking. A lot more merles as they are becoming popular. As we cannot breed merle to merle (for deafness and blindness issues), one parent must be a solid colour and preferably not have another coat pattern (such as sable) or be an ee-red as that is a masking gene. By masking, the ee-red hides the merle coat pattern with a solid colour, but maybe genetically merle under neath. Danger there is the dog can be bred back to a merle dog, in effect breeding merle to merle genetically. The colours are becoming fashionable. First it was Chocolate because of "Toby the wonderdog" then the others are becoming more fashionable. Unfortunately, once a colour becomes a fashion, the unscrupulous breeders start breeding these colours because they can ask anything up to a $1000 more for the colour alone. The puppy itself may still be rubbish and have plenty of faults unsuspecting to the puppy buyer. In saying this, there are still plenty of black.white border collies who should not be bred either as they are just not good examples of the breed. Unfortunately once a breeder starts to focus on colour as their main objective, other more important factors are not considered so the quality slowly is degraded. In addition to this, it comes to the age old adage: Screw the price up until you get complaint. While there are idiots out there willing to pay their price, they will continue to breed and charge ridiculous amounts

Hi Mystiqview, I'm in WA, don't know why Queensland comes up in my profile. While it is a requriement here to register all pups now there is no rule with regard to us having to supply papers to new owners. As stated in my earlier post I am not comfortable with an 8wk old pup being sterilized and while I understand why some breeders do I would rather try other options. Its been 4 years since I last bred a litter and the main reason is seeing this other breeder get burnt. Would be nice if we could just put in an order to our bitches for just one or two quality pups of whatever sex we required so that no pups had to be sold on. I personally do not desex my puppies at 8 weeks. I realise there is only so much we can do to screen puppy buyers. To date I have not had that issue. Although I recently found out a BYB breeder was telling their puppy buyers that my big red boy was the sire of one of their litters. Would love to know how... when he is locked up here when I am not home. Miraculous conception?? Unfortunately there is nothing to stop the unscrupulous people from doing their dodgy antics. I know of some people who have copied pedigree certificates from those who have websites showing an individual dog's pedigree certificate and using that to say the dog is pedigree. It is amazing what you can do with photoshop.

Ozjen, Sorry. In Queensland at least it is a requirement from Dogs Qld, that papers are supplied with the puppy. If you don't want run the risk of that pup later bred from, desex prior to selling the puppy. It is not up to us as breeders to thumb our noses at SOME of the rules we agree to abide by. But choose to abide by others. It is our rule to supply papers, so therefore we must.

I personally would not be paying a deposit on a puppy that is not yet born. Perhaps if you are really keen on this particular breeder's pups and like the look of their dogs, then ring them and talk to them. Who knows after five minutes of talking to them you and the breeder may decide their dogs while looking nice may not be what you are after?? You may like the look of their dogs... but temperament maybe something else entirely and the temperament of that particular breeders dogs may not be to your liking EG: to work driven as they breed for performance, too soft, too hard, too hyper to name a few. You may like a particular dog/bitch, and if their next litter is by another dog/bitch, do you have to take a puppy from THAT litter or do you wait until they breed from the dog/bitch you like?? Correct me if I am wrong, but I was of the understanding that even now in WA pups have to be registered and come with papers - even if they are "limit registered papers". (Not for show/breed). I know what it USED to be like with some puppies not being registered and coming with papers. But times have changed. If I am going to buy a pedigree dog, I want my papers. For me being in Qld, even competing in sports, at least I can compete as a pedigree dog, not just a dog on the associate register (for non pedigree). As a breeder, I do not ask for a holding deposit until my pups are at least two weeks old. I want to make sure in the first instance I have the eyes/ears open before asking for a deposit and the pups are all putting on weight and are healthy as sometimes pups do fade and die. I also try to match temperament of puppy to owner, not go "this pup is yours - take it or leave it". Of course if there are show pups wanted from the litter, I cannot guarantee sex or individual pups. But I will say this pup is suited to you because........ I do this based on temperament and lifestyle of where that pup is going to be. Not on buyer preference to markings. If I don't have a puppy suitable, then I don't have a puppy suitable.

Unfortunately there are a few breeders who think they are a little bit precious and are the best thing since sliced bread. Some even here on the forums come across the same way. Please persevere. You will find a good breeder, one where you will be happy to deal with and be comfortable with. We are often contacted by people who get the breed name, colour or anything else wrong. The good breeders will look past some of those as the person is just starting their research and will give some basic information about their animals when asked. Not "give me a deposit" then talk attitude. I can see what they are saying in one hand in their response to you. They are wanting to see if you are serious. I know myself I have spent hours on potential puppy buyers only to find out I am wasting my time on them. That happens. If you don't want to go through that.. don't breed. Quite frankly, if someone doesn't want to take the time - let them waste someone else's. To me that goes both ways.

Welcome to my world. I am an animal management officer. Wandering dogs, wandering cats. Unregistered dogs, unregistered cats. People who believe they only need to lock up their cats at night. People who believe that keeping the dog inside they do not have to register it or think that its constant barking will upset the neighbour because it would be muffled by the house. Don't need to desex their animal. It is quite ok to let it wander, come back pregnant and sell the puppies afterwards. Breeding is part of life and the need for their children to see the "miracle of birth" Unwanted (not registered or microchipped) dogs/cats are only kept for three days........

It is Bull S**t that you MUST only get a dog of the opposite sex when introducing a new dog. There are plenty of people who can run multiple females OR multiple (even entire) males together without issue. I run here three entire females and one male. My male has run with up to four other entire males who are proven stud dogs like him. All without issue. I know of people who cannot run two dogs together let alone two females or two males. Don't forget that dogs are also individuals. Not all people like everyone else. Same goes for dogs. Not all dogs like all other dogs. If you get two dominant type dogs (regardless of sex) you are going to have issues of one dog wanting to be dominant over the other. That is pack structure. Where people go do not mix two females or two males, yes it can be worse when you mix two of the same sex, but that is not always the case. The more dogs you have, the more diverse your pack structure battles are going to be. Most often many people are none the wiser for some of the pack battles they are that subtle. The problem with a lot of pet people is when they go to get a new family member, they pick the first one that goes to them thinking in error that "that dog picked me". What they have just chosen is the most confident, most social puppy in the litter. Once a social butterfly, always a social butterfly. Depending on general temperament of lines, dogs in question, the confidence can also come with a bit of dominance. When choosing a new family member, know the temperament of the dog you have already and seek to match in temperament a dog to suit what you have. To achieve this, you may have to look at a few litters to find that right puppy that suits your needs. Not the first one that came to you.

The best way is let the other dog tell him off. I have had two entire bitches hump each other when one is in season. I have had baby puppies try to hump another. I think some is dominance, some is just hormonal, and some is just because they can. I found the best way is let the dog tell off the humper. If they are reluctant to do this, try to distract the dog doing the humping with something else rather than going crook at it. You going crook at the dog only reinforces not to do it infront of you and can make the dog scared of you.

As an Animal Management Officer with a local council: Yards are getting smaller. You look at these new housing estates and the back yard could now be termed as a "court yard". Some yards would not even fit in a swing set or trampoline for a child. You may have a 600 sq block with a 550 sq house covering that block. The only real dog that most people think of is small white yappers or similar. People tend to work longer hours, so the dogs are left at home alone longer. They bark and bark and neighbours complain. As people work longer hours, they spend less time training their dogs to be polite members of society. So when they do go out in public, they are seen as a menace due to bad manners. This sets people's perception (for right or wrong). For others, dogs are not kept under effective control, they get out of yards and roam and cause nuisance. For those dogs that do go out to off lead parks etc, there are fights and other issues because the owners think they can take the dog to the park and let it off and don't think about picking up the poo or keeping an eye on the dog wanting to go around humping others in the park or chasing down some one's small dog. Again public perception is set. People tend to live in a throw away society. Unfortunately, this extends to our pets. While generally speaking, most are responsible. There are a good amount in some income deficient areas who are not. Roaming dogs and cats and unwanted litters.

Personally I think it is a duel responsibility. It is up to the owner to make sure their pets are up to date with everything. If the kennel in question is known to have a problem with ticks (in particular) then it is up to them to provide a safe environment for their boarders. Especially if the dog is going to be there for a length of time. Say for example your dog is going to be boarded over two weeks (normal expiry for any top spot tick medication). Then I would expect (possibly for a fee for at least for the product) the kennel to administer a dose according to specified packet rules. I know of one boarding kennel that used to "dip" every dog that came in. This was because they were in high paralysis tick area. As for tick collars. I am a bit dubious about them. I know of one dog in particular, had a paralysis tick under the collar. The collar was used as per packet instructions and was well within normal operating conditions for length of time on dog etc. When you hear that, it makes you wonder.