Mystiqview

I am with the others. Depends on the need of the C-section. For misrepresented puppies, that is not the bitch's fault. The bitch also determines size, so if there are large and small puppies in there, that is not the sire's fault. He determines sex. For me, only two C-sections should be allowed on a bitch. Especially with breeds who are supposedly free whelping. I think to do any more than two C-sections on a bitch is just plain cruel and you should be looking at getting another bitch or line (again if you have a free whelping breed). There is a lot of cutting required, and as a result scarring will be taking place each time. If you need to constantly do C-sections on a bitch, I would be questioning the viability of continuing with that line. Are we not supposed to be breeding to better the breed? A bitch who cannot whelp naturally continually, is not bettering the breed. (I do understand the need in some circumstances for elect C-sect due to age or singleton etc.) One bitch I had here, had complete uterine inertia on her first litter, to the point where she could not even deliver her first pup. She was about 2 years old, and very fit and healthy. Her mother, grandmother and great grandmother where all free whelpers. I know it was going to be a huge risk if I chose to breed her again, of it happening again. Border Collies should be free whelpers. I kept the only daughter in this litter. Unfortunately she did not make the grade at 14 months and was rehomed as a pet. Her mother I desexed a month prior. For me, that is the end of that line completely. Some very old and lovely bloodlines are gone.

I suppose the best description of colours available are Here: Border Collie Colours In Australia, our breed standard only recognises the following: Black/white Blue/White Red/White Chocolate/White Black Tricolour Blue Merle In all colours, White shall not predominate. Some of the colour breeders are producing a lot of white, which also runs the increased risk of deaf/blind puppies and calling it "piebald". While maybe technically correct when you compare this with piebald in horses, it is not a colour, nor is it something desirable to set out and achieve and try to dress up by calling it a fancy name (which is all about marketing I know). These puppies with excess white, should also be BAER hearing tested, as in some of the lines where it is coming from, already runs hearing issues (as others have produced puppies from very similar lines). The more testing, the more money required to be spent, the less "profit" there is to be made.

Hmm the problem is that with time and by weight of numbers their dogs will become the norm and reduce the median for BC's. The divide maintains the difference for now, but it is a stalemate that has no solution other than the eventual change of the BC guard. Which will result in a change of BC ethos, as new owners with their different perspective of ideal BC and colour, replace the establishment. Regarding price, I would ask, what are they new breeders doing right or different that makes puppy buyers happy to pay that much more for their dogs. Maybe established breeders can incorporate some colours or try and improve the physical type of coloured BC's? or maybe introducing colours is heresy I don't know :) What is the difference between Choc/white and Choc tricolour? The difference between Chocolate/White and Chocolate tricolour is Chocolate/white is the only colour allowed to be registered on the Main Registration. Australia's breed standard does not recognise Chocolate tricolour or Chocolate Merle, so to keep these dogs in a breeding program, they are incorrectly registered as another colour. These colour breeders are not doing anything better than the establishment. If anything they do less. Some of the biggest colour breeders who border of puppy farming, do not hip/elbow score of fully health screen their breeding animals. Some have had four litters on their bitch by the time the bitch is 4 years old. The CCC do not allow us to have more than two litters in an 18 month period. The colour breeders charge what the unsuspecting public are willing to pay. The dogs are not better quality. I am not saying the establishment have always produced top rate dogs. The more you breed, the greater chance there is for the breeder to breed something with a problem. There are some who have colour naturally appearing in their lines can keep a degree of colour and keep the quality. The black/white dog is still the preferred in the show ring. There have been some successful coloured dogs. Red/white or Blue/white tend to be the ones who do make it in the ring. There has also been the odd Chocolate/White who has been successful. Some will say it has to do with the person on the end of the lead, others say the conformation of the dog.

Lilli, Unfortunately there is a big divide between the establishment and the colour breeders here now. Particularly in Queensland recently there have been a rise in their numbers. Many a respected breeder has tried to help, guide and assist them along the way and have been met with a brick wall. Why go with the establishment who sell their quality dogs for under $1000 when you can breed colour and sell it anywhere from $1500 plus? They also ignore the Australian Breed standard and incorrectly register their dogs on the Main Register as our standard do not allow all the colours as overseas countries. (EG; Choc Merle, Choc tricolour, Blue tricolour, Sable, lilac) These will more than likely be registered as Chocolate/white, Blue Merle, Blue/white, Tricolour and either Chocolate or Blue in the case of lilac. I agree, there are only so much you can learn from books or the internet. New breeders do need a responsible mentor. I have been lucky in that I have had the support and backing from some long term respected breeders.

I make leads as well. Leather. Professionally trained by a master plaiter. Samples:

Everything that is going as a pet goes on limited registration. While it will not stop people from breeding with the dog, it does prevent them from registering the litter with the ANKC. Ethical breeders spend a lot of time researching lines, health testing and building up networks and partnerships with other responsible breeders. The old breeders are leaving the breed. There goes the knowledge and expertise with them. In my breed, like many others, there is a dramatic increase on the popular colours and bad breeding practices by people who are wanting to cash in on the money that can be gained by breeding these popular colours. In recent years, particularly in SE Queensland, the raise of the colour breeders is alarming and likewise disturbing. They are using inferior dogs in their breeding practices, not doing all the relevant health testing and most of all not researching their lines for known issues with particular animals or group of animals, thus propagating these same faults and issues. They do not seem to care the quality they are putting out there is substandard nor do they really care if the dog later has issue with health or temperament. The focus of the $$$ now. They see no issue in having four litters on a 5 year old bitch by back to back breeding two seasons in a row, giving a 12 month break (because CCC demand no more than 2 litters in an 18 month period). They are breeding colours that should not be bred together, nor are taking into consideration the lack of pigment some of these animals are having. Why should the hard work of a few dedicated breeders who really care about the breed be subjected and misused by the rising unethical ones? Too many now are wanting to cash in on the quick buck and make money where they can. It is not for the love of the breed or the betterment of the breed they choose to breed. There is nothing wrong with having a colour preference. Colour should not be the predetermining factor for choosing the dogs to breed two animals. The dog should compliment the bitch and vice versa. These breeders do not research their lines, nor want to know about what has come before the dogs they now have. If some of them only took the time to really care, they would be in for a rude shock. They claim the dogs would suit all disciplines, but have never set foot in any of them. If they have, it has only to go to a baby show or two to say they have "shown". It is sad to say that we cannot trust anyone any more. But that is seeming to be the case. For those who try to do the right thing are met with distrust from the old respected breeders wondering if they are there to ruin their hard work and lines. Those who are new to the breed distrust the ones coming after them for they want to protect their reputation for wanting to do the right thing. So it begins a vicious circle. The choice of main verses limited. It's an easy one. Limited.

Do a you tube google for the VW superbowl ad. Damn brilliant!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-9EYFJ4Clo

I have used it on all my bc's without issues. I think there is also a warning on the leaflet in the packet, it should not be used on puppies under 14 weeks, although the vet recommends not under 6 months. When I was a mobile groomer, some customers were able to use it without side effects on the dogs. The others ranged from mild lethargy to vomiting. Those that could use the product, managed to get 6-8 weeks out of the product between doses. Would also recommend doing the environment and bedding, as this this is the main cause for re-infestation and will help speed up the process of breaking the cycle.

Have you read the bit where there is a caution of being given in conjunction with ivemectin products. No actual proof as all testing on the product is still not comprehensive. There has been testing, but the product has not been around long enough for long term test results.

My Trek leaks too. It does not have the same amount of slots on the doors as the Toledo or similar designs. My bigget issue would be condensation at night dropping from the roof on the dogs and bedding as their trailers are not lined. I suppose my biggest complaint about the Treks would be the finishing touches were not there. We had to put the spare tyre on (their mounting point under the back is a really stupid idea). My hubby made a bracket to fix it to a side mudguard.. No light inside. (I bought those LED strip lights and stuck it to the roof. The nosecone leaks through the piano hinge (had to silicon that up to prevent leakage). I used to have an old 3 berth Toledo. It used to leak through the whirly birds. It was rusting between the inside skin and the cladding on the outside. Heavy trailer, but I think for its age was quite good.

I paid $3800 for a new Trek a two years ago. They are pretty basic though. I used to have a Toledo. I think I prefer them. Although there are some good/bad points with both designs

hmmmmmm

Thanks Meea. I got tired of entering them in manually all the time, so got an entry form, scanned it and filled in all the fields. I do have a full copy of acrobat. I have mine saved permanently, and just print off more.

Market Share is our standing against the puppy farmers, the back yard breeders and pet shops. We do not need to advertise or state we wish to cover costs or even make a profit. While there are cases that THIS litter may return a profit on the outgoing costs, the money goes back to the breeding program, the upkeep and care of the bitch and entries. The Canine associations do not do a real effort to promote the benefits of the pedigree dog. Breeders need to rise above That is the truth. Some desreputable (even registered) breeders are bringing down the better ones. The attitude of some of the reputable breeders are bringing down some of the other reputable breeders by their high and mighty attitudes. Especially if the puppy enquiry reaches them first. The perception is then re-inforced. As in every "business" there are time wasters. That is part and parcel when you are selling something, no matter the product. That does not mean we have to be rude, over the top or whatever the case to those enquiries. Some of the most genuine enquires are from a new person who has not ever heard of DOL or know the correct "protocol" for contacting registered breeders. There is nothing wrong in the marketing strategies of business. If this increases the public perception of registered breeders, changes consumer habits of going to a pet store or a back yard breeder, then where is the problem? Breeders are still individual. The pet stores and puppy farms are united.

Yes, yes, we all acknowledge that it's not meant to be denigrating but I suggest that the average pet owner isn't aware of these little descriptors. The average pet owner is not aware of many of the "terms" used by breeders. I know from puppy enquiries I get, there are still a lot of breeders out there who do not take the time to remember these people may not know anything and do not take time to explain some of the terms we use. We just take it for granted they know, and they unfortunately may feel embarrassed to show their ignorance and ask for an explaination.

I have an editable pdf which I can send. You cannot save it unless you have a full version of acrobat. Otherwise you can just fill it in and print Blank Entry Forms 4 to a page.pdf

I don't use "pet quality" or "show quality" I ask them what their lifestyle is, what they are after in a dog and recommend a puppy to them. "I think this puppy is best suited to you BECAUSE......." ETA: I would much rather try to match personality of the puppy to the owner's circumstances. If I don't think I have anything suitable, I don't sell them a dog. If they like the puppy I am looking at, I tell them I am looking at keeping this puppy here. If I don't choose it, I can give you first option. My dogs are pets first and show dogs second. Showing takes up probably 3 weekends a month. The rest of the time, the dogs are pets.

Like +10

The puppy does not fit in with our calm lifestyle. It was returned 24 hours later. The pup woke them up ONCE in the middle of the night to go to the toilet on the FIRST night. The puppy they had was the most relaxed and laid back puppy of the litter. Any more quiet it would be walking backwards. At the pound: Since the school holidays started, the pound had been inundated with surrendered pets. One excuse the girls told me was they had "found" a border collie about a month ago and had held him pending owner claiming. A few questions later revealed the person was able to find someone to baby sit the SWF, but had problems finding someone to baby sit the border collie, so it had to to go the pound

Either I was not clear in my post or you have missed something. Nowhere in my post did I say it's the dog's fault for ending up in the pound. In nearly all cases, it is the owner's fault for the dog ending up in the pound. Please re-read my post. I am not knocking FTGH or pound dogs. If the dogs had better owners, and were raised in different conditions, then I am pretty confident the dogs would not be there. The problem is once a dog gets the pound at an older age, the traits it has learnt on its journey can be hard to break. The reason the dog has those traits in the first place can be from a number of influences as any here would agree. Mostly from poor upbringing (as such as my neighbour's dog). That dog was not inherently bad. It developed those traits due to its treatment. Unfortunately, as the dog was being fed, watered and had shelter, you could not report the dog for being abused. The people do not deserve or should be able to keep pets. They now have two SWF dogs and needless to say, they yap and yap and yap non stop. The problem is not the dogs themselves. It is the people who get the animals. Incorrect breed, incorrect temperament for their lifestyle or the people should only be given pet rocks instead. Personally I think people need a permit to keep an animal. They need to prove they are capable of looking after an animal before getting one and then treating it like everything else in today's society. A throw away item. ETA: My neighbours are trailer trash personified. The 14 year old daughter would make a sailor blush and soon follow the mother into single motherhood. The 12 year old son, well, he will soon to grow up with a criminal history. He spends more day in truancy drinking and smoking.

Personally I think sporting dogs need to be ABOVE pet quality and certainly up there with breed quality. By pure nature of the sport (look at agaility, jumping and other more strenuous dog sports). By the nature of the athlete, you need and want something better than the norm if you want to lessen the risk of structural injuries. I have one dog of mine in an agility home. One who is a working sheep/shed border collie. Both of these dogs need to have that edge in order to keep up with the demands placed on them. The agility dog, the fault is colour. She passed her DNA tests for genetic disease, has great temperament. Unfortunately our breed standard does not recognise her colour. The shed dog was sold to a friend for their breeding program. It has been um taken by the husband to be a working dog as he is a shearer. She is a damn fine little worker. There are sporting breeders who say they do not give a damn about the breed standard. That is fine as it is their personal opinion. But have they really stopped to consider what it is? While this generation has not fallen ill to structural injuries. I know of some dogs from a kennel in particular who breed working dogs, who have had a number of structural issues in their performance dogs. And while they have titles after their name, have had to undergo surgery on shoulders to get them there. Who is more correct? Personally I would rather have a dog the incorrect colour making it "pet quality" than a dog who meets most of the breed standards but fails in conformational structure who then breaks down later on, possibly costing the owner thousands in operations.

THe more you make a fuss of the dogs during the fireworks, the more they will be agitated. Crate them somewhere safe where they cannot bolt or run off. You be there and act normal as if it is just another "normal" night. If they are stressed, they probably will not want to eat/drink.

I have seen it too many times on DOL over the years. Some people look at "pet quality" as if it has two heads or something. I don't get it. When you are looking at a breeding dog, the construction needs to be the best as it is these traits you want to continue on. Temperament is another.. In the show ring, you do not want a sook who all they want to do is sleep. You need a "look at me pizazz" temperament. If you have two pups with equal quality constuction and that is the different in temperament.. the "look at me" is better for the show ring, and the sook is better for a pet person. Showing is a competitive sport. Just like obedience, agility and any of the other dog sports is competitive. A show/breed dog may have slightly better turn of stifle where as the pet dog is straighter in stifle. The straighter dog, is not necessarily going to break down, or anything like that. It just means a sibling is better than it. The straight stifled dog may still competively compete in another sport if placed in such a home. Markings. In my breed. A blue eye is considered a fault. There is nothing wrong with a blue eye. Some BYB go out of their way to advertise this "feature". The dog can see equally well out of a blue eye or brown. Half white faces are also not desired, but again, some people make a feature out of it, and some pet people love this on a border collie.

I really hate to be negative or horrible here. I work for a local council and have worked at a pound. Including assisting the vet in putting to sleep dogs and cats. Some animals you feel sorry for. Others, well, you go it is the best thing for the animal. A animal welfare agency with a "Zero kill policy/aim" have recently taken over our pound. The animal destruction bins after destruction day is just as much as what it was when the council was managing the pound. While it is great for some people to adopt a dog or cat from a pound. You also have to remember WHY the animal was dumped there in the first place. I am not slagging any welfare groups, breeders or anyone here. Unfortunately it is not just a pure case of where the dog was bought from. Although statistics say, those bought from pedigree breeders are less likely to find a way into a pound than those animals that are bought elsewhere. The pound I was in: High number of staffy and staffy x's and other similar breeds Dogs ended up in the pound were chronic escape artists who the owners had finally had enough Other dogs were seized as part of a dog attack or similar (dog attack did not have to be serious, in many cases the owners were required to improve fencing to contain the dog. The attacks were minor in nature. The working dogs (BC's, Kelpies, Cattle etc) were high drive and most owners would not be able to br cope with them as many were cross farm working dogs. Some very large dogs came in like Maremma's. These were very nice and placid. Small fluffy dogs have a higher chance of being rehomed than a medium to large dog Look at the above brief rundown of the animals in the pound. You have to remember WHY the dog was in the pound to start with... Escape artists: do you have a 6 foot fence and suitable containment to KEEP the animal in?? Barkers: Very hard to control in suburbia. Do you have the time to spend on fixing it? Large dogs: Do you have the ROOM and TIME to devote to exercise and training for a large dog Working dog: same as the large dog, barkers and escape artists. The problem I saw it while working in the pound, is the long criticism of breeders and trainers. People buy the wrong dog/breed/personality type for their situation. They buy a fad animal, or a cheap animal not thinking about the long term of keeping the said animal. Nothing against the staffy people in here: Staffies are known to be great family pets, devoted etc. They also can be great escape artists. One thing often overlooked with general populace. Classic example is my neighbour. The 14 year old daughter came home with a 6 week FTGH staffy cross puppy. When asked "Why" she responded it was "FREE". I told her even if they bought the dog, that is the cheapest part of KEEPING a dog. They are housing commission and on the dole. So no income. They drink heaps and smoke heaps, so no money. The 12 year old son came over to me and demanded I give them dog food until pension day. (I feed premium). Two days after getting the dog, it went through the open top steps and fell injuring a leg. Some hours after, the son came over to me and demanded I look at their dog. I am no vet. I felt the leg, said as much and advised them how to (cheaply) stop the puppy from going through the open backed steps. Two days after this again, it went through the steps and injured the opposite side leg. I did not even have a chance to turn the engine off in my car after arriving home from work when they demanded again I look at the pup as they "did not have enough money for the vet". The dog was left to its own devices in the back yard. The son used to kick it around and down the steps. It barked constantly, mouthed everyone, had no manners and destroyed furniture and things under the house. The dog was thrown some food and maybe a bone or two. At about 6 months of age, it came into season and they thought to make money. While I was at work, they threw the bitch over my fence so hopefully my red/white pedigree border collie could mate with it and they could have puppies. Thankfully nothing happened, and my neighbour told them to get out of my yard. Somewhere in between here, they decided to increase the height of their fence. (Typical old housing commission place with 3 foot chainwire fence). They got tomato stakes and chicken wire. Needless to say, this did not keep the dog in. It just bent the chicken wire and broke the tomato stakes. Some 12 months after getting this pup. It is now a menace to the neighbourhood. They advertised it on Gumtree FTGH. Some people took it as they already had a staffy. They had the dog for 2 hours!!! They brought it back because it attacked their existing staffy. (No surprise there). My neighbour then gave them $50 and told them to take it to the RSPCA or THEY will. The dog went to the RSPCA. I know as well as anyone else reading this, what would have happened to that dog. Realistically, it is probably the best thing TO happen to it. Safer for the wider community. If you have the time and effort, you MAY have been able to retrain the dog. Trying to retrain a 12 month old staffy who is aggressive, unmannered, and just all round not a nice dog. This dog in a different home, would no doubt be a different dog. Before people really want to start slagging breeders etc. They really need to stop thinking with their emotions and look at the root cause of the problem. It is the age old saying of supply and demand. BYB and unfortunately to say Registered (BYB/puppy farmers) are popping up more and more. Take a look in the BC listings on DOL for example and see all the colour breeders breeding fad colour puppies for the general population. There are those who have permanent ads up there for coloured puppies. Only this morning, I and many other of my breeder counterparts received a SMS text in the early hours of this morning (Mine was 2:43am) wanting a "wheaten/white" pup to go with their 5 year old black/white male.

If you can find it: "Zoff" It was made for those who have to wear medical things attached by glue to remove the sticky. Great stuff.