m-j

Yes we have an exsisting problem and something needs to be done about it, but stopping the industry tomorrow won't help the exsisting greys, it will kill them. to change laws etc will save them. If regos are increased by certain % and the extra revenue channelled into an independent body to monitor and police greyhound's lives before, during and after their racing career how can that be harmful?

Because they legally can kill the slow one to "make room" for the next Brett Lee, change laws, monitor and police with severe consequences for breaking those laws, it will reduce it dramatically. As Cavnrott said take the industry and gambling away people will find another avenue to feed their addiction by taking it underground where it can't be monitored. That would be very bad news for the animals and the gamblers that can't pay their debt back. If it is monitored and owners are made accountable till the dog is rehomed the dogs lives will be saved, people won't lose jobs, gamblers can receive help (RCG legislation).

Sure they love running/racing but you can't convince me that trainers or owners have the dogs enjoyment of running at heart. If there was no money involved, you think many trainers would do it? Most other dog sports COST the owners money, not make it. I have previously stated I like dog sport. Also greyhound racing is an industry, not a hobby. Anybody who thinks they are definitely going to make money out of racing dogs is an idiot. Some do but the trainers and other involved in the industry that I know have a job that supplements their hobby A girlfriend of mine makes more in monetary terms with the dog food she wins trialling dogs than the vast majority of greyhound owners ever do racing their dogs. Just for the record she is a very ethical trainer her dogs are truly enjoyable to watch working because they love doing it.

The dogs are doing something they really love to do everyday. Not many dogs can claim they get to do that. If the human's attitude to that dog is one of racing as a hobby and that person is accountable (accountable being they need to rehome the dog when it has finished racing and have high regard for the dog's welfare until it is) why would it be different to any other sport? Yes it has!!! I have worked in pubs for 35 yrs when I first started the publicans attitude was sell sell sell, now it is sell with caution. I'm quite happy to oblige as I don't want to cop an $11,000 fine, plus in the past I have been the victim of alcohol fuelled violence. The only stats that I know of are in the seventies pre alcohol laws there were 10,000,000 cars on the road in Australia and 4 times the amount of alcohol related deaths on the roads than there is now. At a guess there might be 10,000,000 cars on the road in Sydney and Melbourne alone these days. If the alcohol is monitored and policed you don't have the issues you mentioned, unfortunately alcohol consumed at home cannot be monitored and some publicans are greedy or desperate (these laws have killed many small pubs). Drugs are a contributing factor to the violence and crimes committed by drunk people also. A girlfriend of mine who is a nurse in an Er unit told me this. The spotlight shouldn't go away, as I have mentioned in the other thread on this topic it should be policed by an independent body with owners, breeders, trainers and the TAB and bookies should be financing it for all racing. This would weed out the greedy and unethical. It may well end the industry but at least it will be a slow death and lives of many dogs would be saved unlike if the industry comes to an abrupt end. Does anyone know the stats of dogs euthanized in pounds each year? I feel pretty confident the stats would be higher than for Greyhounds and they are the ones we know about. I have rehomed non greys and have an ACD in my yard at the moment that were going to be shot, they weren't going to make it to the pound to become a stat either and I'm sure they aren't the only ones.

Among the tens of thousands of racing greyhounds across the country i'd hazard a guess that only a tiny percentage are waking up inside a nice warm home this morning. Most of them will be waking up in a tiny concrete cell with a sack bed and a coat on if they're lucky. For our greed, entertainment and viewing pleasure. I'm guessing the same can be said for the 100's of thousands of pet dogs around the country. They sleep inside a warm house then they are put outside in a boring back yard or even worse (for a young dog) left inside with no company while their owner goes to work so the dog is alone for 8 plus hours, which is very contradictory to their innate desire to have the pack with them. Whereas the Greyhounds Iworked with were double rugged, in kennels that had trampoline beds with carpet In the morning they were let out in empty out yards where they run up and down with other dogs , they are then exercised and left out in day yards to laze around, to chew their bones or 4x2's, with lots of company and mental stimulation as there is always someone around and there is lots of activity. Plus they get to do something that they absolutely love doing everyday. My experience has been that when taking the dogs back to their kennels, the majority of dogs actually pull to go back into them and when you open the door they walk in voluntarily, quite happily. When I took one of my girls (new rescue) to the vet yesterday to have sutures removed we had a 30 min wait as the vets were busy. Most of that time she had her tail tucked firmly between her legs, her pupils were fully dilated she had a roach back meanwhile there was a dog out the back screaming intermittently (a i'm locked up in strange place with no.one around that I know scream), if she was in to be euthanised would you say that she had enjoyed the last 30mins of her life. As opposed to a possible scenario of a grey going for a car ride, then for a walk in bushland and then while the dog is totally oblivious of what is about to happen a gun is put to the back of their head. I have never done this personally or had it done to any dog I have had and nor do I condone anyone (vet or otherwise) shooting a healthy animal or one that can cured for a reasonable financial outlay, but if you were a dog, which 30 mins would you rather have as your last? While I can't say that this is what happened to these poor dogs and the others that have been shot, it can't be said it didn't either. I agree with everyone that says take the greed out of the industry MAKE owners/trainers ACCOUNTABLE for their dogs welfare during and AFTER racing. That would cut down demand so supply would also go because it would make it a very expensive hobby. It is being said that the culture will never change, I believe it can, it worked with alcohol (simply because the laws in place are policed and education. People learned there was going to be consequences) where the culture to get drunk on reasonably regular basis wasn't a bad thing, to have a drink for all occasions was ok, alcohol at any gathering was a must and it was even seen as ok to drink and drive. These attitudes have changed and they were far more entrenched into our culture than the old time attitude of some greyhound trainers/owners.

So apart from the wastage and disposal of the dogs and repercussions from greed and lack of empathy from the scumbags that own the dogs, (which are all very valid reasons to dislike the scumbags that do this) what is it that makes you think the industry/sport is repulsive? Bearing in mind there are people involved in this sport that do the right thing and their dog's welfare during and after racing is important to them.

I'm just curious would anyone be against the industry if all the dog's owners (owners decide the fate of the dogs not the trainers) were made to be responsible for their dogs, just like any other dog owner?

Couldn't registration prices be increased so that the extra income can go to an independent body to employ people to police greyhound facilities. The TAB/bookies could give a percentage of income from dog racing to that independent body as they are the big winners from gambling. Change laws so that if you have purchased a greyhound you wish to race it must be from and go through registered greyhound facilities. If you have registered your property as a greyhound facility you must allow unannounced inspections. Since they can record all breeding dog's DNA, they can record and check if all dogs that are racing have been through registered facilities. Increased prices will help prevent breeding on a whim. I'm guessing we all know that not all show breeders are ethical, look at Crufts this year. I know of a family that put their kids second to the dogs and they suffered for it, plus the dog's life wasn't what I would say was ideal. I've heard whispers about some dog sport competitors just as I had heard whispers about live baiting. I've seen many many dogs not enjoying their experience in the show ring, trial ring or participating in a training session you can see they would rather be anywhere else. I'm guessing not on the same scale as money but self esteem can be a powerful motivator to win at all costs too, .

Here here!!! I couldn't agree more. In many ways the industry has the mind set of the "old days" where animals didn't have needs, they were animals, Back when leaving dogs on chains day in day out was accepted, dogs not needing training until they were 6mths old and then nailing them to the wall for doing natural dog behaviours labelled as naughty by humans, Koehler in the 50's, 60's and 70's and others like him. I did some things I'm not proud to say I did because that's what I was told that's what you needed to do. As a dog training instructor (obedience and behaviour, not racing), in the last twenty odd years I have heard some pretty sad stories from very nice people who were given bad advise because of these attitudes. When I first started using positive motivation I copped a heap of flack, those that I still know have changed through being shown what to do and seeing results, not from me but others. These attitudes have changed, not overnight, but they did, I believe this industry's attitude can also with the right type of pressure in the right place.

Hopefully any change/reforms that are made because of the 4 corners program will be followed up. If you are doing the right thing it shouldn't really be an issue. That's my very simplistic view of it anyway. I can remember my boss being really peeved that he built the kennels to the specs and they never got checked.

Thanks, as I said earlier I really do feel that banning racing would not be beneficial to either the dogs or ethical owners and trainers. Some of these reforms I would like to see put in place have been said to me by both present and past trainers and owners, people like Mita's friend.

I believe there are already rules in place to cover the disposal of dogs not wanted and also breeding restrictions. Yes but they were pretty lax which is why the policing needs to be done, well that has been my experience with rescuing and rehoming dogs from the kennels. It did make it easy for me as I hate paperwork but any owners can just as easily dispose of their dog in other ways, no questions asked. As far as I'm aware it is quite ok to mate two dogs together so long as they are registered. Many dogs that are registered haven't raced they may waiting see if some relative is going to do ok in a race and then they will be bred from and the pups advertised as their dam being full litter sister to wiz bang greyhound. I know this as I have received girls to rehome whose sister didn't quite do what was hoped for.

True but surprise visits at any time of the day by authorities (preferably an independent body) could help to keep people reasonably honest, it has worked in hotels with the RSA laws. Owners and breeders should have to explain what happened to the pups that weren't registered as race dogs and they should be required to produce proof of what happened to them, same when the dog has finished racing . Only dogs and bitches that have officially run x time over x distance should allowed to be bred from. In the time I was at the kennels my boss had never had a visit to check that the kennels were up to standard. I have seen dogs injure themselves just by running in races or during training/exercise, no interference from other dogs or objects. I've never had that as much with other breeds I have owned or worked with. I only let my dogs (pets) off lead in certain places, only one at a time, I hold the other dogs I have with me right next to me and I hold my breathe while they are running around. I'm hopeless To be fair I have had two dogs break their legs in my flat clear back yard, one clipped the clothes line and the other I didn't see, another fell over and smashed his shoulder into many little pieces while just running in an area he had run around in many times before.

Not what I have found. I worked at a rearing and spelling kennel for 10 yrs, my job there was to teach the dogs to chase a toy, easiest job I've ever had. With the hundreds of dogs I did this with there was only two that I just couldn't get to chase the toy. I have had dogs pass up the opportunity to chase wild rabbits that just happened to be in the paddock we were in to continue chasing after a toy. Not all the dogs were straight onto the toy for various reasons, but the closest I ever came to using an animal was to scent a toy with some fox fur I got from some road kill. To be honest I'm actually surprised trainers bother to take the risk to live bait as the dog's body language and enthusiasm and determination that was displayed in the 4 corners report was nothing that I haven't seen thousands of times with a toy and with dogs that initially weren't interested in chasing. I mean look at detection dogs, I have seen videos of dogs lunging madly on prong collars to go and search for a scent all this for the opportunity to play with a toy. I think it would not be beneficial to stop racing, the rules that are already in place and those that will be put into place need to be POLICED. Rules are not worth a pinch of poo if they aren't policed. The dogs absolutely love running and to take away the opportunity to do so would be sad. I know pet dogs get this opportunity but generally the terrain they run around on isn't as safe as a sand track. If there were as many pet dogs doing lure coursing as there is racing each week I feel quite confident I'm right in saying there would be more accidents . Greyhounds are the most accident prone breed I ever worked with or owned. That's just my two cents worth.

If the media portrayal of the story is correct this man is an immature *spoilt brat* inflicting such horrendous injuries on a poor helpless dog because his girlfriend of 5 weeks gave it more attention and it pooed on the carpet,WTF??? I'm sure many people have been in the same stressful situation as him, going through a divorce and the next relationship not going to plan, but they have managed to leave the family pet intact. I find his reasons for doing this absolutely pathetic. It was mentioned that it was the only time he has behaved like this, but as it seems that it was an extremely violent, repeated assult (as I doubt that one blow could do that much damage), that to me is the bit to be concerned about. Professionally I would not let this man within cooee of my family or myself. He doesn't appear to be able to keep himself together under stress or doesn't know how to recognise that he's not coping.

Can't tell you much about arousal but I have the same problem with my Greys (but I don't think to the same extent) one in particular and with the young dogs at work. I use massage (Greys are very responsive to massage) when or if I see them in the nanosecond it takes them to load up if I can place my hands on their neck and start a slow massage it definately helps. I also move slowly myself and the feeling I try emulate is the same way you feel when you are just about to fall asleep. I practise this in times of no arousal and I use the word settle so they become conditioned to the word meaning calm down. Having said this I haven't done it off lead in the big wide world just in small areas (back yard) or on lead. I only let mine off lead in certain places and by themselves as I are also concerned with injury I've seen too many dogs hurt themselves and others through running around in that state. Thanks m-j :) it's really interesting to hear your experiences with over-arousal. I will definitely give that relaxing massage a go. I have actually noticed that stroking her neck can help her when her arousal starts to climb. Did you follow any specific massage protocol? I have the book Control Unleashed and I know it has a bit on massage in there that I could use to guide me. Not really as I use where ever the dog responds to. My ACD responds to massage on her chest as the neck area does very little for her whereas the Greys love neck massages. If I massage over their rump they are back up there instantly. The only protocols I adhere to are slow circular massage with my fingers. When I've finished and the dog is calm I don't just lift my hands off I lightly stroke the dog and lift them off at the end of the stroke if that makes sense along with the mindset and slow movements I mentioned.

Can't tell you much about arousal but I have the same problem with my Greys (but I don't think to the same extent) one in particular and with the young dogs at work. I use massage (Greys are very responsive to massage) when or if I see them in the nanosecond it takes them to load up if I can place my hands on their neck and start a slow massage it definately helps. I also move slowly myself and the feeling I try emulate is the same way you feel when you are just about to fall asleep. I practise this in times of no arousal and I use the word settle so they become conditioned to the word meaning calm down. Having said this I haven't done it off lead in the big wide world just in small areas (back yard) or on lead. I only let mine off lead in certain places and by themselves as I are also concerned with injury I've seen too many dogs hurt themselves and others through running around in that state.

Hi Have you tried giving him some way of keeping him busy while you aren't at home i.e. scatter his dry food through the yard you keep him in so he has to search for his food, put his food in various things so that he has to problem solve to get his food. One of my favorites is to get a plastic bottle that has a handle, put holes in the bottom of the bottle just slightly larger than the dry food you give him. To the handle attach some bugee cord and piece of rope (1m)covered by a pvc pipe or hose, then attach a toy to the other end of the rope. Put some dry food in the bottle attach the bungee cord to a secure structure (pergola)and then encourage your dog to tug on the toy. The food falls out and they can eat their dinner like this, it is a slow way for them to eat and they are active as well. When I'm first teaching a dog to play these games I usually put some pieces of liver in with the dry food to give the dog some real incentive to continue tugging on the toy or searching and only when he is hungry.

Not only is it effective but I believe can sometimes be the best way to quieten a large animal (like a young horse that has had very little or no handling) so the trainer stays safe.

+1....the moment a clicker trained dog reliable in a sterile environment meets high value distraction, the clicker training goes out the window. I agree if the dog is not conditioned or had that conditioning generalised ,it will definately do that. A dog that is conditioned and generalised PROPERLY will respond under high distraction. Just as a dog that doesn't understand or care about the promise of a unpleasant consequence for inappropriate behaviour and it hasn't been generalised, will blow off it's owner.

She has got it that is the response you are getting. She needs something more appealing to be associated with the click to become more animated, as has been said.

I'm feeling appreciated :) :laugh: :laugh:

Wishing Maggie a speedy recovery.

I agree with what is being said re a determined high drive grey but I have been pleasantly surprised by the greys i train at work ignoring live prey (wild rabbits on the property not bait) in favour of the promised reward of a game with a toy, the most notable being an extremely high drive dog that had been raised by us and my job is to enhance/build their prey drive with a toy, she had gone to breaker when she came back all she wanted to do was hunt for rabbits, which didn't help her get fit so we started doing hand slips with toys. This got her mind back on the job. Only a few weeks ago I had just let her go when I noticed my boss had flushed out two rabbits that were heading our way (he was a good 60-70m ahead) I nearly had kittens as all I could think was that she would spot these rabbits, turn and chase them (we were all in a long paddock 3mx450m) only to crash into the gate as the rabbits go under and she doesn;t see it. Anyhow that didn't happen she saw them faulted in her pace and the took off again as she decided the toy that was now about 100+m away as better value woohoo So with training there is hope. I'm not naieve enough to say it will work with all but this dog is high drive. Without the conditioning I know she would have turned and chased those rabbits, they passed about 1.5m away from her.

Thanks, you know what those cool, calm, collected Greys can be like :)