m-j

I know next to nothing about Arabs but I have heard they are good endurance horses, but to be still doing it as his age and winning I think is very commendable

Wow 26! he looks great.

You only need to look at other things that are illegal, drugs being one example it takes a lot more ground to grow a crop of marijuana on a commercial (for want of a better word) basis than it would to have a rough race track, even with hydroponics, yet they manage it. The countries overseas that have decriminalised drugs still have addicts but the criminal organisations have gone onto selling other illegal items) as the trade for drugs isn't as good anymore and the addicts are safer which is more than can be said for the drug users over here. Yes I do believe that people would participate in illegal dog racing here just like they do overseas. It would be another racket that organised crime could indulge in. With dog fighting, live lure coursing the sport itself is cruel, dog racing isn't cruel only the human cheats are, the dogs love it just like lure coursers, flyball dogs love their sport. Maybe the minority will still spoil it with the new reforms (if they go through) for the majority, but I've noticed that people are not so worried about speaking up now not like they used to be. and having covert surveillance laws changed will certainly make it easier to actually catch people. Change has happened and still is happening. As I have said before to take another industry away and put more people from the industry and the industries that depend on it out there vying for the few jobs that are available (compared to the people looking for work) would not be a good thing for anybody.

Thanks. This is actually a good example of why the industry should continue and be made transparent. The doping allegations were last September yes I agree h should have been suspended there and then but that isn't how the law works (the idiot who killed those people in Melbourne still hasn't been charged despite the whole country knowing who it was and what he did) I wouldn't mind betting all his dogs were swabbed last night and they would have been clean as a whistle. Also it was in SA they aren't coming under the same scrutiny as NSW but it is only a matter of time. If it gets abolished and goes underground as it has in countries OS that it is banned in, no transparency and the people who would be involved in that certainly wouldn't be even vaguely concerned for the dogs welfare. Making things illegal doesn't stop them, the road rules are an example of this, I wonder how many people on this forum can say they have NEVER since they've had their license gone even 1 km over the speed limit inadvertently or otherwise.

You couldn't provide a link could you I can't find anything on it.

I am talking about dogs that had experienced both experiences. Not all the dogs I worked with had, but quite a few had. I watched the four corners live baiting episode watched the reactions of the dogs and thought why would you bother when a toy used properly produces the same reaction and enthusiasm.

Sorry but this couldn't be further from the truth, if you use a toy properly you will get just as good results, I spent 10 yrs doing it with 100's of dogs including many that had previously stopped chasing given a kill and they were then sent to me to get them to chase, I never failed, live baiting did. The bottom line is they aren't chasing a rabbit, possum etc around the track. I put this myth in the same category as you can't train an obedience dog with reward of a food or toy, science has made it so we can.

It is happening only last week some proposals were put forward to the government as to how the industry would be regulated. It is some of the toughest regulation pertaining to the welfare of animals that any animal industry has. http://www.racing.justice.nsw.gov.au/Documents/final-panel-report-february-2017.pdf

This is fantastic, well done WM. He looks lovely. I'm glad they like him.

with a bit of luck by the time it happens there will be so few dogs and puppies of any breed available anyone who really wants a dog but cant find one will snap them up. as for if the vic govt get their planned changes though that will be sooner than you can possibly imagine I hope that isn't the case but if it did as you said would be good for the Greys maybe they're not everyone's cup of tea. There won't be any greys. Will that make you finally happy? If there is no dog breeding at all? Cos that's what's happening in Victoria right now. I have no time for people who cannot see past their own nose. Huh?? Are you talking to me? If so can you please elaborate as I don't understand what you are getting at. This is a thread on racing Greys and the demise of an industry not breeding dogs in general. Either you're disingenuous or you don't know what you're writing. What did you think asal meant by referencing the Victorian legislation? And I started my post by writing this "I hope that isn't the case" the rest was sarcasm as I believe they will be gone first because the AR want to stop racing not just make reforms to make it more difficult like they do with the breeding of dogs as is my understanding from the little bit of the thread on the vic legislation I have read, as I mentioned previously. Sorry you didn't understand that. ETA The sarcasm wasn't directed at asal, it was for the whole mess in both cases.

with a bit of luck by the time it happens there will be so few dogs and puppies of any breed available anyone who really wants a dog but cant find one will snap them up. as for if the vic govt get their planned changes though that will be sooner than you can possibly imagine I hope that isn't the case but if it did as you said would be good for the Greys maybe they're not everyone's cup of tea. There won't be any greys. Will that make you finally happy? If there is no dog breeding at all? Cos that's what's happening in Victoria right now. I have no time for people who cannot see past their own nose. Huh?? Are you talking to me? If so can you please elaborate as I don't understand what you are getting at. This is a thread on racing Greys and the demise of an industry not breeding dogs in general. SOMEDAY, someone will do a history of this and believe it or not, they will see this as all linked, but since the dog world is so utterly divided each is failing to see that. But once the smoke has cleared it will be noticed one day I can see the link between the push by the pollies for welfare in both industries and how the changes are going to affect the way things are done, but for the moment I'm interested in how to save dog's lives. I had pups in the kennels I worked in that weren't mine but I invested a lot of time and emotion into that may be caught up in this fiasco I want to find ways to help them. I empathise with the breeders but as I have never bred a dog, only ever owned one dog that I bought from a registered breeder (they have all been rescues of many different breeds and xbreds)I don't feel that I am qualified to comment on the issues surrounding registered breeders.

with a bit of luck by the time it happens there will be so few dogs and puppies of any breed available anyone who really wants a dog but cant find one will snap them up. as for if the vic govt get their planned changes though that will be sooner than you can possibly imagine I hope that isn't the case but if it did as you said would be good for the Greys maybe they're not everyone's cup of tea. There won't be any greys. Will that make you finally happy? If there is no dog breeding at all? Cos that's what's happening in Victoria right now. I have no time for people who cannot see past their own nose. Huh?? Are you talking to me? If so can you please elaborate as I don't understand what you are getting at. This is a thread on racing Greys and the demise of an industry not breeding dogs in general.

with a bit of luck by the time it happens there will be so few dogs and puppies of any breed available anyone who really wants a dog but cant find one will snap them up. as for if the vic govt get their planned changes though that will be sooner than you can possibly imagine I hope that isn't the case but if it did as you said would be good for the Greys maybe they're not everyone's cup of tea. have you read the transcripts on the other thread? some realise people will not be able to source what they want in the near future, even the AVA letter stated that many people will chose to go without rather than accept a breed they do not want, ditto for those who do not want a rescue. Personally I like greys, ultimate lounge lizard and so regal to boot Skimmed so I probably have missed a lot. I call them my retirement dogs as they are so easy to live with and own.

with a bit of luck by the time it happens there will be so few dogs and puppies of any breed available anyone who really wants a dog but cant find one will snap them up. as for if the vic govt get their planned changes though that will be sooner than you can possibly imagine I hope that isn't the case but if it did as you said would be good for the Greys maybe they're not everyone's cup of tea.

Utilising GAP would be great but GAP to my knowledge is an incentive of and funded by the industry, close the industry no more GAP. This is why I would have liked to have seen a bond ( GBOTA suggested $1500, unfortunately this was one of the proposed reforms taken off the table) put on each greyhound when it was 2 weeks old, that would enable it be funded after retirement, another benefit would have been less pups bred due to the added cost of getting them registered $9000 for a litter of 6 pups on top of the 1000's it costs already. I don't see why taxpayers and other good people should be the only contributors to cleaning up their wastage. It would be the breeders choice to absorb that cost or past it on to the potential owners.

Ok we have differing opinions on many issues to do with this industry but I'm guessing none of us want to see a large amount of dogs die. As it is at the moment the industry has been given a reprieve but as WM says it probably will happen again, what measures do you (anybody) think could be put in place now, to enable 1000's of dogs to be saved if/when it does happen? I've mentioned my ideas what feels like a thousand times so I won't bore you again but I'm very interested in ideas others may have.

Maddy if you are so sure that some know that some others are drowning puppies ,how do you think they know this and how many breeders that you know drown puppies have you reported? You cant just rock up and say I think they are routinely drowning puppies and its not something that a breeder brags about. You can say that s not that sire and its easily proven via DNA so if you know its happened then have you reported it ?.How do you know someone else is aware of it or that its not just gossip? If you know these things and dont report them then why are you less guilty of someone else who you think may know something .Why would a greyhound breeder drown puppies? I imagine this would be highly unlikely for 2 reasons that I can think of, the first being they cost too much to get on the ground, they would rather sell and recoup some of their costs than waste money and the second they wouldn't risk drowning a good dog. Yep. I don't think she's talking about greyhound puppies, I think she's using an example of if ANKC breeders did something dodgy :/ Well that's how I read it. True, I thought it was being used as an analogy, sorry Maddie my misunderstanding, if that is the case.

Maddy if you are so sure that some know that some others are drowning puppies ,how do you think they know this and how many breeders that you know drown puppies have you reported? You cant just rock up and say I think they are routinely drowning puppies and its not something that a breeder brags about. You can say that s not that sire and its easily proven via DNA so if you know its happened then have you reported it ?.How do you know someone else is aware of it or that its not just gossip? If you know these things and dont report them then why are you less guilty of someone else who you think may know something .Why would a greyhound breeder drown puppies? I imagine this would be highly unlikely for 2 reasons that I can think of, the first being they cost too much to get on the ground, they would rather sell and recoup some of their costs than waste money and the second they wouldn't risk drowning a good dog.

Sorry I should have said I wasn't referring to the comments on social media, but to emails I have received regarding the strategies that were/had been used in the 'fight' to oppose the ban. Most of the time when I mentioned the changes in this thread regarding the 50%reduction of dogs being bred, the rules regarding the transparency regarding the fate of the dogs was being used as an example of the fact that the industry could change, but as WM says achieving this in only 12 mths is not fast enough for the general public. The reforms I mentioned that had been taken off the table were only proposed reforms not actual reforms, pity they weren't made to uphold them before Baird changed his mind. I do understand this and while I also have had similar experiences to those that you have mentioned I also have friends at this moment who have as many dogs in their kennels waiting to go into GAP as you mentioned that you have rescued in 10 yrs. Some of them have been there over 12 mths and the 4 they have kept pets, I have shared a couch with and they have done this for many years, it's these people who have a passion for their hobby but above all a love of dogs that I feel for and my friends aren't the only ones that I know of. The purebred breeders are feeling annoyed that the powers that be feel they need to pay for their hobby, this is how my friends feel plus the whole country believes just because they have a hobby that's been ruined, they are scumbags like the participants that everyone hears about and have judged them without knowing them. Ultimately, remaining silent is condoning the behaviour of those doing the wrong thing. If enough of the good trainers were willing to come forward, name names, be honest about what goes on, maybe the scum could be cleaned away and things could change. But they don't. In doing nothing, they've made a choice. Back when I was stuck running GAP down here (a short, horrible period that I'd rather forget), I was made to sign an agreement stating that I would never say anything to anyone that would bring the sport into disrepute. This included speaking to the media (besides statements approved by them), it also included not reporting things I'd seen to the RSPCA. A similar clause exists under GAR. A rule that basically prohibits anyone from speaking out if it might damage the image of the sport. A lot of the AR nuts like to grasp at some of the much less common issues while right there, in front of their noses, is the industry enforcing corruption and a culture of secrecy, in a way that can be proven without any effort at all. Go figure. It falls on deaf ears what is the point! Just like you they and others have been held to ransom. As I have said if there was legislation more places to complain to.

Sorry I should have said I wasn't referring to the comments on social media, but to emails I have received regarding the strategies that were/had been used in the 'fight' to oppose the ban. Most of the time when I mentioned the changes in this thread regarding the 50%reduction of dogs being bred, the rules regarding the transparency regarding the fate of the dogs was being used as an example of the fact that the industry could change, but as WM says achieving this in only 12 mths is not fast enough for the general public. The reforms I mentioned that had been taken off the table were only proposed reforms not actual reforms, pity they weren't made to uphold them before Baird changed his mind. I do understand this and while I also have had similar experiences to those that you have mentioned I also have friends at this moment who have as many dogs in their kennels waiting to go into GAP as you mentioned that you have rescued in 10 yrs. Some of them have been there over 12 mths and the 4 they have kept pets, I have shared a couch with and they have done this for many years, it's these people who have a passion for their hobby but above all a love of dogs that I feel for and my friends aren't the only ones that I know of. The purebred breeders are feeling annoyed that the powers that be feel they need to pay for their hobby, this is how my friends feel plus the whole country believes just because they have a hobby that's been ruined, they are scumbags like the participants that everyone hears about and have judged them without knowing them.

No they weren't, the emphasis was on livelihoods and the misinformation in the inquiry, the reforms that have been implemented were only a very small part of it. I do know what you are saying is true re whistleblowers that is why if the law outside the industry was on their side they would have had more power to be listened to as I said before. I know you have had dealings with scum just as I have but they are not the only ones in this industry but they are the only ones that are worth giving anecdotal credence to as the good stuff is uninteresting.

Not really but I was hoping. legislation is harder to get around and gives people who complain more power and more places to go to when they do complain. I don't think reforms, research, reviews and smoke and mirrors is what won the day for the industry, these were all present when Baird decided to ban racing, people power is what did it for them, the squeaky wheel etc they were very proactive. If those outside the industry with knowledge on the rot in the industry had stopped sitting on their hands and spoken up and they be the squeaky wheel, they may have been able to keep Baird from changing his mind.

So are you saying that the short sharp version closed the organisations down completely or they went OS, or was it that the participants just had to change their culture, no compromises, so the industry could survive? The latter m-j usually - it usually involves rapid down-sizing and sophisticated management of change and people - and that so ain't going to happen here. Management by attrition usually takes a long time, and while it works in some situations I doubt it will work here given the public and political pressure. So yes - I have seen absolutely nothing here to suggest that genuine sustainainble change will happen so this industry will survive in a form that is acceptable to the general public. In fact this decision has probably ensured the slow 'death by a thousand cuts' for this industry, unless it happens again. And yes I'm certain it will all happen again and next time it will be a brutal shutdown. Look the truth is that the days of using animals for gambling and entertainment are severely numbered - its only a matter of time given its a toxic mix that brings out the worst in human beings. So this industry can evolve to shutdown under its own control or have it done to it eventually. They can take their pick which route they take - but they are going to end up in the same place. Bookmark it. Thank you for your reply. As I have said before you are probably right except it will be a pity for the good folk in the industry and they do exist and they have complained but it has fallen on deaf ears. The entertainment and gambling factor of the industry are not to blame for this it is the "win at all cost" mentality. Unfortunately it isn't only in the greyhounds it is across the board in all sports, it is why human athletes get drug tested and are being found positive. Gone are the days when sport was just that sport, now it is business, pity. One example of this is country football/cricket they are paying players from other places to play for them so now the kids that don't make the grade instead of being at the footy or the cricket on Saturday they are entertaining themselves in other ways and not all of them are wholesome. Generally m-j I think we are in agreement - I just don't believe so much in 'the good people' - not one public whistle blower I'm aware of in all the years of greyhound racing? But anyway, yes it is a pity that what might have been a good clean fun hobby has now become 'business' - and when it involves animals you can absolutely bet that greed will overrule any sense of animal welfare and decrease our collective humanity. I think this is why I'm so angry with this industry - as it not only reflects on them, it reflects on all of us. And I wonder if the huge outcry over greyhounds is because they are closer to us than, say horses. The are a companion animal species who live in our homes - and while some people have horses as well most of us don't. So it hits hard. And yes absolutely agree - the moment sport becomes 'business' it moves to a different plane. I'm a great AFL supporter - and sooooo angry with Essendon for the disrepute that they have brought to the game through their 'whatever it takes' 'supplements' program. They are a case study for everything m_j talks about. I've seriously considered going back to supporting grass roots footie through the SANFL - and I might still. And no I won't be watching or betting on 'the race that stops the nation' either. They are out there :) the vet that went onto the ABC show (there is a link at the beginning of this thread) is one example and look what it achieved, nothing. There are many people out there that could tell stories and some have but it got them nowhere. It seems that a certain few of the industry appear to have it sown up so this is why I was hoping legislation would sort it out. I'm not going to hold my breath though the GBOTA put reforms on the table I'm guessing to enhance their chance of keeping the industry and some of those reforms got taken off 3-4 days after the ban was lifted, which really peeved me, same ..... different day. I just hope when the next push to close it comes there will be more thought put into what is going to happen to the dogs.

So are you saying that the short sharp version closed the organisations down completely or they went OS, or was it that the participants just had to change their culture, no compromises, so the industry could survive? The latter m-j usually - it usually involves rapid down-sizing and sophisticated management of change and people - and that so ain't going to happen here. Management by attrition usually takes a long time, and while it works in some situations I doubt it will work here given the public and political pressure. So yes - I have seen absolutely nothing here to suggest that genuine sustainainble change will happen so this industry will survive in a form that is acceptable to the general public. In fact this decision has probably ensured the slow 'death by a thousand cuts' for this industry, unless it happens again. And yes I'm certain it will all happen again and next time it will be a brutal shutdown. Look the truth is that the days of using animals for gambling and entertainment are severely numbered - its only a matter of time given its a toxic mix that brings out the worst in human beings. So this industry can evolve to shutdown under its own control or have it done to it eventually. They can take their pick which route they take - but they are going to end up in the same place. Bookmark it. Thank you for your reply. As I have said before you are probably right except it will be a pity for the good folk in the industry and they do exist and they have complained but it has fallen on deaf ears. The entertainment and gambling factor of the industry are not to blame for this it is the "win at all cost" mentality. Unfortunately it isn't only in the greyhounds it is across the board in all sports, it is why human athletes get drug tested and are being found positive. Gone are the days when sport was just that sport, now it is business, pity. One example of this is country football/cricket they are paying players from other places to play for them so now the kids that don't make the grade instead of being at the footy or the cricket on Saturday they are entertaining themselves in other ways and not all of them are wholesome.

That's very hard to do when there is a video of every race in the country, that can be accessed on several websites and you can also access the archives of races, not sure how far back but I've looked at races that have been over 12 mths old.