m-j

Hi All

Thanks for your replies.

Jesomil:

Are you herding with that little pup you had at the K9 workshop at LL's place? Congrats to you for being so dedicated to your sport ie travelling. Jade and I go to Melbourne 4 hrs if we don't get lost , but we are also very lucky our trainer (sardog) does come up to us also, in fact she and her hubby have come to us more than the other way around so far, for which I'm eternally grateful.

Allerzeit:

Same congrats to you. How is the beautiful Enya? Deb Kelly, does she have Blue Moon BC's or something like that?

Trisven 13:

No worries, it looks like it might rain anyway. I hope your daughters new baby settles in well, looking forward to seeing her one day.

Silvertravis:

Yes when I asked if my friend might be interested, she just looked at me and said "and when am I supposed to fit that in" :p I can appreciate it would take a lot of time. Do you trial at Henty field days? I go every year and usually sit there for about 6 hours or so watching. I totally admire the guts of those dogs, even after they get knocked around by the sheep who are alot heavier and stronger than themselves they just dust themselves off (so to speak) and keep going.

Perrys mum:

Thank you that would be great if you could find out for me, Wagga is close.

cheers

M-J

Thanks Silvertravis. I will pass this info on. I find it ironic that people in the city have easier access to this type of training than people who live in the country. I have quite a few friends who have working dogs but they don't give lessons:( Pity cos one friend in particular has wonderful working dogs and all her dogs have been good, so to me that is saying something about her skill.

cheers

M-J

Hi

I have a friend who is interested in teaching her kelpiexBC to herd when she is old enough. Could someone please tell me where the closest place to Albury is to teach her these skills and contact details of the trainer?

TIA

cheers

M-J

I believe this can play a huge part in a dogs ability to learn or not learn, he spent the first 5 yrs (that is probably nearly half of his life) teaching himself what he felt he needed to know, probably with very little structured human intervention, you would imagine it would have to impact on his way of learning to some degree . Plus if a dog is overstimulated by the motivator they can try too hard and not get it.

- perhaps we need our own thread about cats!

Sounds like you taught it differently? I can't quite picture what you describe above

No the same way just my lousy explanation ;) While charging the marker when giving the cat the reward I held it with the tip of my fingers and suffered bitten fingers or once they had bitten the finger a couple of times they would sniff all around my fingers trying to locate the treat because the scent of the liver was also on the lower part of my fingers from picking up the treat out of my bag. Once they realised the treat was actually coming from the tip of my fingers it was plain sailing. Maybe I just need bigger treats so they can see them:) Dogs don't seem to have the same problem.

cheers

M-J

Personally I don't have a set "rule" on how close the reps are. Much depends on the dog in question and its emotions at the time as to whether it needs tiny, small. medium or large breaks inbetween. Don't know what anyone else thinks on this.

Hi Erny ;) Definately you need to think about what you are working with imho if you don't you are making a rod for your own back but with your average dog if you only do one trial a day it would take even the smartest of dogs and trainers longer than 3-5 days to learn to sit imho

Sometimes this is too hard for novice dog handlers to do though,

;) not only novices *whistle whistle*

Even my cats picked up nose targetting way faster than my dog did!)

Don't despair dogs aren't actually that fond of doing proper nose targets, they quite often will place their muzzle (close to the nose) on the target especially when going for duration. This was told to me by a very experienced trainer of many different types of animals and is what I have found. Other animals I have done nose targets with I found much easier.

Did you find that you needed to show your cat where the treat was actually coming from ie between your fingers as they don't seem to be able to pinpoint where the scent is coming from as well as a dog can. I found my successive cats were much quicker as I taught the cat where the food was coming from initially before conditioning the marker, so that they could recieve the reward quicker.

cheers

M-J

Hi

In addition to all the above suggested, how close together the reps are and if using treats what the dog is actually doing when the treat is being put in the dogs mouth, even with using a marker and the dog is marker savvy. How many successive approximations go into teaching the behaviour.

cheers

M-J

Hi

I have also used car/truck tyres laid flat on the ground spaced evenly at first, then I spread them out unevenly, then I rest them on their side on each other, initially the tyres are close so that it is easier for the dog then I spread them out. This worked well for my Dobe who I'm sure was totally unaware he had a back end. Another suggestion is walking along a plank that is raised a foot or so off the ground with different articles of varying heights and distances apart so the dog has to negotiate them. Morgan Spector (Ckicker Training for Obedience) also suggests a body wrap, I have never tried it so have no idea how good this is.

hth

cheers

M-J

If you are interested in spreading tyres around in your back yard I will try to con OH into taking a photo this evening so you can see what I mean, as my expanation isn't very clear

i hope you're not trying to draw a parallel between a horse being 'positively trained' and a dog? Horses are prey animals, dogs are predators.

I'm sorry I have to disagree. I believe you can, any animal can be taught to do any behaviour through positive motivation, as long as they are physically capable, and the trainer can work out how to achieve it. I have seen video footage of a horse being taught to trot on the spot (sorry don't know what it is called) through targeting, obviously only a snippet but the trainer said at no time during teaching this, was the horse restrained or any pressure applied, except to go onto an further increment, another galloping to catch a thrown frisbee and return it to it's trainer, again through targeting.

I have taught goats to do numerous things through targeting and shaping and luring. things that would have taken a lot of time, energy and maybe I wouldn't have achieved them at all if I applied pressure. I have seen another trainer get a goat to put it's front feet onto a skateboard and start pushing it in about 5 mins. These prey animals were taught using exactly the same methods, I use on my dogs and cats. The only difference was the motivator.

cheers

M-J

Also why on earth would you want a dog anticipating correction all the time - wouldnt it be counterproductive?

What Erny said:))

I was talking about stopping one behaviour, where the consequences of doing that behaviour is a bad thing for the dog ie if my dogs chase sheep the farmers going to dish out a far worse adversive than what ever I can . You bet ya I want that dog to think if I chase those sheep I will get nailed:)) If they don't the consequences could be fatal or they spend the rest of their life on lead, the only dog I have had to do this to thought his throat had been cut as he had spent years walking around here off lead.

And even if you were Marion Jones that would mean about 6 seconds later.

Thats why you use a conditioned reinforcer the message is fairly clear immediately (as long as your timing is good) even if you take 6 sec to deliver whatever you have promised the dog.

cheers

M-J

But corrections arent about the dog anticipating them.... a good correction is all about surprise.

The dog needs to remember them so that he can avoid doing the behaviour that bought the correction in the first place or he isn't going to stop doing that behaviour.

cheers

M-J

I would say for my dogs it's not a threat of an adversive, it's a promise.

Ok anticipation, but really the dog feels the way it feels about complience to the command, regardless of whether we call it a threat, a promise or anticipation.

consistancy is the key to achieving a consistantly obediant dog.

I agree I think it is a dog trainers greatest asset,

cheers

M-J

Ill put it in human terms for you.

You drive a car and you go over a speed limit, you might get a fun adrenaline rush (drive satisfaction)

Than you one day get your photo taken and get fined.

Will you be slowing down next time you see a 24 hour speed camera?

You still get to your destination, safe.

I believe that would depend on what type of person you are.

If you are a fast car enthusiast, but on a low income, you probably wouldn't enjoy driving quite as much as you know that drive (scuse the pun ) satisfaction comes with a price. If you are well off and don't really need your license, the threat of this wouldn't be an issue and you will continue to speed to gain drive satisfaction, repeat offender. I think the tech term would be preparedness.

If someone was to offer that car enthusiast an opportunity to join a racing team and race a car if they didn't speed, they would probably slow down on the road for the opportunity to obtain drive peak, relatively hassle free.

Just some thoughts on getting a reliable recall or any behaviour under distraction, I prefer to use positives through proofing, by setting the dog up to succeed at each stage, if possible, but will use adversives or managemant, pending on the reason for the dog doing the behaviour I wanted to stop. I don't think the threat of an adversive is fool proof, in some countries they kill people for certain crimes (the ultimate adversive) but it still doesn't stop people from committing crimes that will enable this to happen to them. I'm not saying that positives will, but I don't believe either one or the other will stop anything and everything for all members of either species.

As someone said I would prefer to exhaust all positive avenues before turning to an adversive, for any preventative training. I also believe no training is permanent with a highly driven dog. Once you have achieved your goal, with any type of training that is counteracting a natural high drive that has been reinforced in the past, you will need to apply your motivator (adversive or positive) and/or a conditioned reinforcer again after X amount of time, if it is exposed to the trigger on a regular basis.

cheers

M-J

just gently guide the dog physically into the correct position using lots of praise. I cant see merrit in continually verbally correcting or warning during a retreiving trial as in that thread. To me its training the dog to not bother remembering.

Plus it isn't good for muscle memory. If you get it right initially, the dog will adjust itself if it happens to get into in the wrong position.

cheers

M-J

I personally believe that each situation must be dealt with differently (with an individual program that will often change, particularly as you progress through the fear). I feel that if the dog can take an active role (operant conditioning) then you are likely to get a stronger result, because the dog has "chosen" to make that positive response . There are however the potential draw backs as mentioned which can make it harder to work the problem and have the owners work the problem - eg masking the problem.

Hi Tim

I agree, as basically every dog handler team is an indivual team, with many variables that go into making up that team, as well as there being different reasons for the fear and degrees of fear.

cheers

M-J

Aghh you know what they say there is only one thing two trainers will agree on that is that the third trainer isn't doing it right.

cheers

M-J

I beg to differ on this quote Steve..... just ask Andrew

That is what I thought

K9: rofl.. I suppose there are perfect cars too, other than the GT?

Apparently not. Jade and I are learning these things, as well as the SAR stuff.

cheers

M-J

bloody Koehler, that method was around in the 60's and is not very successful, great way to fast track a relationship breakdown. Which will in turn will probably create another stress related problem, *sigh*

It is a pity that with all the info avaliable they chose that method, *shudder*

cheers

M-J

Hi

I woulds be interested in coming to this if the date/ time allows, sounds like it could be fun.

cheers

M-J

ETA I'm having a senior moment. I though I was replying to the who would be intersted in attending thread, not the who would like to do thread.

I dont remove the reward at all? I said move the ball higher, not get intermitant with the reward.

Ok now I get what you are saying.

I like to use a saying, make it the dogs problem & it will solve it.

I would have put this Lab into high food drive, then make it the dogs problems to get the food, I would help by offering a hint (command).

That was the problem she was thinking too much, at a million miles an hour, I needed her to be calm, she was learning a new training concept as well as a new behaviour. She was in too much of a frenzy to think clearly and take the hint, as she had no idea what I wanted. She had been taught that the food didn't need to be present to get the reward/drive satisfaction as it would come eventually, from somewhere, so I had to feed her before training also to reduce her drive. When I reduced her motivation she became calmer and learnt MUCH quicker, not saying this was always the case, when teaching her something but for this "trick" and concept to be grasped she showed me that what I did, was the way to go with this dog.

The other dogs I did this with it wasn't an issue as they didn't have her drive.

cheers

M-J

K9: yes this is correct, but the dog in question doesnt know how to add the sit from a fast recall so it needs to learn this, starting an intermitant reward system when learning a new excercise is not going to the best way to maintain drive...

Yes I agree I teach the 2 things, 3 things if you include the finish, initially as seperate exercises, then put them together, until the sequence of ewvents has been put together and the dog is familiar with the sequence I don't go on a VSR (variable schedule of reinforcement), I believe you need to build a reinforcement history for the behaviour/s before starting a VSR.

So when you mentioned removing motivation that threw me as I think even if the dog is not being rewarded for the behaviours he still is being motivated by the cues, unless being given cues he has no prey drive reinforcement/satisfaction history for, ie your at home/english cues. So I'm still confused.

I did think that maybe you were saying that to get the dog to be clear headed enough to think and learn you needed to remove the motivator. I had a very high food drive Lab that when I wanted to teach her something I would feed her before training and use low powered rewards as she was so keen to get drive satisfaction. 1/2 her brain went taa taa when hungry and if I was using high powered rewards, great for getting duration on known behaviours tho or to go onto a VSR.

( It's ok that you are probably going this woman is thick, my hubby would agree with you :D )

K9: ok, I use two separate commands for everything, in english the commands equal opportnity to earn a pack drive reward (pat or praise from Alpha).

In German they are an opportunity to earn a prey drive reward.

I dont use those when I am unable to give that reward.

Is that what you mean?

yep.

cheers

M-J

K9: not exactly sure what you mean, can you rephrase please?

Ummm it is so hard to explain things my understanding is........when a dog has learnt a behaviour through drive satisfaction, asking for the behaviour can trigger drive and if the dog gets asked for behaviours that it has a reinforcement history for, but doesn't actually get rewarded for at that moment, it will keep working in the hope that reward will come and become keener but if you go on too long the dog will start to loose drive.

K9: to keep drive you must remove motivation by asking for excercises that dont bring reward.

What I am having trouble with is I don't understand how you can keep drive if the behaviours the dog is doing aren't associated with drive training. an example of what I'm trying to say is your drive training cues and around the home cues (for want of better terminology). If you gave 5 around the home cues I don't understand how that would put your dogs into drive, let alone keep it. Or have I completely missed the point??

cheers

M-J

K9: to keep drive you must remove motivation by asking for excercises that dont bring reward.

When you say ask for exercises that don't bring reward, is that only at that moment but are exercises that in the past have brought a reward?

cheers

M-J

All my dogs drool before being sent to retrieve. The longer I keep them by my side, after voice and body cueing, the LONGER the drool. Yuck. Yuck. Yuck.

Welllll I suppose that's what you get for controlling your dogs fun and good times.

cheers

M-J

thanks, now you've got me thinking about stuff like that ).

Yes I like to have some sort of long term plan in place when I start so that I don't have so many mistakes to fix as I go

cheers

M-J

Im using a twirling finger in front of his face as a signal, but should I use roll over as the command or is that too long?

No it isn't too long but I would also watch your body language at a guess you are bending over to give both cues or you move your hand down before you twirl your finger I'm assuming he is seeing a similarity in your body language at the start of the cue, it is a good idea to video yourself to see what the dog is watching it is much easier to watch a video than work it out while you are working the dog.

Another thing about the roll over cue If you plan on trialling him??? you will probably use the word "over" during some part of your training, open and UD, so maybe just "roll" if this is the case.

hth

cheers

M-J