m-j
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Posts posted by m-j
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take him every time I go and crate him for the two-three hours.
Crating is a good idea initially, I would still test him work wise after you have got him used to being around other dogs, if the dog hasn't experienced working in that type of environment it can be very distracting and in the trial ring the work standard generally diminishes compared to training. Having said this I have't seen him work so I could be wrong.
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M-J
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Another thing to bear in mind re "getting in your dog's face" is proofing stays. You can't pick what dog you line up next to, so as much as you might like to put your dog next to a sensible older bitch with good manners, he may have to hold a stay near a young entire male Dobe projecting "I am GOD!" at him.
Dobes don't that! Nice gentle souls they are at all times ;) at least mine was with us, not so keen on other people and dogs. Yes that can be one of the downfalls of trialling, badly thrown dumbells coming into your ring, followed by an enthusiastic dog right in your path when doing a heeling pattern.
I haven't worked with him in a multi dog environment though so I might have to take him along to the obedience club and see how he goes there.I'm guessing you will probably see a huge difference in him. Going to an obedience club just to get him used to working around other dogs a few times is a good idea, as long as he doesn't have any bad experiences with other dogs, something you will have to watch out for without stressing about it.
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M-J
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We didn't train her in the few commands she knows. She is very biddable under normal circumstances so I'd love to know how to help her control her excitement. She misses out on so much because of her 'over the top' attitude. My sister is not very experienced with dogs so she really has no clue how to deal with this behaviour.
If you let me know where you are I may be able to suggest someone who can help you, if you like even though she isn't your dog. At least she likes you
pity her joy of seeing you/being left out of activities is so noisy.cheers
M-J
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Did you do the training for the known commands? It also sounds like you don't actually have her much of the time? Based on the very little info (not having seen the dog) it sounds like she loves visiting, at an uneducated guess :rolleyes:
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M-J
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Hi
What have you tried?
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M-J
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I don't think I'm very popular on this board
I know you are not the first to think this but it makes for interesting disscussions, having other perspectives thrown in to the mix. If we all agreed it would make things rather boring and I must admit having a different perspective thrown at me about a comment I have made gives me something to think about when picking up dog poo from many dogs at work
and leaves me trying to convince people that I'm not a complete loony who thinks animals are people. Trust me, I don't!No they don't have internet hierarchies
sorry just my pathetic sense of humour cheers
M-J
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quite distinct from a dominant dog, which is dominant in nature, independent of pack or no pack theory.
I do agree with what you are saying but.....
is what engenders the (hilarious) idea that dominance aggression = anxiety.Just some thoughts on this type of aggression. I am a big believer if a dog like you have described is aggressing it is certainly anxious, concerned, not scared as such, but if a dog like this has to aggress doesn't it feel it's authority is being undermined so therefore feels anxious enough to rectify the situation? If it wasn't even mildly anxious, wouldn't it basically do the doggie equivilent of "whatever" and do nothing? Hasn't the body's homoeostasis or whatever it is called (where all in the body's chemicals etc are in their default status), been disrupted? Hope this makes sense
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M-J
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Irrelevance? (to the cat)
Cat's aren't as social as dogs. It's difficult to categorise their relationship with us as much more than opportunistic IMO
Yes that is a much better word. I was just mucking around when I said arrogance hence the laughing icon. I know next to nothing about cats so really have no idea what they are thinking and my cat always comes as he knows he is going to get fed or get a pat he likes both.
I don't get you. Use a specific example. Dogs don't know something will hurt unless it has hurt them in the past.Ok say you have taught your dog a straight recall by adding a mild adversive when the dog doesn't come straight to you. You want your dog to recall straight to you over some bindies and the dog knows they are there (found that out by going to where the dog is at the time so is reluctant to experience them again) so therefore doesn't come straight to you, arcs around the bindies (takes the risk of experiencing the mild adversive). I'm inclined to think the dog is opting for the lesser of the two evils, not being dominant.
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M-J
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Quickie....when you call your cat and it ignores you, is that dominance?
Arrogance??
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Dog knows what I expect, dog chooses to ignore me. Dog is being dominant.
So if a cue you have given the dog will cause it more pain than you have used to correct your dog with in the past, the dog is being defiant therefore dominant in your mind, not avoiding an unpleasant experience and opting for the lesser of the two evils in the dog's mind?
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M-J
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Is a dog that isn't listening to you a dominant dog, or displaying dominant behaviour?
Personally I don't think so, it isn't in a dogs "makeup" to take orders, just not to do things ie dogs don't tell other dogs to do things, just not to do them. So I going to feel justified in using a human example of children who don't listen are they being dominant/defiant I don't think so. If they are being defiant they listen and then tell you to put your order where the sun don't shine. Dogs may disobey a cue (that they generally respond to well) simply because it has worked for them before because as an owner we haven't been consistant and what they want to do at that particular moment is just a heck of a lot more interesting.
Lack of training, lack of bonding, miscommunication, lack of undertanding are probably issues that need to be weeded out before the "dominance" word gets tossed around but in the end I'd call any that dog succeeds in routinely manipulating its owners to get what it wants (regardless of method) as "dominant".I agree except with the bold writing, I would call it clever and an opportunist
Just thoughts
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M-J
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I can't find my bird book to check, but it's about 5 years old and lists Yellows as a race of the Crimson, if I remember correctly. And most white-cheeked rosellas, which the Eastern is, are now considered races as well I think. I could be wrong, though.
I have no idea about what is and isn't considered a race (my bird book is much older than yours and like yours is buried somewhere
), but their behaviour is very similar, compared to other genus with the exception of 28's Port Lincoln and Mallee's they are similar in behaviour as well as body shape, very different calls though. Even though the Rosella's calls are similar they aren't exactly the same I liken it to different dialects in humans ie the Yogoslaves where you have Croatians, Slovenians etcI have seen firsthand a classic example of wolf behaviour a number of times in domestic dogs.I have loose dogs from around town, form a pack and away they go hunting.Yep many pet dogs have been shot that way
People not believeing their Fifi would dream of chasing sheep or not my dog he has been around sheep and I've never seen him chase them. Being in an uncontrolled pack can certainly change them.cheers
M-J
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Even though you are in the ring or 2-3 mins of heeling train to get 10 mins good heeling, same with stays before you enter your dog in a trial.
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M-J
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Thanks.
There have been some surprising hybrid birds found in the wild and rarely does anyone know if the hybrids are fertile.I was given a Eastern x Crimson rosella hen that had young to a Yellow. I didn't want to beed them, as at the time I was breeding parrots and more interested in keeping the species pure. I only had them together as I was told that she wouldn't be fertile, as she had had eggs but no young, also I didn't really know what sex the yellow was either. I hand reared the young and sold them as pets which wasn't hard as they were very pretty, but a real heinz variety.
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M-J
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Not entirely sure what he would do.
That can change each time too just depending on why he does/did the run past
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M-J
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It's a long time since dogs and wolves became separate species.
One thing I am wondering what determines a separate species? Dogs and wolves have same amount of chromosomes so therefore can reproduce fertile offspring.
This is really interesting thread
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M-J
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When I work I do 12 hour nights
They do look as if they are being very good, well done, anyone who works 12 hr shifts deserves congratulations for bothering to train their dogs no matter what results they are getting.
Just out of curiosity would Gizmo turn and come after you if you ran (not walked) in the opposite direction when he ran past you? Some dogs don't.
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M-J
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I think that the way we bring dogs together is different to the way wolves are brought together, and that our selection for particular traits in different breeds of dogs also influences the way they act towards each other. Selecting for certain prey drive attributes (or not selecting for them), 'gameness' in some breeds, and some breeds requiring more personal space than others all makes how they relate to other dogs different to wolves.
To add to what your saying Kavik, maybe this happens in domestic packs also due to the fact they haven't had enough parental supervision/learning and have to sort it out themselves the best way they can?? In the wild I'm assuming that wasting energy through fighting and eliminating each other is also not good for survival as I imagine when say, hunting, where you would increase your chances of obtaining a kill through stategies (placement of pack members). I was watching a doco on a pack of African Wild dogs where they filmed several hunts in an areoplane and it showed the dogs communicating and using strategies during the hunt. I'm imagining wolves could do this also??
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M-J
I'm imagining wolves could do this also??African Hunting Dogs wow me in a big time. 95% success rate in hunting!!
Well maybe not after reading this
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He emphasises that in order to be acknowledged by the dogs as the boss (alpha, leader) you have to be in front, even when simply walking through a doorway. However, I'm not so sure about this. Here is why:
Not according the dogs at work. These dogs live in packs (7 packs) until about 10-12 mths with minimal human interference/training. The more submissive dogs are usually away from the alpha dogs the majority of the time, which to me makes sense as if they break a rule they are not conveniently right there to "tell off". Most don't care less who goes through the narrow opening from the large "paddock" to the kennel yards even at feeding time, but they don't go near the bowls, until the alpha has had his fill unless I am there to stop the alpha from being greedy. Having said that about doorways narrow openings my Karabash had a real issue about being passed in doorways and passageways but that could have been conditioning from her previous owners, don't know?? A friend of mine went somewhere in America and studied a semi domesticated wolf pack and she was telling us that the pack was moving around there "paddock" and there was a narrow opening created by by a dam coming close to a fenceline. When the pack came to the narrow opening the pack stopped moving except two in the middle of the pack they continued through the pack lead the way through the narrow opening then the pack followed, then some over took the alpha dog and bitch and they didn't give a toss.
I agree I'm not so sure being in front means you are alpha, is a dog thing, more a human thing I think, the doorway thing is at the discetion of the individual dog, just thoughts.
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M-J
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This is mostly about greyhounds, but I am interested in other dogs. This isn't about reducing drive, it only applies to those where chasing has ALWAYS been encouraged.
Greyhounds as with all dogs they have different levels of drive, plus some of these dogs just love running. These are the dogs that don't go through the hot wire or they are quite happy for others to have the toy. Dogs in races do have choices if they have experienced the downfalls of running ie other dog attacking them, hot wether etc if they know, yes they won't go there again, but sometimes the reward of doing the desirable behaviour outeighs the downfalls.
Dogs that "fight" will be banned to make it fair on the other dogs, as it is my understanding is that defense is the only thing that "cuts through" prey drive. It is survival if you (the dog) are chasing a rabbit and a tiger then starts chasing you it is probably a good idea to get out of there so you get to chase a rabbit another day.
Plus no drive satisfaction will also stop dogs from trying as prey drive is a fixed action pattern they feel compelled to complete the sequence, after many tries no completion, I suppose they figure why bother, but if the dog nearly catches it, the dog will try again. It has been discussed by a racing board somewhere (can't remember which state)to give the dogs drive satisfaction after going past the post ie letting them catch the lure, as trainers are finding after a while dogs can loose interest.
is there such a thing a a dog with negligable or no drive, if so what actually motivates it to do things in life??We have one dog at work that has no prey drive (that I can find, I will not go to live kills) , I believe he isn't going to make it as a race dog, not in this lifetime or the next, but will make a great pet, in the wild he might die unless he scavenges, I'm guessing. What would motivate this dog to do things, his other drives, when he came he hadn't been handled much and certainly wouldn't come to anyone, I utilised his food drive to get him to me, he ignored me waving the toy around, which is what I usually do.
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M-J
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PS I drive a car without power steering, I could say that all you people who have power steering can't really feel the car or the turns, so you are taking the "easy way out". No doubt I would be laughed at.
No I think you are right it is the easy way out. Is it bad? depends on your situation
personally I would say you are right into self punishment (remembering back to the days when I drove a one ton HQ ute and trying to get it into small parking space in supermarket car park and the 50 point turns just to get in and out of them)
. Having said that if you were looking forward to say a holiday and only had enough money for it, buying a new car with power steering, if the old car broke down, would not be a reward it would be percieved as punishment as you really wanted the holiday and you were happy to endure the lack of power steering for the reward of the holiday. Power steering is the easy way out for me a i don't want to go back to the "old way" but not for you as you don't give a rats about the steering on your car, you want that holiday. Dogs will also endure punishment for the chance of a reward or hoping they will secure the reward.
I don't think time is the indicator of stress, I think if you are attempting to change a behaviour in a certain situation the size and frequency of the extinction bursts are a better indicator of stress. When learning a new behaviour lumping instead of splitting can cause frustration as the dog just doesn't understand. They may fluke it, but I have a rule of thunb if the dog can do the behaviour in 9 different places consecutively under reasonable distraction they know it. Up until the point where they know the behaviour, I believe there is an element of stress just in varying degrees, pending on the situation at the time, because they aren't sure.
The unknown or not being sure can be scary. OH was telling me of an experiment (on some TV show) they told 6 people they were part of an experiment, they just didn't tell them what the experiment was. They took them into a room sat them down, stuck electrodes over them which were hooked up to a box and didn't say anything just kept looking at this box. What they were actually doing was monitoring their stress levels which were actually getting quite high simply because they didn't know what was happening or what to expect or relating past experiences ie seeing someone wherever being electrocuted (one person asked if that was what they were going to do). I think this is very applicable to dogs.
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M-J
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Using food or a toy has been described to me as the easy way out as has giving a correction.
Not sure if I have misunderstood but the dog is always working for a reward, to gain a treat or to avoid a correction which is rewarding. I'm interested in how else you can communicate to a dog what it is you want. To me this is what training is all about, communicating your desires to the dog, not sorting out leadership or anything else.
As Erny said why make life difficult for yourself and the dog.
Lets say i have a dog who loves food but i consider using food as a lure to be taking the easy way out so i teach another way using a pat to reward. A pat is not aversive but with this particular dog will take longer to teach the exercise- is the very fact that it takes longer aversive/ loading/ stressful to the dog? Does it mean the dog is confused for longer?I think so. Motivation is the key to learning (learning being the opperative word), my dogs and my Autistic son have taught me that (my son has taught a couple of his teachers that also). Find an interest and they work their brains very hard to gain the reward. If they don't gain the reward equivalent to effort they perceive to have put in, they will blow you off.
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M-J
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For the trainers- do you give a guarantee sight unseen that you can resolve a dogs behaviour problem? Why/ why not?
For the owners- do you expect a trainer to give you a guarantee regarding solving problems with your dog?
A few weeks ago i received quite an aggressive email, demanding that i provide a guarantee with regard to a serious behaviour problem. I don't give guarantees for the simple reason that i am not the only input into the dog so i can't guarantee what others (owners etc) will do. A plumber can provide a guarantee because 'most' people won't touch the plumbing after he's gone- i think dog training is different!
OMG some people!! of course not for the same reason as you. Dogs aren't an inanimate object like plumbing, they are a living breathing thing with problem solving abilities that are quite often are better than their owners
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M-J
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Hi
Thanks for your replies.
Yes 31 dogs is alot of dogs but they are at the kennels I work at, not mine. They are 10-12 mth old boarders but have been with us since about 3mths old (they aren't in the kennels from that age). We have tried blocking their view but they know what is going on
. I'm not real keen on punishment as you are killing the dogs drive as they know they are going out to do what they are bred to do, with young dogs this can be very detrimental to their training. I have seen this for myself.31 dogs dropping all at once, on a verbal cue would be kinda cool!!!!It would. But it would take a better trainer than me with the time limitations I have
my boss keeps me busy doing other things.cheers
M-J
Jackpots
in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports
Posted
I use treats in quick successesion to get duration on a stationary behaviour, in the learning stage. To me it is a way of saying to the dog yep that's what I want in the 1/2 second to 2 second time frame the dog has to form associations when learning. I then release. I use quantity in one hit, after using successive treats, to denote the complete exercise when teaching something in increments, again in the learning stage. With recall I give a succession of treats as I don't want the dog recieving a quantity of treats and then leaving or focusing on something else as I may need to do something else with the dog ie put it's lead on.
Yes I think the individual dog is important as well as the situation at the time.
I'm not sure if it does or doesn't but I do feel like the dog has got something back and does make me feel better
I belive that quality and quantity are both important to dogs I prefer to use quality to denote that doing the exercise/s is the most fun, not ending it. I use a couple of quanities of quality during training when the dog knows the exercises (after the treats are consumed they are asked to do something else), the release command denotes the end of training. I want the end of training to be percieved as boring to the dog. I suppose I want the dog to think that the training session is lifes "jackpot" just when it is coming and how the dog needs to listen and conform to find out.
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M-J