m-j

I would say it was more applicable to say use praise only when necessary, otherwise it could put you in the wimpy trainer category.

I have only used a verbal IB /KGS (Kaycee says there is a difference and I have seen explanations as to why but I wasn't clever enough to work it out) for getting duration on targets, but having said that I used it on my goat when teaching a stand for examination (which i taught with a duration target to my hand) to take my hand away and and let the goat know that he was still doing the right thing even though the training picture was changing. I have unwittingly taught my dogs a body language kgs when I was teaching trial ring heeling, I drop my body out of "trial ring" stance and they go ok work time is over. I believe you do need to establish a KGS/IB and I do it with a known behaviour (like a recall, as it has two components the coming to and arriving, that go hand in hand) for the dog to know what it means. Teaching a KGS and a behaviour at the same time is too hard for most animals, training two unknown things at once can become confusing as how does the animal differentiate between the two different requirements is the way I think about it, the lines are fuzzy so to speak. As others have said you can "fade" the IB/KGS through relying on the behaviour being classically conditioned and having the small breaks in between the sound which you gradually make longer. Variations of this training has been around for a long time as I mentioned in the other thread this is what we did with the horses over 30 yrs ago and as people have mentioned it has been used in training for many years, it's just that it didn't have a name, but terminology is very handy when teaching humans training concepts. cheers M-J .OOps sorry didn't realise you had replied already

Hi When your mum rewards is it after the dog has gone to the toilet? If so this could be part of the problem ie the dog has relieved itself or is in the process and is thinking about something else, (the enticing smell wafting in on the breeze as an example). I like to start making a sound/s (keep going signal, I use a continuous yeah yeah)when the dog is thinking about going and while going, that the dog knows will eventually lead to a reward (I use my bridge word before giving the treat). During a recall is a good way to establish the sound as the KGS. When I was riding trackwork we did this when teaching the horses to relieve themselves on cue. cheers M-J I just thought I would add this even though your mums dog sounds like she may be "getting it".

I like to teach my dogs/animals to do deal with things they don't like by setting them up so they don't throw a tantrum, sometimes that idea goes pear shaped on me (I see that as a failure by me as a trainer) and so the dog/animal doesn't learn that throwing a wobbly works, at that particular moment I need to adopt the attitude "get over it" it's going to happen anyway. Having said that there have been times where I have had to go and rethink my training strategy as the dog/animal was to big and dangerous when aggravated to restrain/correct. In regard to the dog not liking being told off and vocalising the only dog I have ever had of my own was one dog who would put in one quiet wuff when I told him to be quiet(during a volley of barking at another dog, person cat or whatever going past the property), he did that for 16yrs but in all other respects he was a very obedient dog, I initially worried but never succeeded in stopping that wuff (at the time I was an adversive trainer) after a while I got over it. As I have mentioned in the past a saying that a very knowledgeable trainer said to me we push our dogs around because we can not because we need to. The way I see it is the dogs don't ask us to own them, we make the decision to own them. Why should they be forced into calmly accepting horrible things happening to them (with the exception of procedures that are life saving at that moment) that are possibly seen by them as life threatening due to their lack of understanding? I don't see what is so bad about a process of gentle desensitisation. Are you saying that using force, aversives, telling the dog/animal to deal with it doesn't? This is not what I have found to be so, through my own and others experiences. I'm not saying it doesn't work, it does as many in this thread have mentioned it does and it has worked for me, and I do believe that using an adversive in a situation where the dog is a threat their or someone else's safety but sometimes I wonder what would happen if the animal had more "fight" in it as with your example of the dog growling over the food bin and the hit on the nose with a dust pan stopping it. A dust pan isn't much of a weapon really, it wouldn't inflict that much pain or discomfort. I have seen a dog working cattle that been ground into the ground get himself out of it and go back in harder. My brother in law's ACD when working cattle must have been tossed about 10 foot into the air when he landed he picked himself up and got straight back into the steer. I had a dog that got a leg broken in a fight when he next saw the dog he was actually keener to fight this particular dog and I could go on. Admittedly I have seen far more dogs when they have been hurt/shocked say "I'm not going there again" but as I have mentioned that always isn't the case. I would rather teach a dog to be desensitised nicely to an unpleasant experience as I have found they are generally (not always) more tolerant to other people/strangers doing the procedure than those who have only experienced a forced desensitisation process, particularly if that stranger/other person isn't physically or mentally as strong as the owner. JMHO cheers M-J

Hi I use both, the positive being a cue with a strong reinforcement history and the other being a sound that relies on the law of pitch. I have found with a negative interrupter is the dog will become accustomed to the sound and when something is very interesting or the dog is a distance away they tend to blow it off, unless they have learned there is a consequence for not stopping whatever they are doing. I use it very sparingly for this reason so it comes as a bit of a surprise to the dog and they realise I'm really not happy. I think that you really need to be comfortable with whatever you use, after all you have to be the one that is using it and you need to make it work, if your not happy with it you are less inclined to strive for this. cheers M-J

A greyhound trainer friend of mine says that you don't need to have the dog on the treadmill for as long as you do if you are walking your dog, to get the same level of fitness. cheers M-J

If the dog is taught positively and wants to do it I don't see the problem. I have seen a dog taught to walk a rope that was very keen to get up on the rope, higher off the ground than that. Five week old kittens that were taught to ride on a skateboard, they were a pain in the neck everytime I put the skateboard down as they wouldn't stay off it and an adult cat to be spun around and wheeled around on an office chair that was also keen to stay on it and cats DON'T like the ground moving under them normally. As others have said it is how the dog is taught to stay on the stackers that can be cruel not the equipment. That is cruel, poor dog, but not because of the equipment. cheers M-J

What makes a trick complex? cheers M-J

I haven't used an e-collar so know very little about the training using one but from the quickie explanation you (Erny) have written this is also my thought as the stim isn't something the dog wants happening, my understanding is that it is working to stop the stim in both methods . cheers M-J

You're right it will frustrate you, until the dog learns exactly what is required to get the food, and you learn how to harness her drive, then you won't look back. cheers M-J

I agree, just because they haven't done it the first or the hundredth meeting doesn't mean it won't happen, even with dogs that know each other, familiarity can breed contempt. With the aging thing is it they can't or just can't be bothered. I also work in the hospitality industry as a young person I would try to dissipate an altercation passively I know myself I'm a lot less tolerant than I used to be, not because I've lost an ability just can't be bothered now I have just about zero tolerance to idiots. cheers M-J

Some Autistic people I have known of do more than give a little smack. Your dog doesn't live with the disabled people. There is a big difference between being able to escape from the environment that is annoying you ie going home with you than having to live in it 24/7. cheers M-J

What a great way of putting it! cheers M-J

Hi Try the Delta Society website, they specialise in therapy dogs and human/dog relationships. If your children can have angry outbursts (not meaning to be offensive but do understand a little on these kids having an Aspie son myself) I personally don't think a Boerboel or a CAO would be the ideal breeds to live with, from what I have read about them, but I could be wrong. cheers M-J

Yes apparently. My son has this ability, has had from a very early age. My boss at the kennels is amazed at how he can pick what dogs will be like even though he hasn't handled them and how much they like him instantly. He actually isn't madly keen on them (not like us), he likes dogs/animals, but can take or leave them. Sometimes I think we make things hard for ourselves by nutting every little thing out but that's part of the fun of dog training. Just so my posts aren't completely off topic, I agree if we frighten our dog in some way in one situation if they can form some sort of an association with the previous fear to the new situation yes I believe they wil loose trust, ie fallout. This is the reason why I don't like puting pressure on my dogs as you say Corvus, dogs don't always show their fear/anxiety with big readily readable signals. I also agree dogs are very forgiving, my goats showed me that, even moreso than my cats. cheers M-J

I like most of what Temple Grandin has to say in the books I've read , she thinks outside the square. In my experience Autistic people do, not a bad thing at all imho. cheers M-J

You mentioned somewhere in a previous post he doesn't go into avoidance. I believe a dog has gone into avoidance by assuming a subordinate position, where the dog's pre-training normal response is rank aggression. Avoidance of your response to his aggression not the dog. I believe if the dog is truely calm (no calming signals etc) then the mindset to the dog has been changed. cheers M-J

Great I'll give you a ring. cheers M-J

So what do you do/ what does he do when there is no "Alpha aid" ie prong and lead on him when another dog approaches that isn't under control? I believe when using corrections to stop aggro you are stopping the visual behaviour but not the dogs mindset. I personally don't see that as problem solved jmo. cheers M-J

I was going to but when I eventually finished nattering you were gone. No I won't be going again as I work Tues nights "sigh" It actually inspired me to think about training Katie to trialling standard and then perhaps trial her several years from now We should do the occasional training session together it would really motivate me. cheers M-J

I saw you there last night I'm on holidays so I was down there finding the last few stewards for the trials. I didn't see you until after class and I was busy talking . I haven't been there for years (except at trials) and I realised how much I have missed it. I'm glad you're enjoying it. cheers M-J

Problem I wish As long as you are finishing with the dog wanting more I don't see a problem. cheers M-J

All the time. Works beautifully, a friend of mine works with special needs kids, she loves it. It isn't the clicker that is magic it is the method that is great. Schools use it alot and the standard of learning that kids are achieving now are far higher for the age that was achieved in "my day"(not saying it is the only reason but a few older experienced teachers I have talked to say it very definately helps). Read any kid books Toddler taming and Beyond Toddlerdom are two examples I can think of and they are full of the clicker training methodology. You just need to remember that positive doesn't mean permissive. cheers M-J

I agree, as you're not really (well inadvertently you are) working on the dog's pack drive, in the context where the cessation of activity is being used to reduce fitness. Seems a bit odd to me but as you have said maybe bits of info are missing. I could understand the reasoning if environmental enrichment was being used (only source of good times that happens and it happens minus owner, the rest of life is reasonably boring), but I imagine that would only work with a dog that wasn't overly anxious. cheers M-J

Hi Just a guess... to devalue the owner to the dog. Especially if the walks and playing are done randomly not in a daily pattern or routine. cheers M-J