m-j

But now I had been on a farm for few days, and before that around Xmas for over a week, with farm dogs. Herding dogs, pig dogs, working dogs that are not pets.

And those dogs on farms, hardly ever get a pet, they are more likely to get a kick then a reward, yet those that I had seen knew their jobs really well.

Yes but the hours they get worked for far outweigh what the average owner works their dog for and as was said the majority of their work is highly rewarding so they are prepared to take the knocks as they realise doing as they have been told is contingient on them getting the reward of doing what they like. Not all dogs that are trained for these jobs make it either and alot of the time it is because the owners are too hard for that particular dog, I say this because there has been a fair few times that I have seen/ heard of the dog being given to someone as useless and turn out to be a good worker because the second owner was just a little more patient/tolerant.

cheers

M-J

LC

Excitement, adrenaline, drive whatever to me has the result of the dog wanting to perform a physical activity which is all that matters in the end.

Yes I agree. Call it what you want as long as the dog is having fun.

cheers

M-J

Drive is a life-implicit energy, an urge onwards, a basic need, a compulsive energy

He goes on to categorise drive on exactly what basic need is being met by the activity. Eg. Fear drive, aggressive drive, sex drive, food drive. No adrenalin, no dopamine, no anticipation. Just an urge that gets them doing something until they fulfill that urge.

Motivation is what prompts an animal to do something.

This confuses me when it comes to prey drive being a fixed action pattern there are several stages to prey drive, stalk, run pounce. I have been told/read (can't remember where from) that for an animal to complete this sequence (brain circuit) they need adrenaline as a buffer against slight pain as they need to ignore pain as it may stop them from catching their dinner.

The same can be said for defense drive (as in fight or flight) to feel pain and worry about it could cause them to die if in a fight or fleeing from something. Or have I completely missed the point Maybe he is saying that drive is a fleeting moment of emotion bought about by a stimulus to make the body prepare for action. This to me would be drive initialization Terminology interpretation sheesh

cheers

M-J

They are good aren't they. A groomer friend of mine says they arde even better if used while they are wet.

cheers

M-J

I agree that 100% is a tall order for anything in the real world,

Especially if that "thing" is able to problem solve.

cheers

M-J

I know of several dogs that have been deemed untrainable and recommended to be PTS by these clubs and have been successfully rehabilitated by competent trainers using methods required for that particular dog.

I can actually say the same but going the opposite way with a service dog that was nearly kicked out of the police force, positive methods were applied and the dog got to keep his job.

cheers

M-J

Neither dog was/is as carefully trained as yours,

Very much was, about 20+ years ago. This dog with this lesson and several other incidents with other dogs is what made me explore the concept of positive training and become a crossover trainer.

I don't remember what rule we were discussing, now.

The consistancy one (which ever no it was) as the point trying make was I was every consistant which my punishers for looking at the sheep.

I have a sneaking suspicion some dogs are harder to condition than others.

Definately, my Greys are very much like that. It isn't that they are stupid they don't have the prepardness to want to do what I want them to do even when using a highly desirable motivator, that my Kelpie or my GSD has or many of the other dogs I've owned have. The same reason (or one of them) that your hare, my goats are more difficult to do things with than our dogs as a general rule of thumb.

But you know, sometimes it's just really hard to account for things. I've plenty of times seen animals do bizarre things I have trouble explaining. I expect it's mostly my lack of knowledge

I wouldn't mind betting there would very few trainers say that at least one of their dogs in their liftime of training hasn't done something out of character for whatever reason.

We all lack knowledge or more correctly we don't know everything as I'm sure you would know scientists are finding out things all the time that fly in the face of previously believed theories.

but I think that sometimes we have to accept that they aren't robots to just do exactly what we've gone to great pains to teach them to do and nothing else. They no doubt have ups and downs as well, and moments of near insanity.

Yep I think so.

... no it's simply a constant pressure that sets off a switch in the dogs brain - calm down or the pressure wont go away.

Nekbet could you please explain what process the brain follows to do this or point me in a direction where I can read about it?

cheers

M-J

Positive reinforcement conditioning may correct the situation in time but what "will" correct the situation very quickly in these situations is often known as "blocking"...............yes!!!, negative reinforcement if you aggress, you will loose your air supply and a dog that can't breath will die from that effect which a dog learns fast.

Just out of curiosity is there any reason why you have to walk the dog through a shopping centre or why you couldn't put a muzzle on the dog instead of resorting to threatening the dog with his life?

cheers

M-J

but my understanding of this rule is that it's aimed at the naggers out there.

I hadn't thought of that.

The first being dogs in such a state of drive or arousal that punishments are as nothing.

Yes but something I didn't mention was that the dog actually had a few moments of deliberation, he knew the wire was hot and had actively avoided it in the past. He was about 20 m ahead of me I was advancing on him using the punisher (which had previously been effective at a distance), he was responding in a sense in that he was looking away from the sheep (my criteria for receiving the punisher was looking at sheep with an inkling of that prey drive look) but he was looking back whereas normally after using the punisher once he would move/cringe away from where he was and go and do something else which he knew was safe. It was like he was thinking fluffy bums retreating, hotwire, punisher, fluffy bums, hotwire, punisher, fluffy bums oh what the heck here goes.

So he wasn't actually in full blown prey drive when deliberating but when he decided to go and going through the fence he was. I saw his body jolt when being belted by the fence but he didnt seem to notice it. I have a few theories as to why he chose to blow it off and ignore the threat of the fence, but I really don't know the fact is something that had been very effective under different circumstances for a long time suddenly wasn't.

These things happen, but I am guessing that if it happens rarely, then you can recover with a little extra work with punishments the same way you can with rewards. But maybe it is easier with rewards because you can set them up to win rather than waiting for them to do the wrong thing again.

I do agree with this but I had taken this into consideration when doing the retraining knowing that dogs will only be reliable if you add as many criteria to proofing as you can. I worked this dog in many different situations (different places , me doing different things, different distances, the sheep doing different things) until he didn't respond to the sheep at all and actively looked away through choice. One of my theories was that maintenance training hadn't been done for a long time as the dog did nothing to be punished even though he was exposed to sheep on a regular basis and responded how I wanted him to....dunno .

As you say it is much easier to do maintenance training when rewarding good behaviour.

cheers

M-J

1. The punishment must be something the animal dislikes and something the animal does not expect.

This one confuses me for the punishment to keep the behaviour stopped doesn't the dog need to expect there to consequences for displaying the behaviour that is undesirable to the handler. Hence the reason, I believe, for rule no 5, (5. The punishment must be associated with the behavior, but not with the trainer. Otherwise, the trainer becomes part of the punishment and the animal starts fearing and disliking the trainer.)

.

Well if it's inconsistency the handler should be punished.

:D If the handler is using punishment I'm inclined to agree, but when a dog is being punished for something in many cases there are sooo many variables as to why the dog is being punished the dog has to go through several/many trials to guess which one it is to eventually get it right, traditional methods of teaching heeling is a good example, whereas when stopping an undesirable behaviour when what the dog is doing after the undesirable behaviour (to the handler) has ceased is irrelevant e.g. chasing something, it is easier to stop it with only one correction as there isn't much guessing on the dogs part.

However if the dog finds the behaviour extremely rewarding sometimes they will blow off the punishment to perform the desirable behaviour e.g. a trapped animal mutilating itself to escape from confinement, my sheep killer blowing off his punisher that had worked for over 12mths ( with retraining I was able to walk this dog offlead through a mob or in a paddock with running sheep then one day he said not today those fluffy butts retreating are too much for me to ignore and he also went through a hotwire that had managed to keep bulls in and he got belted several times as he was scrambling over the fence, so he actually blew off two huge punishers ) and the greys at work going through hotwires they know are there to chase a bunny.

The above is the reason I'm not too certain about rule no 6 being gospel either. I'm certainly not saying you don't need to be consistant I personally think it is a dog trainers greatest asset, but not 100% reliable but then what is apart from death and taxes

cheers

M-J

Well, don't laugh, but sometimes she actually sits on the couch facing the couch back - like she's in the naughty corner

I have one that will lie in her bed with her back to everyone occasionally, it is like she is turning her back on the minions one of the reasons why she has been nicknamed princess Katie.

my dog Leo only sits up on the couch when a storm is coming. He hates them. Goldie sits when she wants food (has been trained) the others don't sit at all.

Yes I believe it is a calming signal (just my own thoughts don't know if I'm right or not) for themselves and others. I would be interested in finding out if they are releasing soothing pheremones or something like that while doing it

cheers

M-J

mine sit if we're out walking and stop to chat. they sit because they are bored, but can't be bothered to lie down.

Yes dogs don't like having their walks interrupted by owners having a chat.

And our girl often sits on the couch with OH watching tv.

Does she sit on the couch if she is on it by herself?

At the kennels I work at my first indication a dog is not happy is the fact that they have started sitting in their kennels, quite often it is my only indication due to the fact they are stoic with injuries. One time a dog started sitting in his kennel was telling me he wasn't happy with a dog that we had recently put in a kennel facing him as they had a fight nearly 8 mths earlier and he was upset that the dog could watch him. When I moved the other dog out of his line of vision he stopped sitting in his kennel.

cheers

M-J

Will scream like a possessed banshee at nothing, but not even whimper at the most severe injuries.

Another thing I've found with greyhounds if they sit (not on command or for a brief moment before lying down but through their own initiative) is a heads up somethings not right with that dog, be it physical or psycological.

cheers

M-J

That's good!!!! whew.

cheers

M-J

Healing wishes to Grover and my sympathy to Steve and yourself. Yana is great to be so understanding.

cheers

M-J

Thanks for that I'll give Billie a call.

cheers

M-J

Where? When? Is it too late to book in for the Sunday?

cheers

M-J

Thanks Aidan.

Long story short the reason I was curious as I was wondering if defense coupled perhaps with territory or "personal space" can be a catalyst for the chasing which in the case of a bike coming and going is very self rewarding, for some dogs.

cheers

M-J

Interestingly, despite all the dogs being herding or terrier breeds, prey drive had very little to do with these particular dogs chasing bikes (although it is often a factor).

Why did these dogs want to chase? Did they display other behaviours with the chasing?

cheers

M-J

Dogs are definately very aware of quantity (but quality is a better motivator) I use jackpots in a large lump to denote the end of a behaviour taught in increments ( in the learning stage) In my mind (and I hoping the dogs) they will want to do the finished product again with fewer increments.

I also jackpot if the dog is having trouble understanding what I want (and starting to shut down on me) and I have had to go back in training and I get close to the increment I was at when I went back and I then end the training session, all to build the dogs motivation to try again next time. Not really sure if it works for the dog as I've always done it ( so have nothing to compare it to) maybe they would try again just as keenly without the jackpot but it helps my frustration/guilt from pushing the dog too far, too fast.

I also jackpot when stringing exercises together.

cheers

M-J

Hey M-J, the cue at the moment is definitely targeting my hand, as that's how I'm getting her to do walk over the phone book! I was hoping that if I tried to be very precise in clicking the exact moment her foot hit the book as she walked over it, she would start to understand the concept, but she's not quite got it yet. I think she just finds it conceptually really difficult to think about her hind feet. I guess they normally just follow along behind her front ones...

Yes I agree and the phone book is just an incidental as is the ground they walk on(which is why i suggested pulsing with the phone book, but I think that would be difficult due to the book being bulky) .

Just another thought in brief, target her back foot your foot (to make it easier for you) put your foot on the book and then remove your foot, and leave her's on the book and then changing the cue (new cue/old cue) so she isn't reliant on your foot being there, for her to target to the book?? If that makes sense.

cheers

M-J

Prey drive is just that, prey. You want to hear the difference where the dog goes from 'gimme the sleeve!! *yip yip yip*' to 'make a move and I'll take that damn sleeve from you.' and you will notice a deeper, larger bark.

I agree, from working with the greyhounds while teaching them to chase (a toy) and when they catch ,don't let go. Some growl when they have caught the toy and it is trying get away, whereas they never ever vocalise when chasing (the others that are spectating do the yip yip) but with those that don't vocalise after the catch, there is a difference in their demeanor especially after they have caught onto the idea of don't let go.

cheers

M-J

Perhaps you can teach her to target her back foot by pulsing (Kayce Cover) with the phone book??

Video yourself doing whatever you are doing with her and see if you can work out what she is getting her cue off ie getting her to move backwards onto the book she maybe watching your hand or some part of your body?? sometimes this is hard to work out as you are concentrating on her back foot to "catch the moment".

cheers

M-J

Agree with Erny. Predatory behaviour is not aggression. Predatory behaviour is a sequence of behaviours

I agree also. My understanding is that it is a fixed action pattern which means it is driven by a stimuli that isn't emotional as such but intrinsic ie see a quick moving thing and I must chase. Another example of a FAP is let down ( release of milk into the breasts of lactating animals), 12 mths after i had finished feeding my son I would hear a baby cry and let down, consciously I was thinking what the heck!! yuck babies but a different part of my brain had other ideas (I like kids but I'm not the most maternal person I know).

Athough it is described as predatory aggression, somewhere in Volume 1 of Steven Linsay's books he mentions that the chase and pounce bit of predatory behaviour is the FAP and when the dog is chomping down, tearing etc he has switched drives and it is defense aggression. Well that is my understanding of what I read.

cheers

M-J

[Dogs are far more interactive in our human civilised world and it is necessary for them to perform and respond to commands regardless of whatever else they would want or prefer to be doing at that moment. We often can't just shrug it off with an "oh well".

The same can be said for dogs. If not the dogs and people that enter into comps don't pass everytime so they too have to say oh well better luck next time, and I'm talking about very experienced triallers that would be considered to be a balanced trainers, who do get passes and a some have trained/trialled many many dogs for decades.

cheers

M-J