m-j

I'm sorry to hear this has happened to you. The only thing that I would like to add to this disscussion is when selecting a trainer/behaviourist be very wary of anyone who says they can "fix" your dog forever, this is not true. It seems like your dog has learned that aggression works for him and although he may be trained to deal with these situations in another way, even many years down the track if under stress he may revert back to his initial learning, which is the aggression.

cheers

M-J

I believe you can use whatever technique or tool you fancy with dog aggressive dogs, but you can never rush the natural process of desensitisation which occurs slowly and over time with regular exposure to other dogs. Everything else, whether it be clicker, prong or whatever are just tools and techniques to help us handlers handle our dogs whilst the process of desensitisation is taking place naturally and on it's own time.

I agree.

I see this at the kennels I work at and it isn't only pain that will trigger it, a dog coming up from going under a fence will start this behaviour as well. It doesn't matter if the dog is going into another pack's territory or coming back into it's own territory with it's own pack. They don't do it if the dog is going from the pack under the fence, well not that I have seen anyway, unless the dog's on the other side of the fence get them going.

Pack mentality is weird, what triggers it I have no idea, but humans have it too.

cheers

M-J

Or there's the Victoria Stillwell version ....

Because if the chicken did not cross the road, I had a loud horn blow until it did cross the road. When it had crossed the road, this loud noise stopped. And the chicken was given food. And I know this because I have CCTV hooked up to my car. (And crap! I just broke the heel on my shoel! Make-up!!!!)

Ah but honestly this is why it is so hard

Which one is right?

As RS said, but if I wanted to get a chook to cross a road I would use the Kasey Cover (I think this is the wrong way to spell her name) version.

cheers

M-J

ETA The original idea was food versus, say, a rock or piece of metal. Something that is entirely disappointing could be aversive enough.

I think the above is a good idea. Entirely disappointing will definately be universal, is only a mild adversive so should be ethical, and habituation will most likely not occur (boring rarely stops being boring, unless the dog has the opportunity to become innovative with the rock or metal).

ETA Because the signal is important I'm assuming all the concomittant clues that the signal is going to be given need to be identical, perhaps you could have the food scent present (that the dog can't access) with the rock or metal.

cheers

M-J

LOL.

You forgot the drive trainers version - the chicken seeks to achieve drive satisfaction by crossing the road!

Or you could have the Kasey Cover version ... teach an intermediate bridge, name the walk, name the road, and give an intermediate bridge while the chook is crossing and a terminal bridge when it has crossed.

I found this joke funny, hope you do too.

WHY DID THE CHICKEN CROSS THE ROAD?

(Dog Trainer Version)

Pavlov: we fed the chicken on the opposite side of the road each day at 4

p.m. until the chicken?s autonomic system actually began causing the chicken

to cross the road at 4 p.m. without even questioning the "why".

B.F. Skinner: on prior occasions when the chicken voluntarily crossed the

road, this behavior was followed immediately by a reinforcing consequence.

Cesar Milan: I bullied, chased, poked, and intimidated the chicken until it

raced across the road, because I am a strong leader.

Barbara Woodhouse: You just say, "Walkies" with the right accent and place a

crumpet on the other side of the road.

Karen Pryor: by associating R+ with road crossing and P+ with standing

still, with a VR schedule, and offering a reward in keeping with the Premack

principle, we increased the intensity and frequency of the road crossing

behavior.

Bill Koehler: a few well-timed pops on the choke chain and the chicken was

happy to cross the road.

Nicholas Dodman: I gave the chicken fluoxetine, sertraline, paroxetine,

carbamazepine, and azapirone and then it was happy to cross the road.

Patti Ruzzo: I crossed the road, pausing every step to spit a treat out of

my mouth like a human pez dispenser and the chicken followed along catching

the treats.

Electric Collar Advocate: whenever the chicken does not cross the road I

give it an electric shock. But do not worry, the shock is no more than you

would feel if you walked on a carpet wearing socks and it does not bother

the chicken at all. The feathers standing up and the smell of burning flesh

mean nothing. In fact, they are happier having nice clear communication than

they would be otherwise.

Yuppie: chickens are just like little people in feather jackets, and if you

love them and give them diamonds and feel sorry for them all the time, they

will be happy to cross the road for you.

Paris Hilton: Because I put it in a Gucci bag and carried it.

Shelter director: Any chickens that do not cross the road will be euthanized

for their own good, and the others we will "adopt" out tomorrow for only

$200 each. Please send us money so we can keep doing more of this important

work!

HSUS member: I do not know anything about animals, I have never been around

animals and am not really fond of animals, but we passed a law mandating

that chickens be kept without cages because animals belong only in the wild

and cannot be happy coexisting with man, so now they are walking wherever

they want.

PETA member: chickens have the right to live in world without roads. Any

chicken that lives within a hundred miles of a road is suffering an inhumane

existence and might eventually be hit by a car so we should kill it today to

ensure that it does not die tomorrow.

Thanks for the great suggestions I will pass them on.

cheers

M-J

It is in Open out of sight stays. She was fine through CCD and CD but as soon as the handler goes she starts the fidgeting and whining. She hasn't broken but is loosing points, which has blown some really good scores. I'm not actually sure how many Open trials she has been in, but apparently it is getting worse.

cheers

M-J

Hi

A friend of mine has a problem when her dog is in the out of sight stays her dog fidgets and whines. The dog, as I said, doesn't do this in training but she is either with dogs she knows or she has been in class with the dogs she is doing the stays with long enough to become accustomed to them and not worry. The problem is in the trial ring when she needs to stay with completely strange dogs. I'm just wondering if anyone has any suggestions for this problem.

cheers

M-J

Hope you don't get sick of me too much! ;)

Today I started to teach them 'shake'. Spot got it really well and has gone ahead in leaps and bounds, and will 'shake' on command already. He kind of knew the trick beforehand.

Peggie is getting a little confused. She still thinks she needs to 'drop' to get the treat. She automatically goes into a drop when I start training. Which is a little annoying as I need her sitting to teach shake. When I do get her sitting and start training, I lift her paw and click and reward. She hasn't quite got the hang of offering me her paw yet [but I don't expect her too, she learns slower than Spot]. I'll swap back to Spot and then to Peggie again and she goes back to dropping to get the reward [not that I am clicking it]. I can see that she is getting confused, but I don't know how to fix it.

What am I doing wrong?

Probably nothing. Did you get Peggy to sit before you asked her to drop while she was learning to drop? If so maybe she is anticipating the drop and anything else you do is irrelevant. If so, I would start the handshake training while she is in a different position i.e. standing don't ask her to stand if she knows the stand cue or you may end up with the same problem. Once she has got the idea of offering the paw on cue and is doing it with confidence, then ask her to sit and then very quickly ask her offer the paw.

Just thoughts.

cheers

M-J

Totally off topic, but check out the extension in that horse!!!

It hasn't got bad extension in it's mouth also. ;)

True, but just look athe the topline, reach and drive and you can see how stretched it's muscles are - awesome

I must confess i don't know a great deal about that type of thing as my experience with horses was in a racing stable and the only real thing that was admired was a fast horse, how it achieved that (gait wise) was basically irrelevant, so long as it was sound.

One day I watched Andrew Hoy working one of his horses (he used to live just down the road from me and I was driving past saw him so pulled over to watch)for a short time. I can only say it was breath taking to see him working it, this horse had extension plus and it was a stunner.

Totally off topic, but check out the extension in that horse!!!

It hasn't got bad extension in it's mouth also.

NDTF has politics according to everyone who is deliberately not a member of NDTF.

M-J, I think Steve will be quite good. I've always wanted to hear Peta Clarke talk, mostly because her bio photo has a quoll in it. I think her talk on emotions in animals will be interesting, though. There are some whisperings about the inadequacy of operant conditioning to explain all behaviour, but people are still a bit scared of talking about animal emotions.

The zoo day sounds like it would be great too *sigh*. Actually it all seems good but I have house that needs work done to it and the budget just doesn't allow for seminars and 4 - 5 days off work

cheers

M-J

I would love to go I'm interested in what Steve has to say about scent work. That is one area (apart from tracking) you don't get many seminars on, that I'm aware of.

cheers

M-J

Albury and Border Kennel club is changing to positive methods. Tonight was only the second night. There are several club members that do herding don't know where but someone at the club will be able to help you when you get here. There is also tracking, again I'm not sure where but there are members of the club who do it and can help you if you decide to try it out. As Poodlefan/Trisven said, Sam is an excellent trainer.

I don't really do obedience training more behavioural problems, or if someone wants private lessons.

There are walking groups. The group at one of the local vets, when I was able to go, I found very good for socialising/ introducing my Greys that have only had a kennel life, into the real world.

This is a nice place to live but I'm not sure if you will like our winters after being Brisbane.

cheers

M-J

It sounds like it's not uncommon for dogs to get mixed up between their right and left front paws. That's funny, as it's not uncommon for humans, either!

Gosh no, not this human anyway.

I sometimes need to think about driving a car to determine left and right (Temple Grandin's Thinking in Pictures comes to mind when I do) I would be stuffed in America

cheers

M-J

I've started using intermediate bridges and stationary targets.

I found intermediate bridges invaluable for duration and adding another target of another body part or removing the original target to get the dog to target to another object i.e putting the dogs chin on the ground or a target I can't move to get the dog to target to, by using my fingers as the original target.

Not sure if this will help but with the front feet I changed the way I presented the target for the different feet as different words seemed to mean diddly squat to the dog, but maybe that's just a me issue.

cheers

M-J

Hi

I'm toying with the idea of organising a free seminar for people considering getting a dog. I am just wondering if anyone has any ideas for topics. I have thought of the usual husbandry considerations and legalities etc but I thought I would put this out there as many minds are better than one. All thoughts appreciated.

cheers

M-J

Hi

There is also another form of using a lead as a harness you put the ring on the collar to the top of the dogs neck wrap the lead around the dog's ribs behind the front legs, then back through the ring on the collar. this works if you have a long lead, no good with short leads. I think it was called a Patti Ruzso (sp?) handbag. This generally works well also if the dog doesn't put alot of effort into pulling backwards.

cheers

M-J

Hungry children are also proof of this, even if mums aren't calm and assertive.

Wow!! she's going to be a fantastic trainer, I imagine in the not too distant future.

Yep she can belt out a command my throat is sore just listening to her.

cheers

M-J

What a tragedy RIP. Lest We Forget

All the dogs live outside, however old boy is let in every now and then to relax in his old age.

This possibly isn't helping either, what are they like when the old boy rejoins the pack outside?

cheers

M-J