m-j

I agree. I know 8 examples, with different dogs, of a prong being used isn't many and maybe the ratio I have seen is not the norm and as I have said I know I'm really not "qualified" to say to ban or not, but when you see 8 examples of a prong being used used by and under the instructions of 3 different experiened trainers/instructors where 2 of them go a little bit pear shaped I think it is reasonable to be a bit dubious about them and claiming they do no harm.

Why is it trainer error?

No not that I'm aware of and I have known the owner since he got the dog and still do.

Sorry, yes you are right, which is why I don't think it is correct to say they can't cause harm, the owner needs to be safe too.

He did I can't see how a prong collar is going to stop a dog from getting to you if the dog is coming at you any better than any other tool, particularly if the use of the tool is the catalyst for the aggression, especially a "tough dog". As I said before I don't think I am able to make that judgement, so I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be banned but to say they can't cause harm is not true, as most agree like with many other things.

No it wasn't redirected aggression, the dog was not aggressing, just wanting to go for a walk, when the mild correction was applied the dog swung around and bit him. I believe the dog was worried. The dog was far less stimulated than I had seen on many occasions before and after (including aggression) that didn't end with the owner copping a bite after him giving a correction.

How could it be far more dangerous if the PP collar is also causing a reaction?

The dog that I knew before and after didn't react when wearing his collar or when put into a no pull harness. He didn't like it as he couldn't get what he wanted when he wanted but he didn't react aggressively. The other dog I have no idea if it would have reacted on a flat collar or not but he was quite happy to wear the check chain before and after the demo, but as I'm sure you know several hours is only a very brief look into that dogs life, maybe that dog would react on a flat collar, who knows.

I see what you are saying and agree but I've been to quite a few seminars, handled many dogs with other training aids on, a lot more than 3 times, and have had one dog react with me on a no pull harness, the dog was fully loaded so I wasn't surprised. Neither of the two dogs in the examples that reacted were loaded. The experienced trainer is highly regarded and has been an advocate of prongs for many years so you would assume that the trainer would know how to use the collar correctly.

I'm assuming you mean documented evidence, I can give 2 seperate examples where the use of a prong collar has caused the dog to react aggressively toward the handler, one an owner the other a very experienced trainer, as far as I'm concerned a highly undesirable response. Neither of these were documented. Obviously a few have tried the collar on themselves and state that they don't inflict pain, these dogs obviously thought that the tool inflicted enough of an adversive to deem a reaction like that. The dog that bit his owner had never been aggressive before and hasn't been since. I have only been to 3 seminars where they have been talked about and demoed and I have used one once so don't feel I know enough about these collars to comment on whether they should be banned or not, but to say they can't cause harm I don't believe is strictly correct.

I agree, plus there is no way my boss would pay me to do what I do if all he had to do was leave them in a kennel

Sorry no scientific proof but I don't believe that is true, if that was the case I wouldn't have a job, which is to build drive in the pre race Greyhounds. I work with dogs that are and aren't kennelled and I haven't noticed a difference in their drive to chase or not to chase. I have done this with I estimate around 500+ dogs over the years so a reasonably large amount of dogs to compare. There are certain things I have found that impact on their drive but kennelling isn't one of them IMHO. Having said that I don't use animals to build their drive though, which may mean my observations are not relevant to your situation.

So....... they replace the one dog that can search x amount of people in a lot faster time than several police officers, who need somewhere to go to do a thorough search. Dogs can find drugs that have been swallowed, which humans can't without the aid of expensive machinery, how is that cost saving . The US army spent $9,000,000 developing a device to detect bombs to replace the dog only to find dogs are still far more successful :D I with those who would rather have a dog sniff them, than be subjected to a human search.

So sorry to hear of your loss , hope you can find the source. RIP Brock.

I believe sometimes we do interfere too much, but how much risk do you want to take I also wonder too if dogs understand some signals better than others (a bit like people speaking english with different accents, understanding most words but not all) A few years ago I had a dog come to me that was very reactive, he used a shake off alot. When it came to the stage of his training where I thought he was ready to meet multiple dogs off lead he was very tense even though the seven dogs were friendly and he had seen them all before. He at one point was interacting with my GSD and he was tense even though my dog was giving calming signals but not a shake off. I had put several calming signals on cue with her so I asked her to give a shake off, the change in the reactive dog was instant it was like he went "oh I get it you want to be friends" he had a ball after that and while he didn't play he certainly joined in with the rest of the group activities (all sniffing the same interesting smell for example) instead of being a loner, it was lovely to see.

I agree with this statement in respect to DA. I was watching one of those reality police TV shows (not Australian) and a car chase ended with the person jumping out of his car and swimming across a river. On the other side of the river were two dog handlers, the guy got out of the water and ran inbetween the two dogs who had to remain on lead as they just wanted to nail each other (they completely ignored the guy, one even moved to the side as the guy passed through so he could see the other dog) so because of this they were totally useless. If either of them had been released they would have just attacked the other. This doesn't strike me as a useful trait for a protection/police dog.

I'm guessing that possibly the dog isn't taking any notice of what you are saying/doing, she is just repeating a behaviour that has bought her a reward in the past. Don't just ask for the same cue for a long period of time, ask for both in the one training session. As was mentioned even if you need to lure the dog to achieve this. When luring your dog make sure your hand is in a similar position to the hand signal you intend to use. Don't reward sits or drops you didn't cue. If she throws a behaviour at you ask her to do something else then reward her. Even though 10-15 mins isn't much to us it is a longish session for a dog just starting training. Try short training sessions, several times a day. When I say short if the dog does one sit and then a drop correctly even with being lured leave it at that. Sometimes going for the dreaded "one more" can stuff up a good training session.

In many cases this probably is true, but we have an innate desire to stay alive and if we know this is a consequence I imagine it would be considered. If I was/had ever been given the opportunity to have to make that decision I believe it would put me off, even at the stage in my life where money was short and risk taking not such a determining factor in making any decision. :rolleyes: What about the example of the Greys that have experienced the fences reprimand, but still choose to blow it off. I know that these examples are anecdotal but when training using compulsion aren't dogs weighing up consequences to avoid a reprimand, by not doing a desired behaviour anyway? I believe that the conflict in decision making can be also considered as fallout to training with adversives, if you desire an immediate response i.e. life threatening situation of dog not choosing to drop immediatly instead of running across the road to chase cat when a car is coming. Exactly and if the pup is determined, the warning and the reprimand will be blown off and if there are several pups doing the same thing the bitch will get up and move. I always provide a way of letting the bitch escape if she feels the need, during the weaning period. It doesn't mean they are neccessarily hungry , they just want mum's food not mine

In short the pups can learn to ignore her i.e. when the pups want to feed and she won't let them but they insist and blow her reprimands off, so she has to get up and move. When the payoff it great it is worth taking the risk of the correction to gain the reward. Human drug couriers do it a lot, they risk the ultimate punishment of death to gain the reward. Greys at work that blow off an electric fence to get a bunny, whereas the same fence if touched by the same dog in different circumstances sends the dog back up the other end of the 200m paddock/pen screaming, at a very fast pace. Also mum's do "give treats" they play with and groom their pups more often than they reprimand them (well this what I have experienced with the few litters I have raised) I don't know if mum had asked for something other than sometimes pinning the pup down initially so it can be groomed, but I don't believe dogs tell each other to do things anyway, only not to do things and this is only if they are prepared to get into a conflict, the exception could be co-operative hunting, although I'm not really sure about this ???

Thanks all for your replies. Dagmar if I do see it again I will try. How long do you apply the pressure for? OOS what is head pressing?

WAers you will be pleased to know that Sue is coming back (if you didn't know already) and I can understand why you want her back, it was a great weekend, she is a good presenter with lots of good, common sense ideas and I'm fairly confident in assuming she has many others we didn't hear about. Lovely to meet you TSD and Kallistar. Hope to see you in July Kallistar.

Hi Just recently I have seen two dogs (Greyhounds) that have had involuntry head wobbling/shaking as I said in the topic description it is like they have Parkinsons. With both dogs it didn't last very long, they didn't appear to be in any pain and with both dogs I have only seen it once. Both times the dogs were anticipating an exciting event. One dog I don't know the other is my own and I think she may have done it once about two years ago. Can anyone tell me could be going on?

Sorry you didn't know about this TO. It was "advertised" on OzObedience as it is a trialling seminar, next time we have her here there will be a post on DOL

Really, what a surprise!

Big few days coming up for you. I love watching LL's dogs I had the privilege of watching her train (and mustering cows out of the way ) one time when she came up this way .