ninaandted

thanks so much for putting up this thread - I was going to ask a similar question!! and thanks for the helpful replies.

i'm opening a can of worms now... if you do a search on this site on "clicker" you will get lots of hits and there are some links there to other clicker training sites. if I start trying to explain anything I'll just confuse you as I'm only new to it myself.

that was the same problem with our freckle. except is was three legs and that last one was the clincher!!! never doing it again!! if you want to keep using the pads have you thought about clicker training/shaping the behaviour? I'm sure there are more experienced clicker people out there who could suggest something, but as a newbie to clicking it sounds like a good shaping thing to try, she's halfway there at least! sorry - off topic!

we found them useful with my old JRT because we were taking her into work with us and she needed an inside spot because of the set up at work. we gave her a private back corner and she used the wee pads. bad news though when we went home because the carpet was the same colour and absorbent!!! it put back "normal" toilet training by a long way in my opinion. with nina and ted being taught to go only outside we've had a much better result all around and much more trustworthy in that respect when visiting other people!! I definitely would not use them again, even under the same circumstances.

you have my great emphathy with this one. I'm sorry I can't contribute anything other than that though and think you've received some great advice so far from everyone (which I'll also be using too!) Nina has no excuses about being dog motivated!! she has been socialised and has Ted at home to play with, but somehow the ones at class are much more interesting!! she's also difficult to distract with food and would much prefer a ball but then she thinks it's "game on" and that's the end of training!! our experience with group training was even worse than yours though - the trainer insisted that the only way to cure her of it was to use a check chain and I mean REALLY use it. Check chains may have their place but he put one on her and corrected her really hard before I even knew what he was intending to do! Needless to say I haven't been back... I just don't think that it is the only way - she responds to positives so very well.

hmmmm, tricky. our escape artist just used to go through the fence!! I don't know how your back yard is set up but you could put a second obstacle in front of the fence to stop the "run up" to the jump? what I'm thinking of, is maybe planting something in those parts of the fence that will eventually block it a bit and putting up a second lower fence in front of that maybe. it could be as simple as trellis wire - doesn't have to be a proper fence but if it breaks up the run up and makes it harder for her to jump over. also depends how the dog is jumping over them - does she need a run up or is it a standing start?

ted our golden retriever doesn't play games alone either. he gets lots of encouragement from nina and will play with her, but not by himself or with us. We haven't really worried about it because he plays with Nina and my arm is already sore from throwing the ball for her! He doesn't seem concerned and is much more interested in pats and food. he will retrieve the toys (and socks) that are lying around and put them in a pile and guard them!!! he will also take the squeaker out of toys to stop Nina making a racket! but if you throw the toy he just doesn't get the point! Nina on the other hand loves squeaky toys, balls, and playing tug with Ted. there was a training technique from the "dog whisperer" book for getting a dog interested in balls/toys. i can't really remember it very well but I think it involved you playing with the toy/ball out of their reach (or while someone else is holding the dog's lead and they can't get to the toy) and rewarding when they paid attention to it and building it up until they were chasing the ball/toy. you could also try a "treat ball" too maybe? a self-rewarding toy...

if she can drop, maybe have her in a down there and lure her up while gently keeping her bottom down? Ted took a bit of a while with sit too, but he hadn't had any training at all before he came to us. I actually thought there might be something wrong with his hips at the time because I hadn't even seen him sit of his own volition - he liked lounging about much better! none of the stuff you mentioned worked for him either. I even had Nina doing "demonstrations" for him. he just used to look at me with this expression on his face as if to say "well, when am I getting some food?" as he wasn't trained to do anything, except look gorgeous ;) , I resorted to pushing his bottom on the ground once to try and show him what was required and gave him a treat as soon as his bottom hit the ground. I didn't really have to do it again after that and don't like to do it as a rule, but he didn't know how to do anything at that stage!! he responded to the "lures" much better after that for other training and for moving into a sit. he now sits all the time. it's still not as prompt as Nina but he will do it.

I think you have raised some interesting points Amstaff.ws and Saltwood. there are just some things that dogs shouldn't do and a well understood "no" is really useful - if not lifesaving. whilst I agree about rewarding the behaviour you do want, I do think some dogs need boundaries - for their own good. if they don't understand what a reprimand is at all then you have nothing to use when you come up against a situation that you haven't yet trained for. someone once suggested on this forum (not in this thread) that you shouldn't use "no" as it can be overused, but i would tend to disagree. if you are constantly saying "no" to your dog about a certain behaviour then of course this is an opportunity to give it a "doing" command. but for new or one-off situations it is also very clear.

ahhh K9, you just made my afternoon. I have the scar on my hand to prove your theory. venetian cord-long lead recall training very bad with lightening fast jack russell!! must remember the piano wire next time. i'm sure it actually hurts less! i know... off topic...

Another possibility are "button tumors" - if the bald spot also has a lump underneath. They are benign tumors that usually heal up within a week or so. there is no treatment offered but you do need to keep them clean and can use antiseptic on them as they can get infected. if they don't heal within the fortnight then the vet needs to do a biopsy. Nina had two of these and her hair is only just growing back now. if there is no lump it will be something else more than likely. they are apparently common in puppies from six months up to about eighteen months of age. I hadn't ever heard of them, but that doesn't count for much!

I work for a not for profit organisation that is run by a Committee of volunteers and we have a huge volunteer program and it continually annoys me how people "forget" what volunteering means. It is giving your time without reward. Sure - the organisation and its members might recognise your hard work and give a volunteer a gift or thank you, but Committee members should never have the right to ignore the rules, get preferential treatment or attend any sessions for free, unless they are specifically requested to be there. If they do so, it can be considered by the Tax Department to be a Fringe Benefit and can be taxed accordingly and either the individual or the organisation has to pay it. It is also a serious conflict of interest for a Committee member to be involved in any kind of incident like this, because presumably they are also provide the "discipline" in the club, including banning or preventing people from attending. Being on a Committee can be a real drag and involves having standards much, much higher than the average member, but most Committee members are driven by their passion for their club, not the "perks" that come with it. The Committee is accountable to the members, not the other way around. She should be removed from the Committee immediately. Sounds hard line but it is just good governance and risk management.

that's really great for you aton and i'm happy that your dog behaves that way for you. but... dogs' natures vary, from breed to breed and individual dog. And dogs may behave one way without any stimulation, but completely differently under another situation. for instance if another dog was going past the property, or a small animal etc. i wouldn't risk having my dogs under the arrangement that seems to work for yours. I know that one of my dogs would be off for a chase if another dog went past, whereas the other would just ignore it completely. I also have to go to work each day and can't supervise them and would not leave them under those conditions without someone home all day. just as I wouldn't say that every dog needed one of these fences, I couldn't say that they wouldn't be useful for some dogs. just because you have been fortunate enough to have a dog that behaves in that way doesn't mean that all dogs will, or that the owners of the dogs that don't haven't provided any training. some instincts are bred into dogs and that will dominate their nature.

that was exactly my point too. its the humans that are wrong here, not necessarily the "fence". if someone has the perverse desire to hurt a dog they don't need an expensive fence!! I think this issue needs to be considered in context. if there is a greater threat to the dog (getting run over, being PTS at the pound, neighbours retaliating etc) then you have to consider realistic options. any responsible owner would have gone through all the other possible options available at the time and that can be realistically implemented, just as KitKat has.

okay - i wasn't going to respond... but i couldn't help it. afton are you really interested in what is in the best interest of the dog or what is the letter of the law? we all know the law can be ridiculous sometimes, so I think it is irrelevant to what I thought you originally posted about. In some states the COURT directs dog owners to use these fences... so there is also no consistency nationwide. if you are interested in considering what is in the best interests of the dogs then abandon your argument along the legal lines. ANYTHING can be misused and be used to abuse a dog, including their normal collars (you just have to look in the rescue section of this website). Are we going to make those illegal? I thought your original question was about the use in practice and the effects on dogs of these types of fences. If an owner was some kind of freak and forced the dog into the zone where it was zapped repeatedly I would whole heartedly support your stance, but most dogs can figure it out... that's the idea... and then they don't go near them. if the manufacturers INTENDED for the dogs to be zapped repeatedly they wouldn't build in the noise warning for them to learn from.

hi cindy's mum, i have the same problem with Nina (our lab cross...) she's too friendly by half and carries on like a maniac when other dogs go past. she loves other dogs and just behaves badly when on the lead. anyway - we started going to a training group. they don't allow socialisation but they do work on self-control for your dog. it hasn't worked over night, but it is gradually working. get some guidance - it does speed things up and the trainer can also help you assess what will work with your dog's nature. often when you are reading things your dog doesn't react the way it says it is supposed to which can leave you with more questions than answers!

the only thing i can suggest with an older, mainlyoutside dog that you are converting to an indoor/outdoor dog is to treat their toilet training like you would a puppy. take them out every hour or so and take them to the spot you want and praise them when they go and do what they are meant to do outside. the advantage with an older dog in this respect is usually they will do a pee at least pretty quickly! sometimes with puppies they just don't get the point!! you also won't have the frequency you do with puppies so that will help your sanity a bit. you will need to keep this up pretty consistently and don't expect the results any faster than you would for a puppy. it may take a while to click to do it outside. if they have been outside on grass mainly you will probably have a better time. We got an older puppy (still under twelve months old) but because he'd always been kept in a concrete run he would pee and poo anywhere he felt like it because that is what he was used to!!! he still makes mistakes if the door is closed but is getting the point. we still make sure that we take him out every hour when we have him inside. in the beginning he just didn't even know the difference between inside and outside and even if the door was open he might still go inside. I just kept telling myself "lots of opportunities for training..."

I had the same problem with my old jack russell and all men. male visitors (we had her at work with us all day) wouldn't listen to me and loved playing biting games with her and their hands. i really loathe visitors and partners who won't support your training. it's one of my pet peeves because they are usually the first to protest when the dog is misbehaving!! and of course once they have wound them up it is all on for young and old!! :D anyway - that was a personal gripe - sorry about that!! our jrt eventually grew out of it but we were given some "dominance" tips from our vet who had a belief that JRTs were the most dominant dogs on the planet!! she regarded all disobedience and ignoring "no" as a dominance thing. I no longer necessarily agree with everything she said (it was my first dog at the time) but i found a couple of things useful for asserting that you are boss, getting "no" really understood and calming them down. I would say "no", interrupt the behaviour and get them to either sit or drop and have them stay there, with a hand on the puppy if necessary. depends on the age of the puppy how long the stay is. if young less time (say 10 seconds) and as they get older a bit longer. then release and if they start biting again repeat until they equate it with an immediate stop to the fun. it's like time out but you can do it immediately and don't have to have a "spot" as such. it was useful for us because we might be in many different environments. the second one which I find more effective if our dogs currently cross the line is to hold their head still with both hands and look them in the eyes and growl and say the no. I wouldn't try this with a truly dominant dog though!!! but for a puppy just testing the boundaries it can get across that you really mean "no" and holding their head stops them biting (or doing whatever they were doing) it's all in the way you say the "no" too, until they understand what the word means. don't yell or get high pitched. the more it sounds like a growl the more they might understand. once they understand the meaning of the word the tone becomes less important but like "come" and "sit" it is a new language. think of a tone of voice your parents used to use that stopped you in your tracks when you were being naughty and it might work. I imitate my mother's "you're in trouble voice" and it doesn't matter what I'm saying the dogs stop and look at me and know I'm not pleased!! and she never yelled!! just be clear and immediate in your responses to the behaviour. they really don't understand the lecture that comes 30 seconds to a minute after they have done something wrong.

the whites of the eggs can bind with biotin and prevent its absorption, but if your dog is getting a well rounded diet it should have minimal effect unless you are feedling lots of eggs!!! I'd heard that boiled eggs will constipate dogs but this could be an urban myth - it was told to me by someone who was talking about stories they had heard about racing greyhounds and other owners sabotaging a dog just before the race. like I said though - could be a comlete fallacy.

I meant to also add - one of the positives we've noticed is that the dogs smell nicer since they have been on the barf diet. has anyone else experienced this? we aren't big on bathing them alot, although we brush regularly and have noticed that Ted's smell isn't as "heavy" (if that makes sense).

Nina and Ted are on a "barfy" diet mainly because Nina can't eat most of the commercial foods we've tried. she has some kind of irritable bowel problem that has her with runny poos all the time and blood when eating any commercial food - canned or dry. the vet can't isolate what the problem is but we have just experiemented with her diet until we found something that worked. we hadn't tried every brand of food on the market but thought that if it was going to come down to having to be that picky we would just change over to barf anyway!! they both get a bowl of either chicken necks or wings in the morning. then in the evening they will either get a series of meaty bones that are usually beef or lamb (from the local supermarket) or more chicken necks or wings. my OH is a bit nervous about feeding chicken frames so we stick to the necks and wings. four meals out of ten are the vegies meals which are mushed up vegies (we don't have a juicer so we blend ferociously with water), a raw egg and some natural yoghurt. (the egg and the yoghurt are added after the mushing) every day they will also get either a bowl of cooked pasta or rice or a ripe banana with yoghurt. (so we aren't trully on barf!! :rolleyes: ) they eat everything we give them. they were intially a bit slower on the vegies but not anymore. we don't currently give supplements - mainly because I haven't got my act together, but both dogs have great coats and are very active. They are both usually lean but not skinny although at the moment Nina seems to be going through a growth phase again and is a little underweight so we are sneaking her extra meat and chicken portions when Ted is distracted!!

thank you for so generously sharing your experience - you gave her a wonderful exit to the bridge. take care and thinking of you and Amy.

oh - that is very sad. look after yourself as well as Amy. it is very true - their time is much too short but they bring the joy of eighty years.

oh no! thinking of you and hope that she is better soon.

sorry - i didn't mean to disparage anyone. I don't even know the difference between classical and operant anything. I just thought it was a funny story because I've just begun doing a bit of reading on clicker training. And he looks so cute sitting proudly at the microwave.