TheCoat

The interesting thing with GSD's, the breeders who actually produce a genuine GSD that can do the work required of them as described in the breed standards are sold on main register, same with the Belgian Malinois. I am at a complete loss to understand what a GSD breeder desexing pups and selling on limited register of unproven lines are trying to protect The breeder is a registered breeder and they do come with papers, but they are not the show line variety. I get that this breeder wants to perserve this bloodline, hell i do too, hence why i wanted one from her, but i am not going to buy one from this breeder now as i just personally don't agree with desexing so young. I do not have bad intentions for any new dog i may get, i adore my dogs and they are a HUGE part of my life. Spoke with the breeder, they won't alter their terms. I am now looking elsewhere. Thank you very much to everyone who responded and gave me advice Very much appreciated If a GSD bloodline isn't either a promising show line or a potential sporting champion, police, military, security, search and rescue, protection dog who's lines are not sold desexed in working roles, what is the line good for that needs protecting? sounds like a breeder getting carried away with themselves to me?

You're absolutely right that the wording is vague, and I think that adds to what is already a huge problem. I thought (though) that the Vet Certificates were intended for any dog with fits the description "type" set out by the Government? The intention might only have been for AmStaffs, given that their description is so similar to PB's .... but the Government have been negligent in overlooking the fact that there are many dogs that fit their very loose description list of what constitutes "type". Unfortunately I don't gain a lot of confidence and assurance in the ability to rely on "intent". That needs "trust" and I wouldn't entrust my or anyone's dog to the Government. Perhaps I'm wrong in this. It's such a muddled mess the Govt have created. My understanding is they accept either an ANKC pedigree or vet certificate to confirm breed. In other words if a ranger came knocking and asked what breed of dog was in the backyard and you produced a vet certificate claiming it was a Stafford X Labrador, the ranger would be obliged to accept that and p*%% off :D

The interesting thing with GSD's, the breeders who actually produce a genuine GSD that can do the work required of them as described in the breed standards are sold on main register, same with the Belgian Malinois. I am at a complete loss to understand what a GSD breeder desexing pups and selling on limited register of unproven lines are trying to protect

I don't think that's the ONLY thing breeders are concerned about, but it has certainly had a lot of press lately. With so many looking to cash in on popular DD and rare breeds, of course it's wise for breeders to protect their puppies from falling into "those" hands. And you can't always tell... some people are too good at lying. I don't for one second believe that Saffionaire was only concerned about this, but it's part of the whole deal. EVERY breeder worth their weight is concerned not only for this reason above, but all of what you said TheCoat - the entire LIFE of the puppy. I think you made a very provocative statement TheCoat. My statement is that breeders who desex pups do so for their own benefit with the reason for doing so misconstude as being in the best interest of the dog. Given that the breeder can't control any of the basic factors in the dog's life like adequate food and water, whether the dog is breedable or not in comparison is of minor consequence in my opinion.

If the breeder cannot trust you with an entire pup, I wouldn't give them the opportunity to take my money. Their reason for early desexing will be purely generated by self interest anyway, not for concern of the pup's future health and proper development. I dont think this is a fair statement to generalize with. I have always been dead against it up until now, and at the moment I am telling ALL interstate buyers that my pups will only come desexed. WHY? Because so far no one can answer my question "What is crueler to the dog? Early desexing, or the possibility of ending up in irreverent hands and becoming a breeding machine?" Even if your first instinct is to say desexing, think about it. What if the 'girl' has problems during whelping, and she is left in the corner unassisted, and dies? What if she has 6 large litters and then contracts mastitis? Which then goes undiagnosed and she dies from it? It's not a black and white situation. I am not an easy person to buy a pup from, I ask a lot of questions and want a contract signed. Not because I don't trust people, but the opposite! Generally in my life I have been over trusting of people - and so many times I have been burned. And Im not just talking dogs, I'm talking life and dogs. So much so that it has come to me asking FRIENDS to sign things, not because I want this to be so, but because I have made a solemn promise that I will not alter on this forever more, not for the financial or wellbeing of myself, but for the puppies I breed and become eternally responsible for. As a breeder who cares about your dogs you a placed in a hard situation, there are your own expectations of yourself, your potential buyers, societies expectations, and endless journal articles to trawl through to decide which is the more ethical decision to make. Don't paint every breeder with the same brush. Breeding issues are not the only factors that surround ill treatment of a dog. How do you contract around making sure the dog is fed properly, is given warmth, shelter and love, the dog is exercised, is taken to the vet if unwell, the dog is trained and socialised, the dog is vaccinated, wormed, fleed with it's coat taken care of etc etc? So you are saying as long as the dog doesn't suffer any ill effects from breeding, the above doesn't matter?

If the breeder cannot trust you with an entire pup, I wouldn't give them the opportunity to take my money. Their reason for early desexing will be purely generated by self interest anyway, not for concern of the pup's future health and proper development. Geez its hard work being a breeder these days. Whilst I agree that early age desexing isnt the best way to go for numerous health reasons there has been a hell of a push on for breeders to do exactly that. Not because its self serving but because animal rights and animal welfare have very sucessful in pushing their propoganda and have breder believeing this is what should be done in order to prove they are responsible. You also have to understand that Breed specific legislaton is alive and well and this breed has also had more than its fair share of attention in this regard.peopel who take home puppies and have oops litters have the potential to not only have unwanted litters but to put dogs onthe ground which look like purebreds but which could damage the reputaion of the breed. So whilst I dont agree with breeders who do desex their puppies before they send them home I dont think its fair to say that its purely generated buy self interest Often breeders will have posted ontheir websites that they do desex and then they dont in order to ensure thiose apply for a pup understand they are going topet homes and not to be used for breeding- and there could be thousands of valid reasons which has bought the breeder to deciding puppies in a litter are not suitable for breeding. Hi Steve, Desexing a GSD pup at 8 weeks IMHO is sheer lunacy from the aspect of the dogs growth and development. Whether it's either trying to protect their bloodlines to looking responsible it amounts to self interest fuelling the decision to do so, it's not about what's best for the pup which concerns me.

I heard this too about AVA vets are not prepared to declare breed to save a dog, the very people able to help prevent the carnage under the new laws don't have the spine to take a risk that can't be proven anyway I find is a total copout? The law doesn't require the breed declaration has to be correct, it requires the dog to have the breed declared by a vet to the effect it's not a restricted breed. If a vet declared a Pitbull X as a Cocker Spaniel it satisfies the law, the dog has a vet certificate declaring the breed is not restricted, with that in hand from what I have read of the present law, an ACO has no legal grounds to seize the dog? Declaring one as a Cocker Spaniel is a silly example that would raise suspicion, but a vet has the power to declare the dog is not a restricted breed with a multitude of breeds to choose from that could produce a particular look, can't be proven otherwise by DNA so what's the problem?

I have experienced the opposite with a big guy, beard, tatoos, shorts, singlet, work boots with a flouro vest I often see walking a Toy Poodle thinking it must be his wife/GF's dog as he was a Rotty or Mastiff looking guy?. I met him once on the footpath and mentioned was the dog his wife's dog, and he said "oh no, his wife had a GSD the Poodle was his dog and he'd had Poodle's since childhood" It looked kind of cute, a big tough looking guy with this little white curly Poodle trotting along

If the breeder cannot trust you with an entire pup, I wouldn't give them the opportunity to take my money. Their reason for early desexing will be purely generated by self interest anyway, not for concern of the pup's future health and proper development.

It is a complicating technical hitch in the wording of the law that yes ..... could result in an unfortunate set of circumstances affecting ANKC papered "look-alikes". Is it likely? .... dunno. Is is possible? Yes. The mere fact that the dog can be seized and the owner then having to go through the legal hoops (and expense) of appeal is bad enough. Not to mention the stress on the animal impounded for the duration. Are Victorian dog-laws in a mess? Yes. Hi Erny, thanks for the clarification, I guess any dog of the wrong look can be challenged as to the authenticity of ANKC papers and seized whilst paperwork confirmation is pending which is most certainly a stressful situation for the dog and owners concerned. It's time to learn these laws and know where you stand what an animal control officer can and cannot do and under what conditions a dog can be seized or not?

Technically, not even all of those. The way the law is worded, the only pedigreed dog who may be exempted from Victoria's prohibitive laws by the production of an ANKC Breed Certificate is the AmStaff. All and any other ANKC dog that could possibly be interpreted by its looks to fit the description type as given by the law does not have the same right of passage. That's absolutely stupid. But that's the law. Is the ANKC active in doing something about that? And I agree - there ARE cross-breeds out there. Beautiful, loving, friendly and loyal companions to the human race. If they fit the "type" description put up by the Government, they're in trouble. I am new here and very concerned about the situation with the new laws and where things may be heading. Is it true that an ANKC papered dog of a breed with similar looks to a restricted breed can be seized regardless of the owner producing the dog's ANKC pedigree papers to prove what breed the dog is? There are a couple of breeds that have like appearance to restricted breeds other than the APBT so if an animal control officer suspected someone's dog was a Presa Canario for example and the owner produced ANKC papers to say the dog is of another non restricted pure breed, the officer can still seize the dog? Would that really stand up in questioning the breed when the owner has legitimate papers, a registered breeders confirmation etc versus an animal control officers personal opinion based on appearances only if an incident like this went to court?