TheCoat

Most of us are not doggy mind readers. How is someone who doesn't know the dog know it's not going to attack if it JUMPS THE FENCE. And there was a fairly recent case (in the last couple of years) of a dog breaking the front fence and then killing multiple SWF and biting the elderly owner. If the dogs weren't allowed to rush the fence - could that have been prevented? I'm pretty sure in the eyes of the media today: GSD = shaggy pitbull and Rottie = black and tan pitbull. :S The point I am making Mrs RB is that unless a dog makes contact and injures a person, it can't be recored as an attack to paint the correct picture of what's happening in the community. You can't have a set of attack stats that feature 100 dog attacks last month, 99 were dogs rushing fences and 1 was a bite causing injury, in effect there was 1 dog attack last month, not 100 is what I am talking about? People who run red lights have the potential to cause fatal accidents, but they don't gather up the red light infringements and record them as fatal accidents, they shouldn't IMHO record dog attacks unless a dog makes contact with someone and causes injury?

I've seen a few studies which have looked at this, mixed results. Yes, there are some studies on this along with linebreeding, locking in traits etc etc and I don't think anything concrete has been determined as yet regading genetic effects, but what I have been exposed to albiet from a micro section of a very large pool is that less pups showing early promise in a particular breeding or bloodline wash out over pups showing little promise improve?. There a some no doubt who do turn the corner and improve in maturity and some bloodlines can be a bit that way compared with others, but across a litter by 8 weeks the best driven pups I am a believer are most likely to stay that way than a low driven pup suddenly becoming the litter's most driven?. I have seen it done through training though with an average pup assigned to an excellent trainer and the litter pick trained by someone not overly flash only working at half it's ability where the lesser dog is out performing the genetically better dog but is stretched to the limit in the training process?

Not all dogs with a genetically high drive for what they are bred for show that drive a 6 weeks. They may show a potential for high drive but not necessarily express it. I have a dog that did not really look at sheep till he was 6 months old but when he "switched on" nothing was or is as important to him as sheep. He will work sheep with a bitch in season and ignore her while working - I've done it. His main problem is handler incompetence. From the time I got him as a pup I have been able to put him into "drive" with a tug toy, ball etc but it is nothing compared to his focus, desire and intensityto work as a sheepdog. It may have been different if I had been an agility or obedience competitor. It is not the same drive a working Mal but still an obsessive drive. His eldest pups are now just 18 months old and titled in 2 disciplines with very good results. Yes there are many variables, but personally I wouldn't hold my breath on a young pup that didn't display the desired drive in hope that it may come good in time over a pup that displayed on average what the good adults displayed at the same age unless of course it's trait factor occurring in a particular bloodline? I belong to groups and forums that have a lot of top international sheepdog trialers from different countries as members and the desire to see a sheepdog work at 6-8 weeks seems to be an Australian idiosyncracy. Overseas dog aren't often introduced to sheep till much older. It is nice to see that drive early but it is not always the case. There must be particular traits or drives in young pups bred for sheep herding consistant with the traits and drives the adults who turned out well showed as pups at the same age I mean, not necessarily herding or having sheep interest at 8 weeks? I read from what you are saying that a pup who appears crap in terms of drive and traits at 6/8 weeks can turn out well in the end, my point is that could be possible, but I wouldn't personally hang my hat on that concept to be true on all accounts and would select a pup myself that showed more promising traits and drives over a pup that showed nothing of value?

One of mine had a sensitive tum and was never really flash for the first 2 years of his life, when his stools hardened and you thought "oh great" everything is looking fine, he would get the runs again out of the blue? Did all the vet stuff, sort of found a couple of possibilities and was treated, but didn't fix it. What did fix things beautifully, he was previously on home cooked food as I have fed all my dogs for years and what was recommended to try was 2 meals a day, some kibble in the morning covered in plain yoghurt for the priobotics effect, only ever used Royal Canin and Pro Plan, but this feeding regime completely sorted him out and since being 2 years later, his stools have been perfect, really did the trick?.

Not all dogs with a genetically high drive for what they are bred for show that drive a 6 weeks. They may show a potential for high drive but not necessarily express it. I have a dog that did not really look at sheep till he was 6 months old but when he "switched on" nothing was or is as important to him as sheep. He will work sheep with a bitch in season and ignore her while working - I've done it. His main problem is handler incompetence. From the time I got him as a pup I have been able to put him into "drive" with a tug toy, ball etc but it is nothing compared to his focus, desire and intensityto work as a sheepdog. It may have been different if I had been an agility or obedience competitor. It is not the same drive a working Mal but still an obsessive drive. His eldest pups are now just 18 months old and titled in 2 disciplines with very good results. Yes there are many variables, but personally I wouldn't hold my breath on a young pup that didn't display the desired drive in hope that it may come good in time over a pup that displayed on average what the good adults displayed at the same age unless of course it's trait factor occurring in a particular bloodline?

Of course that goes without saying I totally agree, what I am talking about is that exceptional training can elevate a dog's performance beyond the level of a genetically better or higher driven dog lacking in training which can cloud a bloodline's true genetics.

What about a dog who initially shows disinterest or avoidance for a game of ball and, through training, ends up looking exactly the same as one who has been an obsessive retriever from 6 weeks? High, medium or low retrieve drive? Vickie to be honest, I think the path you describe tends to cause the breeding of dogs who are trait deficient, call me old school but a pup who showed avoidance or disinterest didn't have it in the blood and we wouldn't select that pup. As training methods evolve to generate drive into dogs who are genetically lacking in my belief contributes to the wrong dogs being bred based on training standards not nature. I have seen this happen with gun dogs over the years where a lot of hard work in training has show cased a dog into excellence which by nature was only average, then everyone wants a pup or a stud from that dog?. I like the raw abilty by preference for the future of breed performance. I answered as I saw it Vickie on my understanding of pure trait not training results. Yes, a dog may have enough drive to train for a good result, but IMHO doesn't have the level of drive that the obsessive has from 6 weeks, drive is ultimately genetic is my point?

What about a dog who initially shows disinterest or avoidance for a game of ball and, through training, ends up looking exactly the same as one who has been an obsessive retriever from 6 weeks? High, medium or low retrieve drive? Vickie to be honest, I think the path you describe tends to cause the breeding of dogs who are trait deficient, call me old school but a pup who showed avoidance or disinterest didn't have it in the blood and we wouldn't select that pup. As training methods evolve to generate drive into dogs who are genetically lacking in my belief contributes to the wrong dogs being bred based on training standards not nature. I have seen this happen with gun dogs over the years where a lot of hard work in training has show cased a dog into excellence which by nature was only average, then everyone wants a pup or a stud from that dog?. I like the raw abilty by preference for the future of breed performance.

That's when an untrained dog finds it's own value for drive satisfaction, like chasing and capturing the clothes flapping on the line with all your clothes etc ending up torn, ruined and spread over the back lawn. I bet the dog enjoyed every minute of it, but not a useful activity This is what I mean owning a high drive dog that isn't trained and left to it's own devices where a lower drive dog wouldn't look at the clothes on the line let alone tear them up? I have been down this path in my early days with high drive dogs, once in a rental property where we had sneaked a dog in through the back gate so to speak, often people ask me how I contain my dogs from gross misbehaviour and self drive satisfaction and I guess their drive I channel and teach them from day one is all done with me. I am leaning towards a working Malinois for my next dog, perhaps after that will be good test if my theory works?

I think we need to keep in mind that there are "many" drives a dog can display either high or low, the term high drive across the board in a dog's character IMHO is incorrect unless it's describing a given task, like a high drive agility dog would mean to me the dog has the preferred drives to do well at that, same as a high drive Schutzhund dog, has the preferred drives for that sport or application. Huski mentioned her scent hound is high drive in scenting I take it, but the high drive component of a scent hound is not the same high drive association one would describe for a security dog potential. Personally I relate the term "high drive" as meaning a natural ability to focus with sustainability and determination in what ever the drive or task is. A dog high in retrieve drive to me would be a dog that naturally brings a ball back, picks up the ball and races back to the handler over and over again with intense focus. A dog low in retrieve drive may bring the ball back once or twice then loose interest or break away into another task or behaviour half way through the game?

So the headline "dog attacks leap" is a bit of a leap itself. If they hadn't changed the counting method the number of attacks would have been about the same. A bit like the way employed people get counted eg if you do one hour of (unpaid) work, you're suddenly "employed" not "unemployed". Yes, we will see more GSD and Rotty "attacks" recorded from a bit of predisposition in the breed to move people on who don't belong, bit of fence running and some noise. I remember as a kid there was a bi colour GSD at the corner house up the road who used to jump the front fence and have a bark if we hung around on the corner, we were scared of him and moved on, but he never attacked anyone, just came out to express his view of the rules if we hung around at the front of his place?

Yeah, it can get a bit silly, someone around the corner from us had a ranger visit from complaints of her dog barking and banging at the gate which backs onto a walk way. The dog is a Rottweiler and people feared he may break down the gate and "get em" I guess, she's like WTF he can't get out no way, but she was read the "fear factor" routine that her dog could be declared dangerous rushing at a gate and you can't see the dog from the walk way at all, don't know how the complainants knew the dog was a Rotty?

Definitely! And depending on the training method (like anything) if you have a high drive dog, training can either be easy or near impossible. Personally I'd be bored if I had a low drive dog, I wouldn't enjoy it. Someone like my mum however is far better off with a moderately driven dog. I also agree with others who have said there is a difference between an energetic dog, and a dog with high drive. A lot of people become impressed with the obedience of well trained high drive dogs, a Border Collie a friend had a few years ago now was super to watch and he was a real handful through his training process at times, but people often thought if they get a working Border the great obedience comes with the pup and they end up with a dog through inadequate training they can't handle. If you like training dogs and enjoy the reward of achievement with dogs, high drive dogs are awesome in their motivation and intensity and I personally find low drive dogs the hardest to train?

And with someone who knows what they are doing, the dog won't trigger like that off the sight of the prey item anyway. Correct and confirms the necessity for training high drive dogs

There are also "many" drive components with different definitions or understandings dependant on the group which the breed or work application belongs. A dog high in prey drive for example is ideally the intensity and determination to chase and capture with the energy to sustain it. Most of us have played tug games with especially a young dog, a dog low in prey drive may only offer a moderate interesting in chasing and capturing a tug toy after extreme teasing then after a little tug, the dog gives up and looses interest. A dog high in prey drive, the more teasing with a tug toy, the higher the intesity the dog has to catch it to point the dog can throw it's self with indiscriminant snapping lunges to capture the prey. A dog high in prey drive once learning the game of chasing a ball from a behaviour perspective does not react to seeing you with a ball anticipating a game in a moderately excited manner, the dog can go totally ape at the sight of a ball, lunging, barking, snapping, untrained a total nightmare of gross uncontrollable misbehaviour that the average dog owner can't handle or know where to start in gaining behavioural control of the dog, the dog then becomes a nuisence which extends into other forms of poor behaviour of a drive origin. Just a brief example of what behaviour a dog high in prey drive can exhibit and how some owners of this type of dog can't handle the intensity to the point of surrendering the dog when the intensity becomes beyond the owners control.

I don't see why responsible owners should need to desex their dogs. AKNC aren't law makers or the standard and many people will disagree with that idea. People who wish to breed should require licensing, education, a clear breeding path, code of ethics and the list goes on. This needs to start with the banning of pet sales at pet stores, ridding australia of puppy mills, including registered ones. Looks like we agree on two things, there is hope yet I don't know that keeping entire dogs contributes largely to litters bred by accident, I am thinking most BYB's are purposely bred. There would be literally thousands upon thousands of especially entire males that have never contributed to a litter, the last male I desexed was in 1983, one I did stud a few times in registered breeding programs, but none of my others have ever been bred accidently or otherwise. I prefer entire males especially in evaluation of health and character in the bloodline over a period of time without the effects of desexing causing secondary issues to cloud the result. One of my males is a breeders alternative line or newer bloodline used for monitoring purposes and perhaps a stud, the agreement terms with him was "not" to be desexed. I have been asked numerous times over the years to stud a male in a BYB and crossbreed program, good luck

I don't think so. Registered breeders breed openly and transparently. Their choices are recorded for anyone to see, whether they turned out to be good choices or poor. Breeders of unregistered dogs who do not record pedigree are just hiding their activities, nobody knows what lines are in their dogs and those dogs are useless for future breeding programs. They are not the same kind of breeders as registered breeders at all, and it doesn't matter what their philosophy is if the dogs they produce have unknown and unregistered parentage, their lines have no future. I agree, thank you :D

Ok, you breed unregistered working dogs, may I ask what for? I know people do this and claim to have these awesome dogs that no purebreed can fulfill, like the dairy farmer we know had a generation of home brew crossbreeds until he was shown a Belgian Malinois trained on the job that worked out better than his crossbreeds. I don't totally believe these crossbreed working dogs are essential and perhaps in the eyes of the beholder?

No Coat, I am saying that people like you will say any dog that looks like a pitbull could not be an amstaff or staffy unless it's ANKC rego'd. A bit hard to mistake a rotti as a pitbull regardless whether is rego'd or not. The fact is that there are many unregistered amstaffs, all of which you will happily see killed under legislation because they had the misfortune to be born without papers. My point is, dogs that look like restricted breeds need to be met with caution in terms of aquiring them and people need to be more responsible in their choices which to me is a simple exercise, don't buy unregistered Bull breeds and crossbreeds of Bull appearance then your dog won't be seized which is common sense. There is no way I would raise a dog and love it knowing the breed is skating on thin ice to be in a position where it could be taken from me and the way to avoid that as I said, don't buy them in the first place, don't support BYB's, buy from registered breeders. A friend a couple of months ago found some supposed Staffy pups in a pet shop and asked my opinion, what I advised her was if she wanted a Staffy I would help her get a papered one from a registered breeder, that she did and all is good, she doesn't have to worry about rangers knocking suspecting her dog is a Pitbull and loose her dog to BSL, make sense???. People breed mongrels in the back yard and play on the compassion of dog lovers to provide a home for their products, sad as it is that lives are wasted in these type of breeding programs, this is not in my opinion as the right way to get a dog, I don't support BYB's and the sooner they make the random breeding of unregistered dogs illegal, the better, dog breeding is a technical process that should be left to people with the passion and expertise to do so who are the people I support when it comes down to adding a dog to the family. It's about the rights of an animal not just about what we think we should do because of BSL. Yes caution should be sort from people who just want a dog, buy something else unless you really want a bull breed and are prepared to put in the work. However this leaves thousands of dogs without a voice, anti BSL people are not only the voice for apbt but for any dog that looks like one. On another matter, as i said before many rego'd breeders aren't in it for the long haul, proven track records, many many many litters, breeding for function not just looks or colour is what it takes.. many breeders fall short. Bull breeds suffer from people who want to make a difference but invariably suffer from over breeding, over representation in pounds and now being PTS like never before. Remember it is society that is at fault. not dogs. Geo, dog breeding IMHO is out of control and needs to be regulated, too many doggy lives are needlessly born and destined to be cut short by over supply, it is a society fault, the buggers who randomly breed them are the people I would personally address? It's totally senseless in my way of thinking that just anyone is allowed to breed dogs with any breed mix they can get their hands on, I think it's totally wrong and the cause of most of the problems. I would like to see a licence requirement to breed dogs and a hefty fine if you get caught breeding without one, along with the licence a set of rules, health standards, hip and elbow exrays etc etc, make it too hard for morons to breed dogs, make it too much hassle for the random BYB to be bothered with it, something along those lines as the first step in proactively addressing the situation??.

Personally I think unless someone can provide evidence of an attack, bites, broken flesh etc, anything else is a load of crap statistically. I was rushed at by a young Labrador a couple of weeks ago, she was off leash, owners didn't see me coming and I was severely licked trying to grab her collar for the owners to round her up, owners were at fault which I pointed out to them, but it's hardly a dog attack?

I agree that a lot of people buying high drive dogs are unaware of what is required to own them without the dog becoming a major nuisence in the home and they surrender them because they can no longer handle or put up with their intensity or misbehaviour. High drive dogs are easy to train and produce fantastic obedience in the finished product, but you have to be committed to train and exercise them above all else where a low drive innactive dog is often better suited to some people's lifestyle. People who like a low drive dog that is happy to lounge around have a bit of an odd play with an occassional walk would be driven bonkers with a high drive dog and should never have one IMHO.

I am aware of people breeding working crossbreeds, farm, hunting dogs etc where they have generations of their home brew that provides traits suitable for their working application, but I am talking about the average crossbreed mongrel supplied in great quantities by the BYB. But the fact is if you are just crossbreeding random dogs as the BYB's do, there is no chance of producing any particular traits or quality when eveything bred is of unknown parentage is what I am getting at. Why would anyone want to become an expert for an example breeding Staffy X Labrador pets, there is no point to it?

Unfortunate dogs owned by irresponsible owners unwilling to take the time to socialise and train their dogs to be good canine citizens.... Your hatred of crossbreeds sickens me and makes you look a bigot! It's absolute nonesense to suggest that the default behaviour of dogs poorly raised is aggression, the dog has to have a predisposition for it in the first place. The are plenty of dogs poorly raised and not all go out on attacking rampages when unsupervised is my point. No, I don't like crossbreed dogs being the reason I joined a purebreed forum

Come on Coat, how many "breeders" stay in the game long enough to say they make an actual difference to the disposition of a breed as a whole? many just do what it takes to get their championship points, get a website, breed a few litters then it all gets too hard. Dogs bite for a lot of different reasons, ridding dogs of fear aggression or their pre disposition to DA, isn't as simple as you make it sound. People forget the same breeders that breed for temprement also provide loving homes, training and socialising. Unless your dog has escaped, you can only guess how it would behave without you. I'm sure the owners of this dog didn't think this would happen either. Take the Staffy for example, there is 538 registered breeders listed on the DOL home page, now I will absolutely guarantee in that 538 listed, there will be Stafford breeders who know them inside and out and can supply dogs of good temperament, infact I know 3 Stafford breeders who's dogs are excellent with generations of providing quality pups, not all breed enthusiasts breeders are fools, there is one Stafford breeder I know who can name dogs in a pedigree renowned for producing dog aggression in the progeny, regardless, there is more opportunity attaining the right temperament from people who know their breed than the BYB who knows nothing more than a male and female makes puppies?

Yet another dumb comment. If you think pure breed = safety then you're sadly mistaken!! Show us the attack stats for pure breed ANKC papered dogs supplied by registered breeders then compare that with BYB crossbreed involvement, that I think would be an interesting viewing? If you think stats care about ANKC rego (along with the general public or journo's who report on attacks) then you're again sadly mistaken. I am sure it would be less as you imply, however it doesn't make a dog safe. It can make a dog safe with a better breeding and breeding out fear biters and predisposition to aggression. Dogs escaping the yard and roaming in this case isn't the default behaviour for all dogs to go on an attacking rampage, in fact it would be interseting also to here people's opinion if they think their dog would attack people randomly on the street if they escaped the yard, I know mine wouldn't Also you'll find that a majority of pedigree owned dogs have owners who put in the time, effort and love in training and keeping them secure. So 1. Very rarely would you find a beloved pet roaming, unless it played escape artist, which sometimes happens. Or 2. If it did roam, it would be trained not to maul. Some people buy these types of cross breeds cheap and train them specifically to be attack / guard dogs, and don't particularly give 2 shits about whether they're contained or not. It's not only 'pit bulls' that are dangeous, there are other dogs that can be just as dangeous due to neglect and lack of training. The news papers need to stop being gossip magazines and start printing facts. I agree, so where does the problem orginate?, my opinion is the people involved in random breedings and the supply of such dogs and the ease at which they are attainable. The people who don't give a shit about training and containing their dogs would be lucky that any ethical and registered breeder would sell them one, neither would these people jump through hoops and pay the money required for a well bred dog, the irresponsible without a dog is the safer plan in the control of needless attacks IMHO?