TheCoat

Most of us are not doggy mind readers. How is someone who doesn't know the dog know it's not going to attack if it JUMPS THE FENCE. And there was a fairly recent case (in the last couple of years) of a dog breaking the front fence and then killing multiple SWF and biting the elderly owner. If the dogs weren't allowed to rush the fence - could that have been prevented? I'm pretty sure in the eyes of the media today: GSD = shaggy pitbull and Rottie = black and tan pitbull. :S The point I am making Mrs RB is that unless a dog makes contact and injures a person, it can't be recored as an attack to paint the correct picture of what's happening in the community. You can't have a set of attack stats that feature 100 dog attacks last month, 99 were dogs rushing fences and 1 was a bite causing injury, in effect there was 1 dog attack last month, not 100 is what I am talking about? People who run red lights have the potential to cause fatal accidents, but they don't gather up the red light infringements and record them as fatal accidents, they shouldn't IMHO record dog attacks unless a dog makes contact with someone and causes injury?

I've seen a few studies which have looked at this, mixed results. Yes, there are some studies on this along with linebreeding, locking in traits etc etc and I don't think anything concrete has been determined as yet regading genetic effects, but what I have been exposed to albiet from a micro section of a very large pool is that less pups showing early promise in a particular breeding or bloodline wash out over pups showing little promise improve?. There a some no doubt who do turn the corner and improve in maturity and some bloodlines can be a bit that way compared with others, but across a litter by 8 weeks the best driven pups I am a believer are most likely to stay that way than a low driven pup suddenly becoming the litter's most driven?. I have seen it done through training though with an average pup assigned to an excellent trainer and the litter pick trained by someone not overly flash only working at half it's ability where the lesser dog is out performing the genetically better dog but is stretched to the limit in the training process?

Not all dogs with a genetically high drive for what they are bred for show that drive a 6 weeks. They may show a potential for high drive but not necessarily express it. I have a dog that did not really look at sheep till he was 6 months old but when he "switched on" nothing was or is as important to him as sheep. He will work sheep with a bitch in season and ignore her while working - I've done it. His main problem is handler incompetence. From the time I got him as a pup I have been able to put him into "drive" with a tug toy, ball etc but it is nothing compared to his focus, desire and intensityto work as a sheepdog. It may have been different if I had been an agility or obedience competitor. It is not the same drive a working Mal but still an obsessive drive. His eldest pups are now just 18 months old and titled in 2 disciplines with very good results. Yes there are many variables, but personally I wouldn't hold my breath on a young pup that didn't display the desired drive in hope that it may come good in time over a pup that displayed on average what the good adults displayed at the same age unless of course it's trait factor occurring in a particular bloodline? I belong to groups and forums that have a lot of top international sheepdog trialers from different countries as members and the desire to see a sheepdog work at 6-8 weeks seems to be an Australian idiosyncracy. Overseas dog aren't often introduced to sheep till much older. It is nice to see that drive early but it is not always the case. There must be particular traits or drives in young pups bred for sheep herding consistant with the traits and drives the adults who turned out well showed as pups at the same age I mean, not necessarily herding or having sheep interest at 8 weeks? I read from what you are saying that a pup who appears crap in terms of drive and traits at 6/8 weeks can turn out well in the end, my point is that could be possible, but I wouldn't personally hang my hat on that concept to be true on all accounts and would select a pup myself that showed more promising traits and drives over a pup that showed nothing of value?

One of mine had a sensitive tum and was never really flash for the first 2 years of his life, when his stools hardened and you thought "oh great" everything is looking fine, he would get the runs again out of the blue? Did all the vet stuff, sort of found a couple of possibilities and was treated, but didn't fix it. What did fix things beautifully, he was previously on home cooked food as I have fed all my dogs for years and what was recommended to try was 2 meals a day, some kibble in the morning covered in plain yoghurt for the priobotics effect, only ever used Royal Canin and Pro Plan, but this feeding regime completely sorted him out and since being 2 years later, his stools have been perfect, really did the trick?.

Not all dogs with a genetically high drive for what they are bred for show that drive a 6 weeks. They may show a potential for high drive but not necessarily express it. I have a dog that did not really look at sheep till he was 6 months old but when he "switched on" nothing was or is as important to him as sheep. He will work sheep with a bitch in season and ignore her while working - I've done it. His main problem is handler incompetence. From the time I got him as a pup I have been able to put him into "drive" with a tug toy, ball etc but it is nothing compared to his focus, desire and intensityto work as a sheepdog. It may have been different if I had been an agility or obedience competitor. It is not the same drive a working Mal but still an obsessive drive. His eldest pups are now just 18 months old and titled in 2 disciplines with very good results. Yes there are many variables, but personally I wouldn't hold my breath on a young pup that didn't display the desired drive in hope that it may come good in time over a pup that displayed on average what the good adults displayed at the same age unless of course it's trait factor occurring in a particular bloodline?

Of course that goes without saying I totally agree, what I am talking about is that exceptional training can elevate a dog's performance beyond the level of a genetically better or higher driven dog lacking in training which can cloud a bloodline's true genetics.

What about a dog who initially shows disinterest or avoidance for a game of ball and, through training, ends up looking exactly the same as one who has been an obsessive retriever from 6 weeks? High, medium or low retrieve drive? Vickie to be honest, I think the path you describe tends to cause the breeding of dogs who are trait deficient, call me old school but a pup who showed avoidance or disinterest didn't have it in the blood and we wouldn't select that pup. As training methods evolve to generate drive into dogs who are genetically lacking in my belief contributes to the wrong dogs being bred based on training standards not nature. I have seen this happen with gun dogs over the years where a lot of hard work in training has show cased a dog into excellence which by nature was only average, then everyone wants a pup or a stud from that dog?. I like the raw abilty by preference for the future of breed performance. I answered as I saw it Vickie on my understanding of pure trait not training results. Yes, a dog may have enough drive to train for a good result, but IMHO doesn't have the level of drive that the obsessive has from 6 weeks, drive is ultimately genetic is my point?

What about a dog who initially shows disinterest or avoidance for a game of ball and, through training, ends up looking exactly the same as one who has been an obsessive retriever from 6 weeks? High, medium or low retrieve drive? Vickie to be honest, I think the path you describe tends to cause the breeding of dogs who are trait deficient, call me old school but a pup who showed avoidance or disinterest didn't have it in the blood and we wouldn't select that pup. As training methods evolve to generate drive into dogs who are genetically lacking in my belief contributes to the wrong dogs being bred based on training standards not nature. I have seen this happen with gun dogs over the years where a lot of hard work in training has show cased a dog into excellence which by nature was only average, then everyone wants a pup or a stud from that dog?. I like the raw abilty by preference for the future of breed performance.

That's when an untrained dog finds it's own value for drive satisfaction, like chasing and capturing the clothes flapping on the line with all your clothes etc ending up torn, ruined and spread over the back lawn. I bet the dog enjoyed every minute of it, but not a useful activity This is what I mean owning a high drive dog that isn't trained and left to it's own devices where a lower drive dog wouldn't look at the clothes on the line let alone tear them up? I have been down this path in my early days with high drive dogs, once in a rental property where we had sneaked a dog in through the back gate so to speak, often people ask me how I contain my dogs from gross misbehaviour and self drive satisfaction and I guess their drive I channel and teach them from day one is all done with me. I am leaning towards a working Malinois for my next dog, perhaps after that will be good test if my theory works?

I think we need to keep in mind that there are "many" drives a dog can display either high or low, the term high drive across the board in a dog's character IMHO is incorrect unless it's describing a given task, like a high drive agility dog would mean to me the dog has the preferred drives to do well at that, same as a high drive Schutzhund dog, has the preferred drives for that sport or application. Huski mentioned her scent hound is high drive in scenting I take it, but the high drive component of a scent hound is not the same high drive association one would describe for a security dog potential. Personally I relate the term "high drive" as meaning a natural ability to focus with sustainability and determination in what ever the drive or task is. A dog high in retrieve drive to me would be a dog that naturally brings a ball back, picks up the ball and races back to the handler over and over again with intense focus. A dog low in retrieve drive may bring the ball back once or twice then loose interest or break away into another task or behaviour half way through the game?

So the headline "dog attacks leap" is a bit of a leap itself. If they hadn't changed the counting method the number of attacks would have been about the same. A bit like the way employed people get counted eg if you do one hour of (unpaid) work, you're suddenly "employed" not "unemployed". Yes, we will see more GSD and Rotty "attacks" recorded from a bit of predisposition in the breed to move people on who don't belong, bit of fence running and some noise. I remember as a kid there was a bi colour GSD at the corner house up the road who used to jump the front fence and have a bark if we hung around on the corner, we were scared of him and moved on, but he never attacked anyone, just came out to express his view of the rules if we hung around at the front of his place?

Yeah, it can get a bit silly, someone around the corner from us had a ranger visit from complaints of her dog barking and banging at the gate which backs onto a walk way. The dog is a Rottweiler and people feared he may break down the gate and "get em" I guess, she's like WTF he can't get out no way, but she was read the "fear factor" routine that her dog could be declared dangerous rushing at a gate and you can't see the dog from the walk way at all, don't know how the complainants knew the dog was a Rotty?

Definitely! And depending on the training method (like anything) if you have a high drive dog, training can either be easy or near impossible. Personally I'd be bored if I had a low drive dog, I wouldn't enjoy it. Someone like my mum however is far better off with a moderately driven dog. I also agree with others who have said there is a difference between an energetic dog, and a dog with high drive. A lot of people become impressed with the obedience of well trained high drive dogs, a Border Collie a friend had a few years ago now was super to watch and he was a real handful through his training process at times, but people often thought if they get a working Border the great obedience comes with the pup and they end up with a dog through inadequate training they can't handle. If you like training dogs and enjoy the reward of achievement with dogs, high drive dogs are awesome in their motivation and intensity and I personally find low drive dogs the hardest to train?

And with someone who knows what they are doing, the dog won't trigger like that off the sight of the prey item anyway. Correct and confirms the necessity for training high drive dogs

There are also "many" drive components with different definitions or understandings dependant on the group which the breed or work application belongs. A dog high in prey drive for example is ideally the intensity and determination to chase and capture with the energy to sustain it. Most of us have played tug games with especially a young dog, a dog low in prey drive may only offer a moderate interesting in chasing and capturing a tug toy after extreme teasing then after a little tug, the dog gives up and looses interest. A dog high in prey drive, the more teasing with a tug toy, the higher the intesity the dog has to catch it to point the dog can throw it's self with indiscriminant snapping lunges to capture the prey. A dog high in prey drive once learning the game of chasing a ball from a behaviour perspective does not react to seeing you with a ball anticipating a game in a moderately excited manner, the dog can go totally ape at the sight of a ball, lunging, barking, snapping, untrained a total nightmare of gross uncontrollable misbehaviour that the average dog owner can't handle or know where to start in gaining behavioural control of the dog, the dog then becomes a nuisence which extends into other forms of poor behaviour of a drive origin. Just a brief example of what behaviour a dog high in prey drive can exhibit and how some owners of this type of dog can't handle the intensity to the point of surrendering the dog when the intensity becomes beyond the owners control.