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This is hilarious! Amazing; the girl runs and the dog runs... I am obviously laughing at my own ignorance - I have no idea what running contacts is. Hope it's worth 5k though. ;)

Sorry, what's LLW?

Now, delving into the forbidden... Is there a value in using electronic collars to teach not pulling on the lead?

I've been working on TOT for the last few days, and my dog is responding nicely. I taught her earlier to wait for permission when I feed her. Now she can sit for about 30 seconds looking at me until I say "yes" and "ok". Mind you, sometimes she bolts to the bowl after "yes", but she is only four months old, and I am trying not to demand too much too soon.

I must say, I would be very, VERY happy getting my Bull Terrier to 10% of the level on the video, whatever the method.

Many police dogs I have seen in real life or on TV shows do not show amazing training standards. For example many of them pull on the lead to the extent that the handler has to use his full strength to keep the dog around. So Koehler or not, this argument is not very strong.

There are a lot of comments that relate to obedience trials. My goal, on the other hand, does not include participating in competition. I don't care how "clean" the dog heels or sits. I would be happy if my dog heels within a meter from me. Sure, I want the dog to be enjoy walks and hikes with me. A question: is maintaining the dog's focus for 10 minutes of ring action the same as getting him to pay attention for several hours of the walk?

All right then. If I want to train the dog myself, and if it is not Koehler, for basic obedience, what books or videos would you recommend?

I agree 100% with your post. I do realise that this dog is most likely very different from the previous one. The most important lesson I learned is that dog owners generally know much less about dog training than they think. I don't have the confidence, qualifications and experience to train dogs. I want to find a coach whom I trust,so that there is no temptation to second-guess what he does or recommends. Imagine questioning your doctor's prescriptions every time, it would be a nightmare! I love my dog (I had many dogs before) and I want to enjoy training and spending time with her. So that's what I am actually doing, looking for a good coach. I will definitely contact K9Pro, as I am in Sydney.

How?

and altho it still hates kids, it is prevented from lunging ..You haven't taught this dog to see kids in a different light - you've not stopped the aggression, just stopped the action.Dog was corrected for the action, not the thought/feeling I think it is close to 70% of all drivers that think that speed limits are stupid and unnecessary. Yet, the way to get the drivers to comply with the rule is based on correction, escalating with the degree and the number of violations. The thinking is the same (hate the speed limit, dammit!), but the action is reinforced. The result - improved safety for the road participants. In the meantime the media and the police can go on to educating drivers and promoting better driving habits on conscious level. One does not exclude the other.

Using punishment in the same situation leads to the same outcome. He will behave as long as he gets what he wants, to avoid the punishment. If you think rewards should be used that way, you will have a very poor outcome and punishment will be your only option. Kids and dogs can be fairly creative at solving problems, finding ways to get what they want and avoiding punishment is like a sport to some of them. Rewards, used correctly, bring it all to the front under your terms. The phrase in bold doesn't make any sense: the purpose of punishment is to get him to behave while not getting what he wants. Do you mind to illustrate how would you use rewards in my example?

Kippy summarised the thread quite well. I don't want to hurt my dog. I do not like to jerk the leash, yell or do other unpleasant things. I am all for positive methods and ancouragement and reward. However, I also want to be able to get results when positive methods hit the wall. By results I mean companion dog that I can take for a walk without worrying about her attacking a child or running across the road. My logic extrapolates from raising children. You know how children spell "love"? "T-I-M-E"! So I spend a lot of time with them: play, talk, listen, walk etc. A Encouragement and reward are the key. However, some things are off limits. For example, if a kid starts a tantrum in a shop because he wants a toy - he will be punished: no TV for three days or something along the lines. If he repeats the behavior - he will be smacked with sufficient intensity, so that next time he starts thinking of repeating the exercise me looking at him will get the idea out of his head. Using rewards in this situation is nothing more than a blackmail: he will behave as long as he gets what he wants. No, certain thing are non-negotiable. Carrot and stick, as old as the world itself. Obviously, I also have many obligations in this relationship. And guess what, we are still great buddies! I love and respect him and he loves and respects me. I think if I treat my dog the same way I treat my kids, this dog's life is not too bad.

What's martingale, if you don't mind me asking?

Depends how you define welfare. My dog is dead, how does that fit in? I guess we have a different view of welfare. I can tell you that my dog would have a miserable existance if I hit her with a belt even once. Do you ever correct your dog? If yes - how?

Depends how you define welfare. My dog is dead, how does that fit in? Edit: I jumped in before reading replies. I disagree that killing is better.

My dog was under two coaches and one behaviorist. I think it is a decent effort. Your last sentence basically summarises it. That's why I am doing my own research so I can filter out incompetent trainers for whom being politically correct is more important than getting results.

I didn't, the "hiding" was related to children, not dogs, and just as an illustration. Poor choice of words on my part.

Who suggested giving a dog a hiding?

I am wondering how she was able to do this ? Did you let her free-run because she was such a pain to walk on lead? Very sad. Only let her off the lead occasionally and only in the dog park. She was trying to jump at cars, obviously I wouldn't let her do it.

Kelpie-i, it wasn't the aggression in its pure sense. Let me give you an example. She would run after a jogger or a cyclist and bite their hands. She would jump at cars passing by. She could not normally play with other dogs: the intensity was the same with small poodles as it was with staffies or German Sheppards. She was pulling on the leash (including the Gentle Leader), so that after every walk my left shoulder was hrobbing. She was a rather large American Bulldog and could cause considerable damage. The last straw was her going after a person carrying a small poodle, biting him on the hand. Thankfully, the person turned out to be a dog coach (and his wife a dog behaviorist) and was very understanding. After this episode we eventually decided to put her down, which was very traumatic. Her behavior was attributed to anxiety. I am not exclusively blaming coaches and the behaviorist working with her, as the dog probably had problems all along. My problem is that - in my opinion - not all possible methods were used with her. From what I have read e-collar could solve some of the problems. I am not going to the opposite extreme and be nasty to my dog (which I adore), I just want to find a coach who uses all modalities of training. I am not aiming at winning obedience competitions with my Bull Terrier, I want her to reliably perform important commands, so that I can take her for a walk and not be paranoid all the time that she will scare a child or chase a cat across a busy road.

Please don't take the word out of context. I mean the use of corrections for dogs, not punishment execution style.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. The main reason I am asking about koehler's method is that I want to get an idea about as many methods as possible before settling on something definite. I think the best training system is the one you're comfortable with. My miniature Bull Terrier is a sweet little puppy, 3.5 months old. At this stage I am training her using mostly games, treats and praise. From the age of about 6 months I want to start a structured program that includes all methods of conditioning, reward and correction. I want to make one thing clear: corrections do not equal abuse or cruelty. Frankly, how many parents have never physically punished their kids? However, occasional "hiding" does not mean physical abuse. Corrections should not be the substitute for a properly administered program. The same is true for e-collars: they should be used in addition to the traditional training, and only when required.

The result of motivational/positive methods - delivered by two coaches and one dog behaviorist - with my previous dog resulted in her being put down, due to aggression. One coach, a celebrity mind you, said that the dog will never be let off the leash in her life, no matter how much training we put into her. This, in my opinion, (and having to eventually kill the dog) is more cruel than using corrections. in spite of the fact that the behaviorist could not do anything with the dog, when I asked her about electronic collar she firmly stated that she will report me to authorities if she finds out I use one. I am not set on any particular system, I just want to get "both sides of the story", to see results of something different from what could not prevent my dog from being put down. What got my interest is the avalanche of good reviews of Koehler's book on the Amazon, as well as reviews relating to the use of electronic collars. I believe Sit Means Sit school in the USA, run by Fred Hassen, is based on Koehler's method. Apparently they have a franchise in Brisbane.

Does anybody know a coach in Sydney area who uses Koehler's training system?