Greyt

100% agree and people would still bet on the outcome and dogs would still be disposed of if they didn't win and people would still breed trying to find "the one" So just to be clear, you think that the breed is sustainable beyond the current racing industry? Beyond the sustainability of the breed, there is is nothing to suggest (is there?) that if their was an amateur sport, about 16000 dogs would be bred per year, upwards of 12000 would be killed per year. Breeders would not be able to command anywhere near the money for a good dog that they can now, mating fees would decline tremendously, there wouldn't be firms specialising in greyhound transport, supplements, vet care, er, disposal etc, etc. And their wouldn't be syndicates either. I don't think you would find too many corporate CEO's hosting their clients at the local races either...., "We will have the corporate Esky and picnic table available at your disposal"... As to betting, it will not be organised, state sanctioned betting and joe public will not be able to participate.. no tab's, no dot .coms, no televised races etc. How this leads to your dog disposal scenario, I don't know but if anything, I suspect that disposal may change in practice from killing to re-homing.

Some people in this thread think that if gambling is taken away, greyhound racing will "move underground", "like dog fighting". I suggest it will not. Just as owners can race any dog they want now, so they would be able to if gambling is taken away. It is just that the scale would shrink to minuscule levels and it would be for fun or prestige. If they could make it happen, I would imagine that owner/trainers that love their dogs would enjoy being able to continue watching their dogs compete. @Sheena, there are some dogs that have poor confirmation that wouldn't make it to sale and then there are those that fail along the way from breaking-in to trials that also never make it to the track

The sport will not go underground in any big way if it is banned. As an entertainment product, it is already in serious decline and with the public relations catastrophe it now faces, the decline - without any intervention by the government - will only accelerate. Take away wealthy benefactors, sponsors, TV, TAB betting and government money and have the general public abhorred by the practices that go in and you do not have much of an offering. You definitely do not have an outlet for over breeding some 15,000 dogs per year and the subsequent killing that occurs as a result. Racing would simply become an amateur activity like any other dog sport is today. If I owned a vet surgery that specialised in Greyhounds now, or a transport company or a food or supplement company or a breaking in facility, I would be looking around for other opportunities.

They could also have a carbon credit type scheme where there is a fixed amount of credits available for breeders that limit the overall number of dogs produced each year.. This could be linked to welfare outcomes so it would be cheaper for a breeder to buy credits if their previous litters had good welfare outcomes and more expensive if they had bad outcomes or were not discoverable.

I think it will be a domino effect.. like Labore has alluded to. 1 state will fall and the others will slowly follow. Labor is most likely to be in government when this happens but other factors could precede the demise such as racing TV pulling out or more sponsors. Little Gifts probably touched on the simplest, most obvious and most effective "solution" of all. Tie all government funding of the industry to dog welfare outcomes.

@HW, the GAP Vic figures are very impressive. Job well done!

@ Steve, The public want an end to the killing, not a codification of it. Read the comments on smh.com.au or similar. They are along the lines of stop the over breeding, end the cruelly stop the killing, shut the industry down.

One group that I have fostered for want to see the end of the destruction of so many healthy dogs every year. They work with a lot of trainers to take dogs but advocate vigorously to reduce the killing. They never tried to "convert" me in any way and were appreciative of the assistance I could lend. They lose money personally, work tirelessly to provide homes for dogs and go way above and beyond in every way you can imagine like most in rescue. Politically, they *probably feel* (my own analysis) that GAP is an instrument of the racing industry and therefore is inadequately equipped to thoroughly advocate for the welfare of the breed ie, the public messages GAP convey are very restricted due to receiving funding from the industry.

No I don't. Why would you say I do? I believe that killing 12,000+ healthy, vigorous, beautiful dogs every year because gambling exists is hideous. The differences in other dog sports/showing are obvious. Typically, for other breeds: Dogs are bred roughly in numbers that meet demand - dogs are sold or shown or go into dog sports- dogs that don't make it go to pet homes For Greyhounds Dogs are rampantly over bred - dogs that show good confirmation or promising speed are sold, those that do not are killed, the process is repeated through the racing career cycle, ie, far too many dogs that can't win or placehave their lives ended prematurely. It is estimated that only 1 in 15 are re-homed. 14 in 15 healthy pure bred dogs are killed. And this happens year in and year out. If you take away state sanctioned gambling on Greyhounds, you don't have the same numbers bred and subsequently killed each year.

@M-J, It would be nice to think that all ex-racers and those that never made it to the track could be adopted. Greyhound rescues and GAPs have been around for years and last year it is estimated that about 1,000 were saved and upwards of 12,000 were destroyed. The stark reality is that healthy greyhounds are PTS in vast numbers everywhere in the world where greyhound betting is legal. Some figures suggest that up to 90% of the dogs are re-homed in the US, a much better result than Australia. They have 35+ States that can take dogs where racing is banned and vastly superior public awareness of the issues. As Mita states, Australia is the 3rd largest breeder of Greyhounds in the world but we have a small population so the numbers do not stack up.

HazyWal, I actually hate hysteria and I am mortified and sickened by the turn of events. This from the Courier Mail: POLICE say some of the 55 greyhounds found in a mass grave in Bundaberg could have been beaten to death as investigators warn they have barely scratched the surface in exposing the greyhound racing industry’s dirty practices. The Joint Greyhound Racing Inquiry Task Force, set up to investigate live baiting allegations uncovered by ABC’s Four Corners in February, has arrested 10 people on more than 30 charges in the past six weeks but says the problems already uncovered were just the tip of the iceberg. A 0.22 calibre rifle and baseball bat were allegedly seized at the home of a Bundaberg greyhound trainer, with bullet casings found alongside the carcasses matching the calibre of the gun, police said. DOGS DUMPED: Greyhound trainer charged FALLOUT: Top official quits with warning to industry A 64-year-old woman and her 71-year-old partner have both been charged with one count of unlawfully possessing a firearm. Police say some of the 55 carcasses found at a rural Coonarr property, located 30 minutes from the woman’s home, appeared to have been shot, while others had caved-in heads, consistent with being hit. Thanks for correcting me. The baseball bat which may have been used to bash some of the dogs skulls in was seized from the award winning registered trainer's home, not from the mass grave. http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/some-of-the-55-greyhounds-in-mass-grave-may-have-been-beaten-to-death/story-fnn8dlfs-1227290667868

Well I think if you take out the gambling not that much would change for the dogs - it wouldnt be such a big spectator sport but just as tens of thousands participate in other dog sports which are not normally on the tab each week you would still get sponsors and prize money and the feelings of breeding , training and winning. They will still chuck out the dogs that dont win and they will still look for methods of training them that might help them get the ribbon. Er no Steve, 16,000 Greyhounds are whelped each year for the express purpose of the sport which is inextricably linked to gambling. So many thousand greyhounds are killed each year due to the rampant over breeding. Take away the gambling, take away the incentive for over breeding. Then you take away the cruelty and the large scale killing. Name a single breed in other dog sports where 55 of the breed are found in a mass grave with a bullet to the head or their skulls bashed in and spent cartridges and a baseball bat are found nearby? Show us any evidence at all from anywhere around the world that has already banned greyhound racing where mass killings persisted 4 or 5 years after greyhound racing was banned.

M-J, There is no other breed of dog killed in the numbers that Greyhounds are every year by the racing industry. If Greyhounds live such happy and active lives, why are so many healthy dogs in the PRIME of their lives killed every year?

I expect there will be more discoveries of this nature in future. A single person was found to have killed over 10,000 Greyhounds in the UK. I think he was charged with illegal dumping or some other offence not directly related to killing Greyhounds.

Wow, that is more than probably anyone expected in NSW. This will be a warts and all exposé and some individuals will pay a heavy price. It will be interesting to see how many of the eventual recommendations will be adopted - it will definitely put pressure on other states to follow.

are they actually going to ensure the welfare of these dogs now that they're not racing, if so, how are they going to do that?It's good that some action has been taken and that people have had action taken against them, and I agree that these dogs should not be allowed to race under the circumstances...but what comes next for them? Has anyone actually put any thought into what happens to the dogs after they're barred from racing and are therefore effectively useless within the industry? One would hope that the owners would step in and take the dogs home. In the event that does not happen, GAP programs which are mainly funded by the instry could step in. In the event that even that doesn't happen, there are community based Greyhound rescues that can help. Ultimately, I hope each and every dog finds a wonderful forever home. Nooooo not ONE would hope, there are 28 dogs in NSW that have been suspended, that's JUST NSW. What about the trainers that have just thought "sh*t this is too hard I'm out"? What happens to their dogs? I was on a FB page today where an owner had just refused to pick up their dog, they'd disappeared into the eather and this trainer was wondering what the hell to do with this dog, seeing as they can't legally give it away. People are walking around in circles wondering WTF they do with dogs they don't own. One would HOPE just doesn't cut it, got room at your house Greyt? Actually no unfortunately, I am moving from a house to a townhouse next week so I can't take them although I wish I could - before we decided to buy the townhouse, we did consider an incredible house for a great price on 2 acres and now I kind of wish we had of gone that way... I hope to contribute to the cause by trying to raise awareness and I have and will contribute $$$ as well. Unfortunately for me, my daughter has an irrational fear of large dogs so when we were fostering the Greys, she refused to come and visit us with the kids so we did not get to participate in their lives in a "normal" way. We took the decision to have Whippets instead and now we have a fully engaged family life with 2 dogs we adore, 1 of which we got as a severely - to the extreme - anxious 5 year old and I have worked on helping her to deal with those issues... poor thing but she is getting there. I understand you are passionate about these dogs and it is easy to see that it is the dogs who have done nothing wrong will be paying the ultimate price unless they can be saved. From reading other threads, it looks like you are one of the few people in Australia that devote yourself on a daily basis to saving Greyhounds - what you do is beyond commendable to me, more like damn near heroic. I just can't fathom the disconnect (purely from my perspective) where you hardly talk about all of the ills brought about by the Greyhound Racing Industry, but instead, choose to criticise those that want to see and end to the industry - and before that happens, significant regulation changes that will bring about much better animal welfare outcomes. There are many in community based Greyhound rescue that devote their lives to saving individual dogs everyday of their lives. Their mission is to save dogs that need saving today but they do not countenance the behaviour of the industry that results in so many thousands of fabulous dogs being killed every year in the prime of their lives, the live baiting, doping, overbreeding, mass disposal etc. You could make the argument that the dogs that need immediate re-homing now are in that situation because of the footage they captured and brought to the publics attention through 4 Corners. I think that those same dogs need re-homing now because of the thoughtless, short sighted, cruel, illegal, do anything for a dollar people that we all saw deny their activities on film. They are the same people that are charged with the welfare of the dogs in their care. I ask, what are they doing to find homes for these dogs that they have exposed to the risks of being killed in the near future. I ask, how many dogs need to die in the next 10 years if there are no changes to the cumulative practices of the industry? And I ask how much undetected cruelty will go on if nothing changes?

are they actually going to ensure the welfare of these dogs now that they're not racing, if so, how are they going to do that?It's good that some action has been taken and that people have had action taken against them, and I agree that these dogs should not be allowed to race under the circumstances...but what comes next for them? Has anyone actually put any thought into what happens to the dogs after they're barred from racing and are therefore effectively useless within the industry? One would hope that the owners would step in and take the dogs home. In the event that does not happen, GAP programs which are mainly funded by the instry could step in. In the event that even that doesn't happen, there are community based Greyhound rescues that can help. Ultimately, I hope each and every dog finds a wonderful forever home.

Even Racing QLD will have to allow for some change to make the Minister look good eg, easier access to RSPCA to perform spot inspections. Betting on significant reform however would be taking the losing end of the bet.

It is telling that Victoria, which is a Labor state appears most willing to take the strongest action. It is always a temptation to think that nothing will change today, but over time, changes have already been made to increase the welfare of the dogs and movement along the continuum has never been as fast as it is today. One day, I feel, Humpty Dumty will have a great fall.

Great shots. I gave up trying to photograph mine due to the issue you have and that was after buying a better camera just for the dogs too! I should have known better! ETA, Kirty's shots are incredible!!

Is anyone in this thread except you discussing a ban on lure coursing, alcohol, other drugs, tennis balls, flirt poles, chasing the hose etc. Just a reminder, this thread is about the extremely challenging footage seen on 4 corners and the community reaction to that. When the media does an exposé on dogs and tennis balls that results in the current level of community outrage we are seeing here, I'm sure there will be a separate thread for you to comment on.

OMG, I fail so hard on using this software. I have searched how to use multiquotes, see them used all of the time and yet can't do it myself. Sorry all.

Personally, I'm on the fence when it comes to the question of banning the sport. On one hand, I can't see the industry cleaning up enough to satisfy the welfare concerns but on the other hand, I absolutely love ex racers as pets. Ban the sport and once all the current dogs have passed away, that'll be it- no more greyhounds except the showbreds and those backyard bred for hunting. Greyhounds get a very bad rap, as you know. I am convinced that they should be amongst the very top choices for all the baby boomers out there that want a much more low energy dog than they may have had when the kids were growing up. That is, the Grey is more suited now to our demographic than they have ever been (please don't read that they are just suited to older people). I am hopeful that if the sport was returned to a leisure activity, breeders would turn up to fulfil a pet need. Admittedly the reasoning against banning is selfish but how many people arguing for the ban are currently enjoying the companionship of an ex racer? The journey you can take with an ex-racer is remarkable. To see it go from A to Y in pet life in a compressed period of time is joyful - just like teaching a puppy but without the associated destruction! To stop all of the negative practices occurring today, the general public needs to join together to give the pollies an easy choice. Clean up or ban the industry once and for all (easy) or keep sponsoring the industry (hard). Victoria seems closest to making changes consistent with markedly improving the welfare of GH. It is the general public (large numbers of people) that will force the pollies to act, not the Greyhound owners (small numbers of people, easily ignored). The 4 Corners episode illustrates the power of the people. I think the only way to satisfy both sides of the issue would be a return of the sport to a hobby: with strict breeding limits, straight grass tracks and the requirement that every dog bred is accounted for and given the chance of rehoming once retired. Not that it'll happen, of course, so.. meh I would love to see the above and when you look at what has happened to the industry, even from 5 short years ago, we are already on that track. It is a process that will occur over time, not overnight. Don't underestimate this industry's capacity for dumb. Time and again, they have given the welfare lobby the ammunition it needs to put forward a winning argument for change. That change is already happening - we are about to see the biggest changes to improve Greyhound welfare that we ever have - bring it on! Like @Labadore says, the industry has failed in its duty to protect the Greyhounds in its care and has failed each time. This step ends self regulation in 2 or 3 states. One more big slip up from the industry after that and one state will go down and that will signify the beginning of the end.

There are a large number of trainers that love their dogs and use ethical training techniques. Unfortunately, They have always been simply overwhelmed by the numbers of those those that put money ahead of everything else, including the welfare of the dogs in their care. For every dog living in air-conditioned comfort, how many healthy dogs in the prime of their lives are mercilessly shown the bullet? @ Trifecta, FWIW, I made my living from gambling for a short but sweet 18 months before my OH decided I was having too much fun and had to work for a living. My feeling was that most of the punters l came into contact with (a lot) led lives of quite desperation. Seeing it up close and personal made me feel just a little bit grubby. Informed punters know they can't beat a vig of 16-20% so the people wagering on Greyhounds are generally .. not well informed. BTW, the figures I have quoted ITT are mainly from RSPCA Vic - http://www.rspcavic.org/issues-take-action/animals-in-sport-and-entertainment/greyhound-racing Given the industry does not keep many figures such as how many dogs are disposed of after their usefulness has expired, I guess the RSPCA would be in the next-best position to educate the general public, hence my references to their figures. PS I never bet on animal races of any description.

I don't think agility dogs or racing sled dogs sustain injuries at the rate of 600 per month or 7200 per year. Greyhounds love to run. So do all sighthounds. Only Greyhounds are significantly overbread, only Greyhounds suffer doping, live in tiny cages in such numbers, only Greyhounds are killed because they are not fast enough, only Greyhounds are killed because they are no longer competitive, only Greyhounds in significant numbers are fed such poor diets that their teeth rot prematurely. I hope you crossbreed and your Belgian made fast and full recoveries however I do not think they can teach us much in the discussion about Greyhounds.