davidthedogman

Here is the latest reply. Am I that dumb that I cannot see the words in their rules? Andrew am I going around in circles with this? Official Ruling (All dogs must have a slip or fixed collar which fits only the dog's neck and which must remain on the dog at all times. No spiked collars or collars which give additional head control shall be permitted ) Your rule, where does it say cruelty? It clearly states “ No spiked collars or collars which give additional head control” That’s it, nothing about cruelty at all. So in all fairness to my question, please advise of where the wording of Cruelty is? Dave From: Andrew Robinson Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 9:51 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Fw: general enquiry David, Below is a copy of the email sent to you on Tuesday Kind Regards Andrew Robinson Dogs Queensland PO Box 495 Fortitude Valley Qld 4006 Phone (07) 3252 2661 Fax (07) 3252 3864 Website www.dogsqueensland.org.au ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew Robinson To: David Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 8:24 AM Subject: Re: general enquiry The head collars (Halties ect) are seen as giving an advantage. Pronged or Pinch collars are seen as an act of Cruelty and is there for against our policies Kind Regards Andrew Robinson Dogs Queensland PO Box 495 Fortitude Valley Qld 4006 Phone (07) 3252 2661 Fax (07) 3252 3864 Website www.dogsqueensland.org.au

Jules I think the biggest problem is, people!!!! Look at the dog, they meet, decide in a nano second friend or foe, then they sniff bums and wag tails like crazy. What a self centered egotistical lot we humans are, dogs must look at us and say. YOU have issues serious issues hah hah

I am an equal party to the email, there is nothing in the email that is of a sensitive nature, and emails are not classed the same as mail. My point of posting it is to show how slow the cogs turn, especially when I have a legitimate question, based on their rules. Currently as I write this, there is still no reply from a professional body, to an easy question. This tells me one of two things. I'm correct or they refuse to answer, by posting here in a public forum, my hope is they will now want to be shown in a positive light. Remember at the start of this thread, well now I have their rule, which they are all quoting, and it clearly states in trials.... Now I was asked to remove the pinch in training. I have no desire to go to trials, mere;y a desire to soc my dog in a safe manner for all, now some here may think I am flogging a dead horse or what is the point, the point is clearly these people have been caught out and I want them to acknowledge the rule they are trying to wrongly enforce. Not hard really.

Ok everyone here is the state of play I will post the email and my response to the ANKC. I must say I am dismayed at the lack of reply... There is nothing in the Animal abuse ACT / Or any QLD state regulations, the RSPCA is a body like anyone else, and does have the power to make law. I have asked several times now for clarification of the equipment rule in judging, still not reply. The person I sent this to did not even respond to me, she punted it Andrew!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not going away so I hope they do answer. Andrew thankyou for your reply. I have found the rule in the judging section, but the way I read this is, it would be an unfair advantage in competition if used, it says nothing RE: Training. I look forward to your reply. David Sweeney Dave, It is an ANKC regulation and can be found in the Obedience Rules. I am pretty sure you will also find it in the RSPCA and State Government regulations. Kind Regards Andrew Robinson Dogs Queensland PO Box 495 Fortitude Valley Qld 4006 Phone (07) 3252 2661 Fax (07) 3252 3864 Website www.dogsqueensland.org.au ----- Original Message ----- From: Roslyn Glancy To: Andrew Robinson Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 8:19 AM Subject: Fw: general enquiry Kind Regards Roslyn Glancy Dogs Queensland PO Box 495 Fortitude Valley Qld 4006 Phone (07) 3252 2661 Fax (07) 3252 3864 Website www.dogsqueensland.org.au ----- Original Message ----- From: David & Janelle To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 8:35 PM Subject: general enquiry At training Friday 9/9/2011 near the end of training I was approached by the club President, and asked to remove the pinch collar I was using. I asked why, and he stated it was against CCCQ rules. I have searched your rules, and cannot find any evidence of this, could you if in fact, such a rule exists, please inform me of same. Dave Sweeney

Have you good folks heard of the foundation method, to train a dog to heal? No words spoken and it takes no more that 10 minutes to get a reliable heal.

Everyone I have to give you all a huge pat on the back, for the way you have all handled this discussion, no bickering or name calling just awesome post's THANKYOU

No, I tell you the same as I telling mr Jeff is the Schutzhund club is not behavior clinic and is not automatic the place to go to use the prong becuase many the Schutzhund club will be wanting no prongs on the pup also same as the obedience club the poster talk about. Dont be thinking becuase is common to see prongs on the working dogs the Schutzhund clubs all use prongs, they dont is my point here. The poster say he has protection trained Malinois and do the KNPV already so why he at obedience club for the pets to argue the prong rules is making no sense to me? Joe As previously stated, this dog has had no socialization at all. I need to dis sensitize her.so we can move forward. I have now had a couple of emails back and forth from the ANKC. I will publish these in due course. But it seems to me the objection, is the advantage one would gain from using anything other than a check chain.

Seriously? is it worth the grief for you and the club and the innocent folks just going to train and enjoy their dogs? It is not about you v the club there are mums and dads and kiddies and their dogs there as well! No doubt it will get heated again and just be unpleasant and that will reflect in the way your dog perceives the situation and wont help your training will it? We go out it gets stressful, people yell, this wide world is a scary place!!! Why bother? Would the bigger person not just walk away and find somewhere else? I could even give you some sensible suggestions if you are looking for somewhere nearby to socialize your dog and train it using what works for you. Bull Arab thanks for the reply. It is not about a screaming match. I will not raise my voice, it is about our pup getting what she needs, if I keep going from one place to another and get told off all the time why bother, she needs building and confidence, she will get that regardless of what this guys says. I will not be part of a confrontation, so the choice is his, just leave alone and let me train..... Easy I reckon.

Ok eberyone after much searching I found this in the ANKC Rules for the conduct of Obedience Trials (Effective from 1st January 2011) Approved by the Australian National Kennel Council 1965 One of the sections for Judging. Collars and Leads: All dogs must have a slip or fixed collar which fits only the dog's neck and which must remain on the dog at all times. No spiked collars or collars which give additional head control shall be permitted. The minimum length of lead will be 750 mm and it will be fitted with a quick release fastener. All dogs must enter and leave the Ring on a lead. In exercises that require a dog to be off-lead, the lead will be taken off and handed to the Steward at the Start Peg. All exercises with the exception of ‘Heel on Lead’ and ‘Stand for Examination’ in the Community Companion Dog Class must be executed off-lead. The above rule does not extend to club obedience only trials, in the club training section this is not mentioned at all. So I was confused before, now I am scratching my head.. Now I read this rule to mean you cannot have the advantage of a pinch collar, nothing to do with the welfare of the dog at all!!!!!

Thankyou, but do not fear, she is way to young for any form of defensive training, every Malinois i have done over the years, works in prey, and does nothing but obedience and scent work for the first year, at 14 months I will stake test here, to what is actually in there. If she is not suitable for man work, she will already be tracking / trailing in drive, as per Leerburg / RMCP / ADF standard. If she makes the grade we will do KPNV as with our other dogs, but only if she even tempered, no fear or aggression. I like my dogs to switch off and on like a light switch, hope this allays your fears on this. I have decided I will return to Logan on Friday and train adjacent to them, outside the pine log fence if I have to, it's about the dog not me.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head. The OP is looking for a statement of 'rule', while this refusal for his dog to wear a prong collar at training, seems more a 'convention' in that organisation. A convention is based on general agreement about how something is to be done. While a rule is a binding code. If the OP wants to challenge the generality of that convention, then I'd suggest he approaches the organisation and its membership & sets out his position on the use of the prong collar. Cheers for this. I did go to the induction night, and were told they used check chains, they did say, no flat collars, head halties harnesses or martingdales, pinch collar was not and is not mentioned in the blurb you get, or told. I will not attend and train adjacent to them

That's what I have done and have recommended to clients. I even suggest taking a membership with the club, seeing as you're benefiting from their services, but there is certainly no obligation. Good one guys thanks I will do this one.

My point in all of this is thus. If a rule is stated as CCCCQ and the Clubs Rules, then an associated body under Fair Trade Acts, must have a Constitution and code of practice published with rules. I have absolutely no problems with that, the problem I did have was when I politely asked to see the rule, just because he said, is not good enough for me sorry. He then went on to say that NO club in QLD would allow. I WENT THERE TO SOCIALIZE.. not to train but let her see that other dogs and people were not a threat when she was wearing her training equipment, the pinch is used as it will not cause the damage a check would if she trued to bolt expectantly. Guys I did not go to this club with the intention of being a toss. I did not tell them who I am and what I do. I just wanted to be Mr anon and train my dog with other dogs around, the first night I went I had her on a check, well behind the group, this really upset the instructor whom wanted me IN the class and she would get used to it. I explained what I was doing but she really went to town on me, telling everyone she was a SAR dog instructor and protection yadda yadda yadda. I stood there kept my mouth shut and let her get on with it. I stayed away for a week ans did a lot more with Honey, then went back, old mate even went as far as walking up behind the class to watch me, guess what my girl and two other dogs were not impressed with him doing that. I asked him to please go to the front and not approach from behind, this is obviously what started things off. He stood in the middle of the paddock making dogs walk around him, why I have no idea, we were doing the sit stay excersise, this is week two, with my girl and my wife's malinut away from each other doing the excersise, they break and reward, we are over the top with the reward as you do. That's when I looked up and old mate was in front, so I moved away and sat down as not to be offensive, and got another bollocking, so i thought hey mate your making the statement back it up...... FAIL no liver treat for you.

Case in point, my protection dog, another Malinut, has done all his man work training on the prong, full bite suit type work, where we can drag the person he has hold of, while he is wearing the pinch. I mean drag 100+ kilos while Toby has hold of him. When I say FOOSE, he stops mid fight and returns to heal, when I turn him off, the guy in the suit plays with him, would I do this on a check chain even a 10mm one NO, as it would damage his throat. That is the level of control I want and will get from this little girl, if it takes years so be it, one small step at a time, the point is she and the old boy see the pinch they KNOW WE are going to have fun, and react with excitement. To be fair the guy was not saying I am an idiot he was saying it is the rules. I just wanted to see it in writing. I still have not found it, and CCCQ has not replied. I am worried as a previous poster said, it is there little world right or wrong, but what if some of it is wrong and dogs get hurt? Is that the instructor or the students duty of care?

I agree 100% against anyone hurting the dogs, but harsh or severe discipline???? what is that exactly? If an Akita is about to kill the person or dog next to it, please be a good dog, oh you bit them bad bad dog??? You know that is just rubbish. I was leading our girl, not even correcting, have done the foundation method with her, she sits and does not move from that position, she heals nicely, happily trots along she is a real prancer, all on the pinch collar there is no need to correct her.

Your spot on. They are and she is a little prey monster food is the motivation, and that is what I was attempting to do..... And I do take advice thankyou.

Thanks mate

Seriously? I know this is an emotive issue, but if you don't like the methods that a club uses/allows wouldn't you just move on to another training organisation where it is welcome in preference to upsetting everyone? We see this type of advice on here time and time again, why not just take it? You could actually bankrupt the club by going down that path which would be a lot worse for the larger community than you having to find somewhere else to use your chose training method. FTR - personally, I don't like the idea of prong collars, but that doesnt' mean I don't want anyone to use them when there is a need/desire for them to be used properly. Others don't like me playing with my dog in obedience classes to keep them motivated - I have left those clubs and found an environment I do like training in. Like Nekhbet said though - contact the CCCQ if you really feel that strongly. You honestly think it is ok for someone to enforce something that does not exist??? this is a stretch but history is full of people turning a blind eye. Here is the history. We inherited a Malinois 6mth Female, with no soc done at all, she even freaked at her own shadow, the idea after I have obedience trained her which I have, was to let her meet other dogs and people, and accept they were not trying to hurt her, the check chain on her is uselessness, her level of discomfort is near the moon, a haltey would have caused neck injury, and a check throat injury, my choice was the pinch. I have been using this collar on her for two weeks, and she works very well on it, no problems at all. So here I am at a club where all these fogs are being dragged around, on check chain and being injured, here is me minding my own and having a great time until, a rule that does not exist but it the rule and must be enforced stops the game. I get balled out in from of 20 people and like a good boy I quietly state my case, while the club president acts like a dill????? Was i annoyed for being balled out? no I was annoyed for not being shown a stupid rule that does not exist. SHOW ME THE RULE

Where can I find this in writing please? The actuall rule in the code of conduct thankyou, not heresay.

Liquor Lic Act in QLD clearly states codes, dress for certain area's in establishments is one of those. I completely understand what you say, but this man was adamant it was a RULE. I just asked to be shown the rule out of courtesy. I at no time raised my voice or got up from my sitting position from the ground. Unlike him whom got very agitated that I would ask such a dumb question, and you know, mybe this is a case that should go before a court, if people want to make it up on the fly. I strongly disagree, that is a form of bullying. Anyway thanks for the input.

I have spoken with a Barrister friend of mine, he has also read all the PDF's from both bodies, hie learned advice is thus, it is not put into print or published as it is not lawfully supported by a Government Act,he further states any body that would try and impinge another's tights with respect to the use of equipment, used by Government Departments would in all probability fail in court. So the way I understand it is they cannot force you to do anything just because they say so. I'm going back to logan on Monday night and try again. It's not up to me to prove the rule it's up to them.....

Folks I do not want opinions. I want to be pointed to the rule in writing, as I will challenge this in court.

Where does it say that in writing please?

Tonight I was asked to leave the obedience class at Logan Allbreeds for using a pinch collar. I was told it was against the rules of the club, the CCCQ as well. I said that I had trained here several years before with a pinch and there was never a problem. The President firmly stated to me it was against the club and control council rules. I politely asked to view the rule, to which I was told it was not in writing but it was a rule???? I asked several times to be shown this very important rule, to no avail, having come home I have read all the CCCQ and ANKC and every QLD State act and guess what??? I cannot find any rules governing this??? What is the answer? I have always been under the impression that rules / laws of clubs must be in existence not just spoken into reality, anyone help me on this please?