Rusky

congratulations... one to go

yes they are the same sound, use come for here or close for heel, change one.

sorry I hadn't seen this. How you live with your dog has everything to do with how you train your dog. Is it an inside/outside, does it get walked twice daily, one a week or thrown a frisbee in the park. The excercise you give your dog, the place it lives, the size of your block and heaps of other factors detemine the right choices for you and your dog and why it might drag you along. Good luck with your walk I hope it is going better.

at our club all dogs of the right age are invited to beginners agility,most join for obedience and are older 'problem' dogs when invited. The youngsters need to reach maturity, formal obedience is not a requirement.

I think she needs more real situation practice. Without reading all the replies so I am not sure if it has been suggested, do more at club level with a 'judge' and correctly set up ring, ignore her when training except for specific instructions, no chat no correction no reward... I mean exactly as a trial situation. It is my guess despite your friends comments that you are the one giving off signals, dogs pick up our body language and change of disposition much easier than we can of people. So for you whistle a happy tune in your head in contrived practice and do exactly the same in the ring, sometimes when as a steward on the figure of 8 I can feel the tension the handler is giving off, dogs are much more perceptive.

Depends on the size of the dog really, the home situation, the walking areas and the way the owners live with their dogs. I had a 5 month old english mastiff arrive at training with the owner almost airborne behind her. I agree with you both generally but knowing how to use a collar can go a long way to help a nice walk. If the owners are unable to walk the dog it won't get walked. Flat collar first choice

There is a vid that comes with the purchase of head halters, maybe someone has a copy you can watch. It seems to me that the halter was put on and left on? The trainer really needs to demo the use with a dog already used to the collar and then demonstarte for you how to put it on, make sure it fits correctly and that you have a secondary collar. I use a rope but blackdog have the combination which is really nice. Unfortunately unless the stages of fitting and using are done correctly for every dog then dogs which may have benefitted by the collar can be freaked out and unhappy. Have you seen the Illusion collar which Cesar Milan has developed and is promoting with the idea of using twin collars one high up around the neck like chokers would be positioned. I like the look of the collar and would be great to keep the dog in behind you without accidental strangling by inexperienced users.

it seems that the gear may have been in the trailer when it was stolen last year, but someone else thought we sold it. I am still fairly sure it is in the presidents garage will let you know soon as he is back from holidays

our club have some flyball gear, we don't use it but when I asked about flyball starting up again apparently the gear has been superceeded and we spend all our money on agility equipment. I will ask and get back to you asap. BTW was down at canine one evening a while ago and saw someone doing a spot of flyball. I will ask around to see who that was, they have to be registered with canine or affiliated club to be there.

Cosmolo I was simply pointing out the method of training and as you can see most have said that horses are all trained with some negative pressure. I was simply refuting that from the outset. My response was to the clicks to explain the different sounds and how they were taught to a horse and that I have been thinking about different sounding clickers as a cue... thats it. I did not intend a debate about horse training... just different clicks. We have all seen wrecked horses. I know there are shocking trainers out there, shocking riders too.

I have been thinking about this since a few weeks ago when I was with a girl who trained her horses grand prix dressage to olympic standard, she uses her mouth to make different clicks for different moves. I was absolutely fascinated as I couldn't detect any change in the click but the horse did. So I have been wondering about different click meaning different reward or command, the horses are all positively trained.

I watched a judge collect and remove a dog last night, then restarted the stays because he caused total mayhem, lovely dog though nice character just not solid on stays, needs a lot of work. was only in CCD. So I was chatting with people and we all came to the conclusion that the steward can't move before instructed by the judge, we went through a few scenarios from jumpy stewards to reactive dog and still you must be instructed by the judge.

:D

Hi Sonic I think you would need to find someone wherever you live to help you. I honestly don't think I can show you over a forum. I worry too about misinterpretation just as working dog did. I think chatting ideas is fine but specifics are more difficult. We are all presumably speaking in general terms. If you want a solution using positive training then find a positive trainer close to you. You can always find a better motivator, usually... yourself

the steward shouldn't move unless instructed by the judge. Eye contact is enough between the steward and the judge. I too have only heard the horror stories and not seen anything nasty personally. I think too that a little extra time sometimes needs to be given to settle the dogs. At the classic we had a judge who didn't allow the dogs to be settled between stays, naturally now everyone is working on that but I feel there should be a settle time of 30 seconds, after all they are independant excercises. Extra cues are usually always noted by the judge, and everyone else watching :D

poodlefan I honestly haven't see the cue speak work for a chronic barker. I know the idea is you teach your dog to 'speak' from offered behaviour and reward. The idea is that the dog will only speak when it is asked and rewarded, works well from new pup I believe but for a barker who loves the sound of his own voice I have great reservations and I don't know any which have worked. I have never taught my dogs to speak 'bark' but all my dogs talk to me with that mumbly chatty stuff they do. I have taught every dog to converse with me, thats why everyone who is not doggy thinks I am completely nuts :D I have only ever gone to see the source of a bark and also when I put my hand through the dogs collar at the door, they growl and bark, to a 'who is it' I can say 'who is it' without the hand and no bark, just waggy tail. I do of course use a different tone. I do cue the dog to bark I guess but only at the door to a stranger and my hand must be through the collar. Soon as I release the collar they are waggy and happy again.

often the punishment for a dog barking is 'shaddup ya mongrel' in loud voice with a few expletives thrown in. The dog sees the "attention" as a reward and it doesn't stop. That is the reason why it is preferable to discover the reason for barking. If the dog is barking becasue it can see Joe Bloggs walking past and say Joe walks past at the same time every day and you can do a similar set up then set up for desensitising by calling and rewarding before Joe walks past, before the bark or at the very least, one call.... dog will run to the door. If the dog is barking to be let in... then don't let in and don't reward till quiet. I never reward behaviour I don't want, neither do you. nothing wrong with management, we women are experts at it, why not use it to our advantage. It is fine to manage a behaviour but of course combined with training solutions. I also know pp dogs who are not allowed off lead, or to mix, or to play. I won't disagree with you. I also know dogs trained by old school who also can't be let off or to play. I don't really see a massive problem with that. I only ever allow one on one puppy socialisation and just as much for the benefit of the handler to read canine body language as for the dog to feel safe in a new environment. I think people are perfectly entitled not to allow their dog to play, it is their dog... I have asked and been refused, asking is the key, making friends with the handler and your dogs getting used to each other and watching their behaviour. I always feel that management is a safe option with an unknown quantity to give dog and handler an opportunity to feel comfortable. There was a thread recently about a dog which had bitten someone, the best advice I read on that thread was to keep the dog away from the children till an expert could be called to assist with the dogs behaviour. That is management too.

sorry poodlefan I don't believe I use PP, I certainly never claimed to. I think pp is simply waiting for behaviour to be offered then rewarded and though i know people who say they use PP I see them move dogs into desirable position eg sitting close then reward. My first question for a barking dog is 'why does it bark' 'when does it bark' 'what happens when the dog barks' and so on. I know there are fruit loop dogs out there with excellent owners but they are few and far between. If a dog is barking for the sound of it's voice it is probably better to go and see what is happening. I think good manners come first from both the owner and the dog, I am not speaking of trialing dogs here. There is a kelpie who barks like crazy when competing in agility or jumping. The dog makes me giggle cos I know he is saying ' oh wow' 'wheeeeeeeeeeeee' 'fantastic' he is happy.... it has been mentioned that the handler may like to stop the dog barking but if the dog is talking to say he is having a wonderful time then why would you want him to be quiet, why stop a joyful dog. Sorry there are masses of examples of why dogs bark and I know you have a particularly vocal one. ( I think so anyway) I had one here I was fostering, I went to have a look what she was barking at ( because I do) I decided that I would distract her next time, call her with a ball. This dog had only been with me a couple of weeks and this was just her second barking session. Well I missed the start of the next time, so I went to look again and she came with me along the fenceline. I looked said nothing and left. She didn't speak again while she was with me and I really have no idea if she just was worried and thought she had to protect me. The dog was being pts as she was a continual barker, she is rehomed now and I told them if she barks just go and see what the fuss is about, it worked for me, they haven't had any problems. They will call me if there is I know The question is always why is the dog barking. I know a barking dog can drive you nuts but finding the trigger for the initial behaviour and dealing with that can work. I know people debark but the operation needs repeating... bark collars the dogs seem to work through till they are not affective. A lady I know tried a citronella collar from the shire for her dog, it wasn't working too well after a few days. The dogs were fence runners, I told her to make a fence between hers and the back door and to make it solid, to have toys and stimulation when she wasn't home or to leave them inside when she went out. A combination plus a reward system of her calling the dogs when she saw people about to walk past adn rewarding for coming to her and not barking has worked.... for now but she will need to be consistant as they most definitely set each other off. I used to walk past these dogs daily, barking and then no bark. I think a combination of management and reward based training will help but honestly it really is impossible for most people to devote a few days of solid behaviour management to repress barking. I haven't seen a perfect solution and I actually think the citronella collars are possibly worse than debarking. What did you do eventually? and has it worked?

what level of training are you speaking of? is this a dog which is already proofed or are we speaking of the dog the trainer is given on the first day. or were you making a joke? yes I believe all dogs can be taught positively, just as many of you believe they need corrections ( except so far no one has given me an example of a correction) The aversive is not gaining the reward. I disagree with the op that a dog cannot be taught a reliable recall by positive training methods, they can and they are. The thread is fast turning into a positive V correction training. I don't have a problem with that but I think you all need like cosmolo to watch dogs which have been trained by different methods. I have. Cosmolo you need to make yourself the most important thing in the world and their reward whatever it may be, dogs have different things they love as do we. I have given some examples already, for a search and rescue dog I know it is a scrap of fabric with hard rubber inside, for an assistance dog I know it is a fluffy teddy.

Hi cosmolo, sorry I was out so hadn't seen your reply. We went to the dogs, I haven't been before but I loved those dogs, so playful and happy. One dog was miles behind the others in what looked like a training run, wasn't a race... he was jumping around doing play bows and then looked and seemed to be saying 'where'd they go?' a sweet dog I expect gap or GA will get soon, he really wasn't interested in the lure. ok back to this. I would find something more rewarding. yes you are speaking avoidance, I am speaking reward, to get something great they need to do XYZ... yes. We have already noted that the lack of treat... they want... don't get till behaviour is correct, as an aversive. So in technical terms aversives are used, I simply use a lower level. praise only when correct behaviour is demonstrated. I ignore a lot, don't look, let the dog settle and be comfortable. I agree with you that correction will result in avoidance, absolutely but correction description can again be ambiguous. I correct by placing and rewarding. What corrections do you use? The training generally is for the handler anyway, advice on how to live with your dog and how to both prevent and cure undesirable behaviour. I know there are a lot of people on here who disagree with me... I am not phased. I am not a dog trainer, I am a people trainer. For every action there is a reaction, it is up to us to choose the action. now I really must get my xmas cards written

sorry Myszka I missed this I don't I show it when it is doing something right :D

of course they use drive I also agree you cannot compare any dog be it working or not. more to the point how would you? I would find a motivator, I know many dogs who do not find food rewarding even when the treat has high value, usually the whole feeding regime needs to be looked at. One girl for instance who insisted her dog would not work for food followed me without question for BBQ chicken, another left food out all day long in case he got hungry or missed her. Often working with people and watching their lifestyle can give immediate answers, some take longer. I found a fluffy sort of frizbee after a show, I left it for reclaiming but a particular dog wanted it, really wanted it... This dog is not particularly food motivated. The owner of the toy didn't put her hand up so we used that for this particular dog, he will do anything for his toy, a happy accident... I believe you are teaching only avoidance of the punishment, if we are really speaking of punishment aversion, but as I said in the last post I would need qualification of the statement to comment, the level of aversion. If you mean witholding the reward till we gain what we are asking then it is obviously not counter productive as the dog is rewarded for correct behaviour. thank you, that is exactly what I am saying and if positive training works for a reliable recall then why use aversives as they are not necessary. this works only as a lure, ultimately the dog must and will see the handler as the reward but combined with many things, not just food. It is silly to expect that a dog will work for food alone for ever, it won't. Most dogs will take a treat anytime but it doesn't mean they are trained does it? The food is a motivator as are verbal and physical praise. I prefer training through positives, what more can I say?

not necessary and depending on the level of aversion very harsh. There are levels of aversion being mentioned. where is the animal rights reference? why what have you heard? what do you know? I disagree with the op. I disagree with aversion and positives being mixed. The WA police use positive training, they do not use E collars. and cosmolo yes correct but your qualifying statement is ambiguous and could be open to the wrong interpretation. For instance K9 suggested that witholding food is an aversive. I don't think witholding treats or tug toys is on the same level as ear pinching for example. I disagree that a reliable recall cannot be taught by positive reinforcement because I know it can.

not now, no e collars. I don't speed and I don't see any similarities even if I did. I am human not canine, I treat my dogs like dogs, not humans with human understanding. I don't understand the use of aversives. I guess we can agree to differ.

what I actually said was :D I have met plenty but getting less and less. I don't see why you would mix positive with aversive it would be counter productive. Myszka. My post reply was speaking of Western Australia... not the UK not Eastern states either. If a dog is not food motivated then find an alternative obsession. a toy, tug game, whatever. It isn't hard to find something the dog loves and also that the dog loves and feels safe being with you which is the best of all in the combination of positive training.