Weasels

I see dogs who live in groups and there definitely is physical harm in some altercations and it is not by accident. How much injury a dog wants to risk depends on need/want Vs physical pain and capability. To me it makes more sense that a dog's 'necessity' for physical altercation depends on its instinct and environmental feedback. One of my best girls is very physical with her pups, not all of them, but usually there are one or two who forget where they inherit their alpha birthright from. Even when there are physical altercations between dogs from different families, physical harm is definitely part of the 'negotiation' process. Of course, physical alteration is not used in the first instance between dogs that live in the same group, but I think it is definitely part of their communication repertoire. A natural dog's coat and morphology can actually withstand physical harm quite well. Ie: harm will be received as physical pain but the risk of death and infection is very low. So it is very unlikely that physical confrontation between dogs who live in the same group will be life threatening. EXCEPT in the situation where there is an intolerance between two members due to stronger basic instincts. I cannot comment about wolves and coyotes and their bite inhibition as I do not spend time with them Which is exactly my point about the inadvisability of using wild canid observations to explain domestic dog behaviour. Domestic dogs have much less pressure to survive and much more interaction with other individuals, including other dogs and multiple other species as well. A wolf in a stable territory can go through its whole life and only encounter a couple of other wolves that aren't members of its family. My dogs have met 10 other dogs and 7 other humans just on their walk at the park this morning. Makes sense that they would need a broader and sometimes more insistent communication reportoire.

lili it was poorly worded but I do not believe it's incorrect. By 'physical' I meant interactions with the potential to cause physical harm. Wild canids, and most social species, will not risk injury unecessarily - just to communicate - when an injury is quite likely to mean death through infection or inability to procure food. It would be evolutionary suicide. I would expect the level of apparent physicality, however, to correlate with the presence of bite inhibition. Wolves have it, coyotes not so much.

Decades ago, when people were observing interactions between unrelated wolves that they had placed in an enclosure together, they saw what they thought was the alpha wolf pushing a subordinate wolf onto the ground by their neck and pinning it there to assert its dominance. Long story short, some people use this technique to assert dominance over their domesticated dogs. What will actually occur within a stable wolf pack is a subordinate (usually an offspring of the alpha wolf, which is by definition the primary breeding individual) will volunteer a position on the ground. Canids do a lot of posturing and subtle body language to communicate so they don't have to be physical with each other. If a wolf is actually forcing another wolf onto the ground by its neck, it is almost always about to kill it. If you want to create a dog that is fearful, or reactive/aggressive to being touched around its neck, alpha rolls are a great way to go. You can get away with it on some dogs, in many you are creating far worse behavioural problems than you started with. Also, and I've said it before, dogs aren't wolves. And they don't think for a second that WE are wolves either.

I like this post. This is why I stick my 2 cents in when people talk about dominance. I have met numerous people both on DOL and in the meatspace who have sweet young dogs who's only crime when you enquire further is wanting to be close to their owners. It's a much better use of time and energy to build a good relationship and clear communication with your dog imho, rather than always watching your dog out of the corner of your eye just in case they are looking for a regime change If someone's going to ask me for tips on how to alpha roll their puppy - like happened to me last week - they'd better be prepared for a loooong conversation ;)

Thanks Trinabean If anyone has half an hour spare, perhaps during a commute, here's a link to download one of Ian Dunbar's excellent iwoofs podcasts on dominance theory - http://www.dogstardaily.com/radio/206-–-whos-boss . It's also up in the itunes store. He's obviously much better at saying what I was trying to say.

I get very uncomfortable when people start talking about dominance in dogs, mainly for 3 reasons: 1) it sets up an adversarial relationship with your dog, suggesting he is always plotting against you 2) People think that establishing dominance is a substitute for training (I've met people that think like this at the dog park - being 'alpha dog' will NOT give you perfect recall) and 3) it can lead to 'one size fits all' training solutions, which are often lazy and ineffective. There are 2 questions I ask myself when I watch dogs: 'What is the simplest explanation for this?' and 'Is it causing any problems?' I'm sure dominance over certain situations or resources exists, and some dogs are more prone to it. I'm also sure it isn't as common as many people think. If your dog isn't doing anything to upset you, why worry about it? If those behaviours do annoy you, train him out it For instance I don't let my dogs go through the front door before me because then they'll have free access to the street. Since I trained this, nothing in them has changed except they don't go out the front door before me (Hope this all makes sense. Late. Tired. ) (edited for grammar. Also to say your Lovemyrottie your dog sounds like a great little family member :D)

Speaking for mine, I feel better that they aren't totally alone, but they rarely play together and I don't rely on them to provide mental stimulation for each other. The Foxdog is a bit 'special' when it comes to other dogs, and even when she wants to play I don't think she knows how (she can read and manipulate humans like an expert though ;)). In some ways I am jealous of people with dogs that play together and are 'friends', but on the flip side mine don't knock things over wrestling and chasing each other around the house I am however very grateful that I can leave toys, food, etc. lying around without fear of fights or stealing It'd be a struggle to leave them alone during the day otherwise. The main problem is that if one gets all woofy about something the other will join in, and bark for longer because they don't know what they were barking about in the first place! :rolleyes:

I'd be happy if both the dogs got their HSAs and HSAd titles (both have their PT) I'm considering trying out Fox for a JD too I'd never really considered trialling in agility before but she just loves it so much!

Honestly, the thing they play most together is tug of war with and old towel It's cheap at least!

Too much At least OH and I have slightly offset work hours so I get to stay with them for an hour or so after he leaves and he gets home a couple of hours before me. They get exercise, play and training time every day plus kongs/bones etc. while we are out. But when i used to work from home they just slept all day, so I assume they still do, which eases my guilt

It's not a movie, but my OH and i loved Porthos the Beagle from the series 'Enterprise' Everytime he came on screen we'd say 'awwwwww poor-thos" :p

Perhaps we should all take a moment to be thankful our doggy embarrassments haven't gone viral on youtube!

It's amazing how much of your heart these little critters can take up isn't it

Yep I agree. I don't really like the word 'rude' when it comes to dog-human interactions though, because it is almost always used by the human standards and the dog has no innate reason to think it is doing anything wrong. I think it's more applicable to dog-dog interactions though because they should be able to speak 'dog', but then some are just a bit...erm.. special :D Edit - agree with Minxy as well - too much serious :p

Of course that's ideal, but I believe JulesP has border collies (?) which are bred to make very quick, independent decisions. And once they make that decision they can be gone before you know which way you're facing! And often you don't know that something is an issue that needs training until it has happened. It's unfortunate that the people got a damp blanket but I bet Jules does a check for picnicers now :p

If I was moronic enough to have a picnic in one of the few off lead areas in the entire shire and at a very large park with heaps of alternative picnic areas then no I wouldn't be annoyed if I got jumped on. I'd laugh :D The dog has probably been spending a fair percentage of their life on blankets, how on earth would it know that this blanket in this spot is one to keep away from. And if it's never crashed a picnic before, it couldn't have been trained out of it so the owner was probably just as surprised as the picnicers! No point getting mad at animals, that's just causing yourself unnecessary stress.

Once a week, the night before bin day. But they do the majority of their business while out on walks anyway, so there isn't much. And no-one really goes out in our backyard during the week - the dogs only go out to toilet and make sure there are no cats on the fence, the rest of the time they are inside.

Long-term sperm storage can occur in some reptiles and some invertebrates (wasps, worms etc.) but not dogs, or any mammals as far as I know. Multiple matings sound like the culprit. Did you win a beer at least? ;)

The leaving and the compression wrap are good strategies, but the shock collar may have made things worse I fear For example, if I was having a panic attack, and someone would come up and smack me in the back of the head randomly, this would only increase my anxiety rather than decrease it. Probably doubly so if I couldn't work out where it was coming from. As always, professional advice is best, but here's what I do with my 2 (my girl had SA when I first got her): - Never leave them alone without a walk/run first - Always leave them with something to do, e.g. a bone, a frozen kong, a treat ball or a pigs ear. Preferably something they love that they don't get at any other time. - I make sure I give them the above food treat before I start gathering up my keys etc. so they don't get wound up as I am leaving. On a good morning, they don't even look up when I go. - I make sure they have a quiet, cosy place to sleep the day away, in my case that's inside on the couches. Plus there are plenty of toys around in case they wake up and want to squeak something. - I've added a 'cue' word when I leave, which means "I'm going, but I'll be back" (I'm not sure how effective this is, but I keep it up anyway). Mine is "be good!" If you go down the bones etc. path, you could start by giving her the treat, going out, then coming back before she finishes it. Then gradually increasing the time to just after she's finished etc. Another tip I received but didn't implement myself was having times when you are at home but the dog can't get to you, like putting up a baby gate so they can still see you but have to get used to being by themself. Or failing that, just ignoring the dog for certain periods of the day when you are home. I think that the most important thing with SA is treating the cause rather than managing the symptoms. Trying to get the dog to think you leaving is a good thing, or at least has it's benefits It's a tough problem, but it sounds like you are commited to helping your girl

How about enquiring about fostering a dog in rescue? The people at the rescue should provide you with support to choose an appropriate dog and manage any issues, or at least tell you if they think adding another dog is a bad idea. Edit - when you say you have tried training, what did you try specifically?

He is behaving in a way that he perceives as beneficial to him - either by getting the dog to back off or by releasing stress. Dogs aren't born understanding the rules of human society, they have to be taught And they are unlikely to take lessons in when they are in a highly arouosed state, so I believe Pretty Miss Emma is saying (if I may speak for her) is not to let your dog practice an unwanted behaviour during the training process, and gradually work on increasing the dog's threshold to reacting. Absolutely. I'm sure someone will have a recommmendation for a great Vic behaviourist

Certainly not non-shedding, but I suppose it depends on the individual - my girl barely sheds at all, my boy leaves a fair bit of hair around but then I only brush him every 3 weeks or so I have seen a lot of variation in kelpie coat types, even though they are all about the same length edit - since HTW mentioned showing that'd be a show line (bench kelpie) anyway, and I really know nothing about their coats other than they're generally longer than the working lines. So I'll edit my first post

*ahem* kelpie! (as if I was going to say anything else :p) - low to no shedding average shedder - short to medium-length hair (can hand-strip or clip if necessary) tick - social (people and dogs) Depending on the individual, some can be aloof, but some are funmonsters - easy to train/intelligent big tick - obedient tick - moderate prey-drive tick - mine will chase cats but not much else - non-hyperactive with the amount of activity you have listed above, no problem in a good individual edit - plus many can kick ass as an agility dog!

Pers - I don't think I've got enough hands to carry binoculars on the walk too! I think this is a great summary of what goes on, although I didn't have the thought fully formed in my head until you said it. Them herding dogs can be a bit 'special' ;) I think this is a good point too. A few (not all) of the staffys & staffy x's I've met hold themselves very upright and try to get some part of them (paws or chin) hooked over the shoulders of my dogs very early in the meeting - It's pretty rude, and started a fight once with my girl

I have a quite lightly coated Aussie who is SO easy to manage. Not enough coat for the show ring but it's perfect for a pet. She gets a full brush after a bath (about once every 2-3 months) and a brush of her pants and behind the ears every few weeks. If she gets dirty I just wait for her to dry and she's squeaky clean again! Oh Wuffles, if only you knew how close i've been to leaving behind my barking, hypervigilant kelpie and running off with a gorgeous Aussie who is sooking up next to me!