Weasels

Rosie the 'Doog' brand dog-walking belts are good I think, don't stick out as much as a bum-bag and has spots for poo bags and treats :) IME if the dog has a rego tag on the ranger will try to call the owner to get their dog before it goes to the pound - they don't want more dogs in the pound if they don't have to. The ute thing is weird though, our rangers have cool little slip leads that roll up into a ball :) (yes I am another person that can't just ignore a loose dog )

Agree with TW, and some dogs are far quicker to put their hackles up than others. E.g. my girl will put up her front-fuzz even if she just hears a strange noise, my boy will pretty much need a cat in his backyard to get the full mohawk going (which, honestly, impresses no-one since he just looks like he stuck his paw in an electric socket. My girl on the other hand looks like she's had shark fins grafted on. She's hardcore.) I see a number of interactions like you described between my boy and other medium-sized dogs. It is very still & close, cheek-to-cheek, then one dog will make a quick movement and check the other's reaction. If it is reciprocated they will go off and play chasey. If not and the other dog remains still usually there will be some ground-sniffing and they part ways. Sounds like Rosie had it under control :) Some dogs you can trust to get themselves out of potential trouble, some others you need to intervene (I have one of each). I don't think body-language always tranlates across breeds among dogs either, which is why high-stepping boxers, front-approaching labradors and tail-up spitzes aren't necessarily popular with other dogs despite being absolute sweethearts.

I don't dislike small children. I just rarely understand a word they say :confused:

So gentlemen really do prefer blondes ;) I think you've got all the advice you need - vigilance, management, training. re. the rough play, he could still be finding his social skills or he could be getting over-excited. Wouldn't hurt to interrupt play regularly to calm things down.

Yay! We go down to Mandurah (it's only 30 mins from us) :D It makes them so happy! If you find that 'off' switch let me know where it is

I might have asked you this before, but have you herded with him already? If so did you go East or South?

I guess the question tho is not so much can we or can't we, but why? There are so many beautiful dogs in both types that excel at what they were bred for, and the two groups are happy doing their own thing. If individual breeders are passionate about both working and showing they can make it happen, but I'm not convinced that a single register is necessary for the benefit of either the breed or the breeders.

I know of at least one DOLer attempting to represent for the tan points in the show ring :)

Yep, you're probably right. I think if you went to many working breeders and suggested moving more towards the ANKC standard they'd say 'why would I bother? he does the job' and that would be the end of it. It would take more people with a passion for both to really see what could come of it. And as with many other cases, the interpretation and preferences of the show ring seems to have pushed show lines towards a narrower range of morphologies than the standard actually calls for. The shorter, stockier solid-colour dogs dominate, despite the equal awesomeness of tan-pointed dogs :p edit: (I'm guessing their showing off their dogs is more in the form of sheep trials and started dog auctions)

I think part of it is that we're looking at quite a young breed too, so tradition isn't as strong as it is in many other breeds. I had a quick google around and only found Wingdari that identify themselves as producing both working and show excellence in the same dogs, the other breeders I found do explicitly identify themselves as one or the other. And people do want a lot out this breed - yard dogs, paddock dogs, sheep/goats/cattle etc. I think the diversity of objectives is a good thing, it's why we have breeds in the first place :) I was thinking of 2 specific people I know, who pretty much do... -- (from that pic of double gorgeousness, I'd *guess* the one on the left as the working dog as it looks a bit finer and longer in the muzzle. But I have hardly spent any time around show dogs)

Wasn't suggesting for a second you didn't Espinay! I am just trying to reconcile in my own head how it would work to put both lines into the ANKC framework and still get everything that everyone wants out of the breed. I can't see it myself Also gave myself a chuckle imagining some of the farmers I've met having a go around the show ring in their flannies and shorts :p Edit: of course I have huge respect and admiration for all the other stripes of working dog out there, I just don't know enough about them to comment!

I'm sure some breeders do try to have both Espinay. But sheepdogs are often required to do long intense days, and in a very harsh climate. It takes a special dog to have all the necessary attributes - and as much as I love 'em, and although they're good sporting dogs, I really doubt mine could cut it as real working dogs. I don't know enough about other working breeds to comment on them :) Also keep in mind the type of people that breed Australian working dogs. Not the first people you'd be expecting to be keen on dog shows ;) Edit: and I suspect the people that are trying to do both have show lines that they are getting herding titles on, not so much the other way around. Interested to hear if anyone knows of working kelpie lines that are being bred towards show conformation....

I just want to reiterate that I am in no way criticising the setting of breed standards, or breeding dogs for show. Both personally and professionally I am constantly amazed at the diversity and capabilities of our domesticated buddies. I was specifically responding to the suggestion that all dog breeding in Australia should fall under the eye of the ANKC. With reference to my own favourite breed, I think there are good reasons for having separate lines for work and show because they are breeding for different things. Breeders on DOL regularly report on the time, effort and care they put in to producing top-quality show pups, trying to get those same dogs to also have magnificent working instinct doesn't seem feasible for the breed as a whole (I'm sure there are some exceptional dogs out there tho!). Makes more sense to let the workers work and the show-ers show IMHO.

Nonetheless, it is how some owners of working dogs feel. From the koolie club website: edit: and from the WKC - http://www.wkc.org.au/Characteristics.php which makes it quite clear that their vision for kelpies diverges from the ANKC's

On the contrary, certain physical charactersitics are essential in all good working dogs. No point in having a dog with the brain for the job if structually it can't perform as required. That was the basis for most breed standards developed. Its INTERPRETATION of breed standards and the lack of testing for function that's seem 'working' and 'bench' lines develop in breeds. Yes, and I would count the necessary physical attributes under 'the ability to do the job' The sort of thing I was referring to is that the bench standard doesn't allow cream coats or white marks. If someone is using a dog to earn a living, and they have a good dog with a white chest, no way are they going to ditch that dog for that reason. I am all for breed standards and showing, but I'm just pointing out that not all breeders share the direction and ethos of the ANKC.

Well once your up and running Oso you might get a couple of kelpie visitors while we humans go and explore the lovely south of WA :D

I'm not really up to date on it either, the koolie people would be better placed to answer. They are allowed on the Sporting Register but I don't know if they are interested in getting general recognition. They keep their own register, and are non-ANKC for the same reasons that the Working Kelpie Council keeps their own register - conforming to a physical standard is not helpful (and would probably be detrimental) to having a good working dog. Which is why kelpies are divided into bench and working lines, so the people that want to show can show and the people that want them to work can continue to not care what they look like as long as they can do the job.

Exercise and some human interaction are important to me :) Being in a kennel is quite a departure from their cushy indoor life so I'd like them to get a chance to run off some stress. Also I'd prefer both of mine to be in the same run - Fox wouldn't care but Weez would fret without her. Things like temperature regulation I would discuss and ultimately have to trust the boarder to use common sense.

Wow. This statement is basically saying that the ANKC should be the ultimate arbiters of all dog-kind. That would be horrific, especially given they aren't the only register (working registers for example), and even worse, would mean the eradication of Koolies E: there are plenty of reasons for breeding dogs that have nothing to do with conforming to a show standard. Horses for courses.

From a previous thread I believe in this- I dont give my dogs attention when they are reacting in a way I dont want but I do tell them ist normal and that if they want to come up for a cuddle its fine, just like its fine to come up and have a cuddle at any other time. I dont make scary incidents a 'special' time for them but I dont with hold attention. ETA- just checking that the vet did a full exam and tried to rule out any physical reasons for the sudden reactivity? Thanks for posting this Jumabaar :) I saw someone in a recent thread say you can only reinforce behaviour, not emotions and I've been meaning to chase up more about this. But that all made perfect sense

Yes :) We had a game this morning, he was getting a bit too alert about a scruffy looking dude so we did some LAT work. Luckily I had 2 cocktail weenies in my pocket for extra motivation ;) The guy probably thought I was mad but whatever :laugh: What do you use on your boys MG? -- So many glowing recommendations! I'm going to have a big job researching tomorrow :D Thanks again guys :)

Thanks Cosmolo :) I was looking at your website last night which is why I was leaning towards the Sensible in the first place.

Yes useful! Thank you PME :) OH and I both work full time and study so we're pretty strapped for time during the week, but I am going to try walking Weez by himself with a martingale + looped leash on the weekend. Luckily the Foxdog is a trooper so she just hangs out while I am focussed on Weez, I don't know what I'd do without her! what does your trainer think? Or is it a prey driven behavior? Considering he's going for moving object such as cats as well and doesnt respect your control a front harness will do little in curbing any of this at all. I don't see how a collar is going to create a negative association for him, that is such an old fashioned notion. He needs his drive decreased to a level where he will listen and be able to accept reinforcement for good behavior. I have had long discussions about the causes with our trainer and we think there might be separate things going on, they look different. The cause is not really that important anyway, given Weez's temperament and history I am happy with our current training program and am going to stick with it. He came to us as a teenager 14 months ago with a clusterfk of issues after bouncing from shelters to homes and back again and has made great progress in that time, I am confident that we can get on top of this too :) I think I might have overstated the case here as well, I would classify his reactiveness as 'rude' rather than 'dangerous'. We are talking about 2, maximum 4 barks, and he will respond to a multitude of commands spoken in a normal voice once I get my head in gear enough to give them. And once he is about 5 metres away from the stimulus I can get a sustained 'look', sit etc. The problem here is that in our suburb bikes are allowed on the pedestrian walkways, so every now and again a teenager flies around a corner on a bike straight for us and sets our training back again. There are no bikes, scooters, or blind corners on our off-lead dog beach :) You can't even see the road. He is very appropriate with other dogs and aloof with humans. On the odd occasion some young feral decides to ride a motorbike down the beach you can see them coming a mile away and I put him on-leash.

But I don't like to walk them for any significant distance on collars, particularly since he will do a sustained pull in areas where we have seen loose cats running around ( ), so I don't like the pressure on their neck. Like I said we are working on it, and I have a one-on-one trainer engaged to deal with his his reactivity and he is doing better. Also, since I believe his reactivity is fear-based I don't want to add any more negative association with bikes & scooters, which I believe is a risk with anything pressuring the neck. A front-attach harness fits better with our overall training strategy of counter conditioning and focus work :)

I do have a martingale for my girl, I'm not sure if it will fit him though. But I don't like to walk them for any significant distance on collars, particularly since he will do a sustained pull in areas where we have seen loose cats running around ( ), so I don't like the pressure on their neck. Like I said we are working on it, and I have a one-on-one trainer engaged to deal with his his reactivity and he is doing better. But these things don't resolve overnight. We only walk/jog on the road a few times a week so LLW hasn't been a big training priority for me, I am more concerned about off-lead reliability, rightly or wrongly I like it, will give it a try too, thanks!