Weasels

That's a good point - I think it might stem from their kinda fuzzy definition of 'intrusiveness' - But then there is a scale in all things of course, blocking dogs from working sheep with a rake until they widen their flank is a form of negative reinforcement which I think is milder than a leash correction Yes. Even with my little sample size of 2 - Chess thinks that excited attention is the most awesome thing ever and a great reward, but Weez finds it scary and almost certainly a bit aversive. So I have to watch out for poisoning my cues with it on Weez.

Reading the article Luke W linked to (Thanks :)) reminded me how much I don't like the phrase "reward the good and ignore the bad", because it's just so unrealistic. I stumbled on this hierarchy of intrusiveness which I like a lot - And an explanatory article: http://lifeasahuman.com/2012/pets/bad-dog-handling-problem-behaviours/ (possibly via Zayda-Asher :), sorry terrible memory!) Edit - article by the original author (PDF) http://www.behaviorworks.org/files/articles/APDT%20What%27s%20Wrong%20with%20this%20Picture%20-%20Dogs.pdf

I believe this very much :) I think of training as an exercise in communication and interactive fun between me & the dogs, I'm not overly fussed about the end result compared to how we got there. In fact sometimes I prefer if it takes them a bit longer because it provides them more mental stimulation trying to get it right :laugh: I think of aversives as a management tool rather than a training tool, if something needs to be shut down right away - then later we can go back and train it from scratch. My feeling is that having to deliver aversives means something has gone wrong somewhere and it's then my responsibility to go back and communicate my preferred behaviour. BUT - as a hobbyist it's my luxury to be able to train like that and to be blessed with the dogs that I have. Each to their own! The only thing I don't like seeing is aversives used as a first resort before the dog has had a chance to learn and generalise all the baffling human rules they have to live by

Oh very cool Kavik! They are fascinating animals, although I do prefer to admire them from afar than up close :laugh:

Thanks Corvus that makes sense :) The Ethology courses looked interesting too! I'm doing my darndest to drift out of academic circles, so there are no problems there :laugh:

The Invasive Animals CRC are calling for applications for PhD scholarships for a variety of projects, including several studying dingoes. If you have a good honours in ecology, sociology or economic modelling it could be something to think about :) The scholarships provide a higher stipend and more time than standard PhDs, plus lots of extra training. The scholarships: http://www.invasiveanimals.com/phd-scholarship-applications/ Projects available: http://www.invasiveanimals.com/education/phd-project-opportunities/

Would you mind elaborating on this Corvus? I was looking more at the website this morning and didn't recognise any of the qualifications listed after his name so was planning on trying to find out more about him. Happy to be PM'ed if you'd prefer :) Edit: and another great post too, you guys are all very sparky this morning :D

Such good posts this morning :) And just for fun, some reward-based trained gun dogs: http://www.dogsforlife.co.uk/stud-dogs/castlemans-stud-dogs.aspx http://www.dogsforlife.co.uk/stud-dogs/levenghyl-stud-dogs.aspx

I'll certainly report back if I do it :) I thought it might be a good thing to keep me occupied between jobs next year :laugh: I wasn't particularly excited about Delta or NDTF from what I'd read either CASI is skewed +R but they don't seem as zealous about it as Delta are.

The diploma is based in Canada. I have 2 friends who've done it and are working as trainers here :) They just provide their qualifications and the link to the course on their websites so anyone can see what they have studied. Since training is unregulated I'm not sure there is any body to accept the accreditation But yeah the absence of hands-on (although Ithink you make vids with your own dogs) is a drawback.

There have been a few threads on this, if you do a search on "delta" or "ndtf" you should find a lot of info & opinions :) Here's a recent thread - http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/234178-delta-dog-training-course-ndtf-course/ Edit - I've been thinking about doing this diploma course when I'm no longer working full time - http://www.casinstitute.com/dipabt.html - but it's entirely distance. (which suits me since I'm more interested in the theory aspects than ever working as a trainer, so horses for courses :))

Hi there Luvanrensburg :) I have a massive soft spot for Westies, my grandma had some and i think they would have been the first breed I was ever exposed too :D Looking forward to pics!!

+1 explained very well thank you Cosmolo :) I was having a think about all this on my walk last week, in particular my resistance to reward Weez when he barks but still looks back to me, and my concern about "rewarding bad behaviour" even though I know his barkey-lungey reaction is not being processed at the decision-making "operant" level. So I worked my way through to the worse case scenario - I will have a dog who is responding to an environmental cue to receive a reward, which is waaaay easier to extinguish than a dog that is acting unthinkingly out of fear/frustration/play drive etc. Everything written above makes all that a little bit clearer too :)

And which area? :)

I feel like I am juuust starting to climb out of the "valley of the teenager" now, after much hard work and frustration - and I can assure you the view looks much better from this side :laugh:

I find a sporn works great with my girl's pulling but had no effect on my boy. But the Senseation works great on my boy - so it probably varies from dog to dog It might not be that simple depending on what you are trying to do. With Weez's motion reactivity I am using a program of counter-conditioning and LAT, so the front-attach harness fits nicely into that by making it easier to turn him around when he goes over threshold. It doesn't mask anything I can assure you, he still goes off his 'nana :laugh: Great programme & yes....the front attached harness of the head halti will give you more control, by not allowing him to self-reward if the situation is over threshhold...gives you a chance to move back a little. In the July Clean Run Magazine there is a very good article on self-control & they recommend you use a head halter in the early stages. It has worked amazingly well even with my terrible training of it (mostly training with 'naturally-occuring' bikes which I have no control over, and with both dogs together ) - I have trouble getting Weez to look at a bike to play LAT now, I generally get one look with some encouragement but he doesn't care enough to look twice :laugh: Skateboards and scooter are still works-in-progress tho :D

It might not be that simple depending on what you are trying to do. With Weez's motion reactivity I am using a program of counter-conditioning and LAT, so the front-attach harness fits nicely into that by making it easier to turn him around when he goes over threshold. It doesn't mask anything I can assure you, he still goes off his 'nana :laugh:

I remember your other posts - and by my count Zig should be well and truly a teenager by now? If so that probably isn't helping! :p I was getting at what Jumabaar was saying, abou building reinforcement history and focus just outside of reactivity range then trying to reduce that range, but it sounds like you are doing great with that already :) If the park itself isn't adding to the excitement then that's a good thing When I'm trying to counter/redirect excitement I like to use a toy instead of food rewards because then they can keep the level of excitement but just move it to me or the toy, rather than having to first calm down enough to focus on the food and eat etc.- so it is like I am only asking one thing (redirect) instead of two (calm down/stop, then redirect) if that makes sense (probably not - late :laugh:). Having said that tho, I still use food on walks because I can't be throwing balls all over the sidewalk, but I know I need a greater distance between me & the exciting thing than I would if I was using a toy. I don't know how well that would apply to other dogs, but it's what works for Weez & me :) He probably can't hear you, as you said, he's too excitied to process other stuff! Distance and threshold are so so important. You sound like you have a great foundation tho, and I'm sure it's just a matter of time :)

- will he chase a ball when other dogs are around? - how far away from other dogs can you get his attention? - will he work in the same park that you train in when no other dogs are there? Edit - nevermind, questions superceded by Jumabaar's excellent post :laugh:

I use a front attach harness on Weez and find it works great when he reacts, it's much easier to get his attention back to me than with a regular harness or collar, which he can just lean into :) I have a Sensation (sense-ation? Something like that) harness. I worry about their sensitive noses in a head collar, but I haven't looked into it much. Since staffs have a lot more chest than nose I would personally go for a harness :laugh:

A Belgian shepherd is a lot of dog, a breed that can be challenge even if it's a well bred dog in experienced hands. Put a carelessly bred petshop Belgian with an impulse buyer ..... Well I don't even want to think about it

Thinking of you today Teebs. RIP beautiful Atlas.

Like many people who don't live with a baby I refuse to believe she is being anything but a perfect angel :laugh: Thanks Sherlot Hopefully we can find good people in SA to help us develop our herding as much as you and Steph have over here :) So far Piper has been lovely, so fingers crossed!

Fantastic :) Looks like you've got a couple of camera-shy ones there ;) Love the flat-out meerkat :laugh:

Endurance snoozing.