Weasels

Under that description then Weez has drive up the wazoo :laugh: He is quite prone to getting 'stuck' on things in typical sheep-dog manner, to the point where I've pretty much given up on having a completely reliable recall with him and have settled for a reliable down-stay instead, so he can stay stuck on whatever but still be in a safe position. Also, being the uncoordinated thing he is, will do all manner of tripping and tumbling and still be aiming for the ball. You can almost see the conflict in his eyes when he is e.g. standing next to his ball or at the gate into the stock yard and you ask him to process something different. He looks like his little fuzzy head is going to explode Also, he had to do a full day of herding demo at the royal show recently, despite being terrified of most of the things the show has in abundance - strangers, kids, loud noises, fluttery things, plus we were right next to a rollercoaster But, as assured by our trainer, as soon as he laid eyes on the stock nothing else existed for him :)

I didn't read it that way Huski - I'm less fussed about getting Weez to tug because he's never going to be an agility dog; he has the turning circle of a bus! For obedience and tricks, food + ball work for him and for herding the reward is intrinsic. I like tugs as a nice neat reward that keep the energy level up but they aren't really necessary for anything I do with Weez. Thankfully Chess is rewarded by almost everything under the sun so if I get near an agility club again there'll be no problems there :laugh:

Ok thanks :) Weez certainly had to learn that chasing the ball was fun, for a long time he would just chase Chess around but I didn't like that so much because there was no payoff (catch) and it didn't always hold his attention in the face of distraction. Chasing the ball now definitely puts him into kelpie-mode and he is stuck on that thing like glue, which gives us a great opportunity to practice the "command over instinct" that he needs in herding :)

Thanks guys, nice to know I'm not just being totally dense :laugh: Happy to admit I don't feel like I really understand 'drive' even though I can regognise certain mental states in the kelps where they may be less responsive and more instinct-driven in given situations So would you think Weez has drive from the description I posted? Also, thinking about your and Kavik's post, when he does bring us a tug it looks much more like just an attempt to engage/play with us that he has learnt works rather than the intense "kill stare" that Chessy gets :p

Last time I did a first aid course it was drilled into us that we have absolutely no obligation to act if we didn't feel comfortable. How would you even enforce that? Makes no sense.

I don't think anyone was expecting the housemates to be good dog handlers - hence the concern. On the face of it, the idea is one that could have gone either way, with the dog either stressed and treated like a toy for the housemates amusement or the way it appears to have gone, as a positive message for rescue. The friend who wrote the letter is a professional dog trainer and was concerned about a specific incident, and was reasonably happy with their response. This was at the very start of the time that Delilah was in the house so hadn't yet become clear how it would go. And the person who wrote the letter had never heard of AWLQ, being from another state, so had no reason to understand they were an ethical and careful rescue - since certainly not all rescues have the reputation that AWLQ appear to have.

I've always thought of Weez as fairly drivey, because he gets stuck on things and can be quite intense, but then that could be as much low biddability as anything :laugh: And yes, confidence certainly isn't something Weez is brimming with either

I'm a bit confused - I don't think of drive as something that a dog either has or doesn't have. Just from observing the kelps, Weez has weak prey drive in general but excellent herding drive. He just doesn't "see" anything smaller than a runner duck (as evidenced when he once had a mouse run between his legs, totally oblivious ). When he wants to tug tho, it is definitely rewarding to him. Chess has great prey drive and will mouse like a terrier, she also had good herding instincts and definitely knows the difference between things to kill and things to herd. I would classify her as a "high drive dog". Since herding is a modified prey drive, should I be thinking of these as separate things? Is Weez a high drive dog based on how intense and zoned in he gets on stock, or is he a low drive dog because he doesn't tug reliably or chase prey?

A friend of mine wrote a letter to AWL after one episode in the beginning when some of the boys were handling her inappropriately and she was displaying stress signals. They responded promptly (with what I'm sure was a form letter) saying she had been extensively temp tested and the housemates briefed on dog interaction etc. I don't have channel 10(?) here so I'm not sure if the humans stuck with their instructions or not but it sounds like it from the responses here Many many many dogs, especially shelter dogs that may not have been well socialised as pups! I have one lying on my floor right now who would be hiding in a corner trying to disappear into the wall Edit - AWL also said they had the ability to remove her from the house at any time they considered it to be in the best interests of Delilah, which is somewhat comforting :)

Why else do we do dog sports but to build our realtionship and spend time learning and having fun with our dogs :) I must have an unusual Kelpie then. I haven't played tug with him for months. But just went outside to check, he tugs like a demon. My girl kelpie who is mad for tugging is much less mouthy on stock than my other kelpie who is an "if I feel like it" tugger

What a great thread :) I have one of each: a velcro dog who is always looking for an opportunity to engage with me, and my trouble-monster who really had stuff-all value for humans when we first adopted him. Chess (velcro) was ball obsessed when we got her, so she never strayed far away lest she miss an opportunuty to chase a ball. Lack of ball throwing just meant she ran ahead a short ways, turned around and gave you the most intense, hopeful stare that it seems few humans can resist (hell it is so engaging it even got her out of the shelter!). At first we utilised it, and her training proceeded at a cracking pace, but then when we started to teach her "have a rest" it took aaaages. Teaching her to do something was (is) a snap, teaching her to relax probably took 6 months! But eventually she's learnt that when I say "have a rest" no more ball throwing (and hence no more training) is going to happen, to the extent she will now sometimes just drop the ball where it is and go sniff and be normal. The ball itself has become less reinforcing on it's own, and the value for the person+ball has gone up. FWIW teaching her this "nothing's going on" cue hasn't diminished her responsiveness one bit, if I make a clicky sound (my 'change direction' cue) or say her name she is back and engaged in a heartbeat. Weez is another kettle of fish entirely. Until fairly recently he had higher value for Chess than for me (and probably still does in some contexts). The one thing that really pushed his training ahead was getting him to chase his own ball rather than just chasing Chess around. This happened fortuitously when Chess was convalescing after being attacked by a mastiff and Weez got a good run of just him & me walks. The other thing that helped with Weez is heaps of reinforcement for uncued "hanging out" - when he checks in or walks at heel without me saying anything he gets a treat about 80-85% of the time (and praise the other times). We do this a little bit every morning, along with regular recall etc. training, and he is getting better and better :)

Nope you've got me there :laugh: I would expect the level of genetic difference to vary according to what kind of DNA was looked at, but the relative differences (across subspecies cf. across breeds) is interesting :) Yes dogs are a subspecies Canis lupus familiaris alongside Canis lupus dingo, Canis lupus hallstromi (New Guinea Singing dog - although it could be argued these are a type of dingo) and a bunch of local subspecies of wolf

:laugh: okay I might be able to dig some stuff out tomorrow. The most recent one I read is not published yet tho Multiple species concepts have been around for some time, but the main reason they were developed was for elusive or weird critters where we can't observe their mating, identify different life cycles or if they have some asexual reproduction etc. With straightforward, sexually reproducing mammals like canids I can't see any reason to resort to more complicated concepts. I'm pretty sure they pass the test under the phylogenetic species concept too by being a distinct and reciprocally monophyletic clade

Current dogs are thought to have been domesticated about 19,000 years ago (after an earlier failed attempt about 30,000 ya) As a zoologist I consider them the same species, and the taxonomy in most common usage does too We must be reading different literature :laugh: The DNA studies I've read indicate delineation 100,000 years ago but put domestication at 10,000 years. Can you PM me some authors please as I would like to read further. Thanks! Aw man, you mean I can't just talk crap on the internet without sources? Dammit :p :laugh: On my lunchbreak so don't have my referencing skills up to snuff, but - http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2011/08/110819-dogs-wolves-russia-domestication-animals-science-evolution/ Under the Biological Species Concept dogs and wolves fail at the first hurdle, by gettin' busy and having fertile pups :) Edit - this looks interesting (but inconclusive) too - http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/05/15/1203005109

Current dogs are thought to have been domesticated about 19,000 years ago (after an earlier failed attempt about 30,000 ya) As a zoologist I consider them the same species, and the taxonomy in most common usage does too

The kelps get "breakfast kongs" of frozen kibble/sardines/yoghurt with a roo stick shoved down the middle to make it a 'kongsicle' :) They love it and it helps them settle down just as I'm leaving for work.

FWIW I love hearing little stories about Erik :) This thread has made me realise how lucky I am - I have one fearful but lazy dog and one busy, alert but confident dog - if I had both the fearful and the busy in the same dog I would be in a world of hurt!! As long as we accept that dogs have a personality there must be a continuum of personality traits among dogs, which will generally follow a bell curve distribution. The tails of the distribution will be rare, but extreme

My herding trainer almost doesn't believe me that Weez has problems with reactivity and timidity/nervousness, because as soon as he gets out in those paddocks and around the stock he is the picture of dogginess :) Even better now he is reliable enough around the stock that he can be let off-lead when it's not his turn to train - he can sniff, dig, roll (oh god so much rolling) etc. and it's just awesome to see him so settled and happy :) It's once we get him back to the suburbs with all the weird shiny flooring and garbage trucks and kids on inexplicable noisy rolling devices that he gets the wiggins. Hopefully only a few more months before we're living on acreage and he'll get to 'be a kelpie' every day

I worry a bit though that being over-tired reduces Weez's ability to cope with unexpected stimuli I haven't been able to tease out what helps/doesn't help him fully because there are too many variables (including ongoing training and counter-conditioning) but the only sure-fire trigger I know is if he's reacted once on a walk, he will be looking for things to react to again

I've had a girl squeal and hide behind her boyfriend once when my black & tan boy was trotting in her direction for a sniff. Being the nervous soul that he is, he hightailed it away from her before I got a chance to call him. No-one has ever reacted negatively to my brown dog, even though she is much more likely to approach strangers (to size up their willingness to become involved in a game of fetch).

Oh how scary I'm assuming your dog is black? Some people get weird about black dogs

Ok I think we're talking at cross-purposes. I was talking about people who just bought one thinking it was going to be a magic quick-fix without any more training needed; and there are corners of the internet where prongs are spoken about in reverential tones such that I can see where people would get that impression. Yes I agree that engaging a behavioural trainer shows a level of commitment that should be applauded. Hence my edit.

I'm not going along with the argument that just because they aren't that interested it's cool to let them do whatever. 100% agree with Cosmolo, these are the people who can least afford to use serious equipment on their dogs since by nature something that does all people claim is going to be a high-risk-high-reward strategy, with highest risk at lower levels of knowledge and skills. FWIW I don't think prongs should be banned. Perhaps only sold through trainers with an accompanying session or something.

I don't think anyone who's followed your fosters could suggest you were a lazy trainer KTB And, circling back to my original point, being a force-free trainer doesn't mean you are a wet blanket with half-trained dogs who fail under pressure either.

Lack of interest is not a reason that is going to get any sympathy from me. I think Superminty articulated the argument for prong collars well, assuming they work as well as claimed. I'm also sure, however, that there are plenty of people who hit, kick and yank their dogs to minimise inconvenience to themselves and the time they spend with their dog. I don't think a 'prong licence' is the worst idea ever, if it directs people who see it as a 'quick fix' to someone with a bit more knowledge to explain what it can and can't do.