Weasels

A suggestion. As with everything I say. I am open to debate and willing to change my mind according the balance of evidence when it is presented. Also a reference to forum rule number 2.

Perhaps "I believe this doesn't apply to LGDs because..." and some explanation of your position would be a better starting point for discussion that multiple uses of an accusatory "you" More a result of not wanting to use the word 'wince' twice in one sentence. More accurately, when I meet someone at the dog park who refers to themselves as a pack leader I am wary to hear what they think that means. If it's merely a matter of a difference of definition of the word that doesn't seem to warrant a personal attack.

Well that was dismissive and rude I already noted that this pattern is also observed in wild and feral dogs, who are in a fight for their lives. More importantly, it's not my definition. It's the definition of researchers studying animal ecology which has been overlaid on a domestic animal situation with all kinds of strange results.

Ah there's the point of difference. I don't believe dogs see themselved in a set place of hierarchy within a group. I think it is more fluid than that and can vary among contexts, place and the resource in question. To use the kelps as an example again - as anyone who's met them can attest, Chess is kind of a massive b*tch and Weez is an complete weenie pants. A casual observer would suggest that Chess is the dominant dog over Weez, but observing their behaviour over a variety of situations shows that Weez will go after things he wants and will even cause Chess to abandon things (bones mostly) that she wants by sheer annoyingness. And vice-versa. And it's not just domestic dogs either - dingoes in high resource situations like having access to a rubbish tip won't display any discernable linear hierarchy. They just go after what they want at the time.

Dx I'm going to be lazy and quote myself It's more theory of dominance as a personality trait rather than a relationship that I consider outdated. Some rare dogs may have an unusually high value for most resources and attempt to exert their access rights to almost everything, which could be labelled "a dominant dog". By then it's just getting into semantics tho. The idea that dogs view us in the same way they do their own species given how woeful we are at the subtleties of body language also has me suspicious O_o Edit - Another good series of articles https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/tag/canine-social-hierarchy

I think there's another issue of the terminology having been poisoned. Like Cosmolo referenced yesterday talking about 'balanced trainers' - those words make me wince too not because of what they mean at face value but the way some people have twisted it. The words 'pack leader' make me wary too. Of course I think a confident and consistent approach to interacting with dogs is important, but because of all the alpha rolling and people thinking their demeanour is an appropriate substitute for training that goes along with it, I worry when I hear it. Sometimes when followed up there is a sensible interpretation like in this thread, sometimes not. edited for clarity

Oh dear! Obviously I think it's old school since I made the comment :laugh: Having studied canid ecology at the postgraduate level before I ever got my own dogs, I came in with some data about how feral dogs/pariah dogs/dingoes act in the wild, and it didn't fit with a linear hierarchy, even among their own species. Since I now have my own doggy specimens to observe in their natural habitat (the couch apparently ) I am even less inclined to believe it. As i said in the other thread, I think the actions that 'alpha theory' recommends can be good. Dogs waiting at the door for you to go out first teaches self-control and basic obedience. I think eating first is a waste of time. I think alpha rolling is awful. The most damaging thing I think it does tho is setting up an adversarial relationship between dog and owner Interested to hear other POV's tho :)

Really? Oh The methods that result from the thinking aren't universally harmful (teaching dogs patience, self-control and the 'rules of the house' - all good) but the underlying philosiphy is demonstrably false. Beautiful sunny day out so I'm going to leave it to Kathy Sdao to provide deets: http://www.kathysdao.com/articles/Forget_About_Being_Alpha_in_Your_Pack.html Edit: I will add that "that dog is dominant...." is not a complete sentence. Dominance is a relationship established over time between 2 individuals for priority access to a resource. My girl asserts dominance over the water bowl. My boy asserts dominance over getting onto the car first, because he wants it more. Neither of these pieces of information help me if I want to train a specific behaviour. I just train it.

The kelps can lie on whatever surface they darn well please if it means they will settle in and be quiet for a few hours :laugh:

I must be in a weird w/l Aussie hotspot - we have a Waikikamukau, 2 Flatouts, a Gaitmaster and a w/l import at training regularly :laugh: Every single one of them is just lovely

Wow, we're still talking about pack hierarchies in 2012? On a dog forum? Agree and agree. Using a slip lead to get her off the bed is a safer option. Teaching an "off" command even more so. Excellent behavioural trainers in the Norther Suburbs are K9 Positive Works http://www.facebook.com/K9PositiveWorks Or Paw Prints Pet Training http://pawprintspettraining.com.au/

I've used food in herding training. I had to improve Weez's heeling near stock so we could approach the set sheep before an outrun without him pushing them out of position. We just did a few sessions walking back and forth past the sheep teaching him that we're paying attention to ME now and all fixed :) I've used a ball to teach Chess when it's not her turn to work stock to focus on something else too. I can't imagine any working kelpie being genuinely distracted by food when they're in work mode! But as pointed out, the opportunity to work is generally the reward in itself.

Agree! I don't find it any more burdensome to grab a handful of treats and a ball along with poo bags when I go out -- and I don't take treats because I have to, I take them so I can grab any training opportunity to provide mental stimulation for the dogs and so we can both have a fun training session :)

That's awesome Oso :) The main thing that worries me about titre testing is not being accepted by training clubs and boarding kennels, it is nice to have kennels out there run by sensible & knowledgeable persons such as yourself :)

Well that saved me some typing :laugh: Exactly what I was going to say. And yes the "reward-based training means just throwing treats" mindset bugs me too, I spend lots of time making complicated evaluations about what is motivating and likely to motivate my dogs at any given time, and planning management scenarios to avoid potential trouble. I don't think this is the only way to train my dogs. It's the way I've chosen based on how I want to interact with them and where I have chosen to develop certain skills. I've trained a dog successfully on a check when I was young, I know it works. I'm also quite sure the same dog could have been trained in other ways. Bad training is bad training, blaming the method makes no sense. TD you've been subjected to people who don't really understand what they're doing or why

I know some trainers like to use food at least in the beginning because it helps the trainer to guage the stress level of the dogs in a group situation. If the dogs isn't eating that's an immediate red flag that they need to spend more time with that dog & handler to get the comfort level up/move further away/whatever -- FWIW I think you get good at the method you practice. And there are bad trainers all over the spectrum of methods. I'd rather get in a trainer that is specialised and well-versed in the method of training that the kelps already have a basis in, than a 'jack of all trades' who may be able to use a prong but that is of no use to me because I'm not going to use one. I'm quite happy to "piss around with a positive trainer" with my reactive dog because I know that the fallout for correcting him for displaying fear is going to to be worse and harder to resolve than just treating the problem at the source to start with.

Most of the ones I see are imports :) There was a litter earlier this year between a US import and the granddaughter (I think) of a Tri Ch which would have been heaven if I was in the market for a puppy/herding Aussie! As a consolation I still get to cuddle with one of the pups from the litter sometimes, she's already a tiny superstar :D This is what I think the other times :laugh: though inserting Mal or BC instead of Aussie Shepherd. There is something about the look in the Kelpie's eyes . . . There really is isn't there :) OH was having a bad day today so I sent in the kelpies and suddenly all was forgotten :) Also I think I should get the hang of training a stong-eyed dog before trying to switch to a loose-eyed dog and getting myself all confused! Also buying well-bred, well raised dogs I'd miss out on all the "fun" of dealing with the myriad of issues the rescue dogs came with :laugh:

I'm going to go against the grain and say if I wanted a dog for competition, I would get a working line Australian Shepherd rather than a Mal They just have biddability down to the bone. Part of me thinks that would be too easy tho :laugh: And for better or worse, my heart belongs to kelpies :)

I use a sporn harness on Chess and it works great :) I honestly don't think she's been on a leash for about 6 weeks so obviously loose-leash walking training isn't a priority :p But when we do use it, it does what it says on the box and gets us from A to B with much less pulling than a flat collar. I'm sure in the past I've taken her to classes with it on and haven't had comment, but they were small classes with ppl I knew fairly well :)

If you think of anything let me know then we can both use it :laugh:

I once had a young man in a car just yell out "kelpiieeesss!!" while I was out walking I still have no idea how to respond to that :laugh: And Mr Weasels may have asked about saddles in the past while I quietly facepalmed behind his back

Yep you tried :) Can be hard to be the lone voice sometimes, since most other people they would be meeting wouldn't see any problem with it. Yeah work, gotta be done by 8 No word on sheepies yet - but on a related note I did recommend a newcomer to the area with a teenage GSD to try herding :) Can't have too many shepherds around :D

Is it weird I almost feel sorry for the boy! It's not uncommon around here tho. She certainly isn't the only nice person in the area who wants a litter out of their dog before desexing. And I've encountered an offleash on-heat bitch on the beach before too. It's just not seen as particularly unacceptable 'out in the world' I'll occasionally ask a few questions about papers or similar but I really don't think it'll change much Edit - definitley up for more fetch :) I'll be down there 7am tomorrow if you're feeling early-birdey :D

I've never spoken to them, they've just been pointed out to us by some other GSD-owning friends of ours :) They seem to do the evening park shift whereas the kelps and I do the morning shift so haven't crossed paths much. I do wonder tho how far that muttley boy ran to get to her!

She's been onlead the few times I've seen her Wonder why they suddenly thought now was a good time to let her offleash Was that the park behind the bowls club?